Eli Manning is NOT an elite quarterback and anyone who says otherwise is...

[Red Storm]

He's a good quarterback.

/thread

 

[Oil]

Since 2006 Bree's was in the playoffs 4 of 6 years, missing it in the 2007 and 2008 seasons.

Since 2006 Eli Manning was in the playoffs 4 out of 6 years. Missing 2009 and 2010.

Fixed

 

[classy]

... is a prisoner of the moment. Seriously. This is ridiculous. All I hear EVERYONE talking about on ESPN, local radio, fans etc... is how Eli Manning has to be considered an elite quarterback now. This is ridiculous. Eli Manning is this. A good quarterback, probably top 10, who appears to be clutch right now. But overall, from a talent standpoint, he is not a top 5 QB. He's at the bottom of the top 10, imo.


Let me illustrate my point.

First of all, I think we can all agree he has a pretty solid stable of wide receivers. Probably one of the top teams. Cruz has turned out to be a star and Hakeem Nicks is a very talented WR.

He was nominated to the pro bowl in the NFC. At the time of him being voted in he had 26 TD's and 16 INT's. Those aren't ELITE numbers, in my opinion. Granted, he did go on a nice run the last 2 games and into the playoffs. I'll give him that. But to call him elite we have to look at him as a total player. An elite QB to me takes a team that isn't very good and makes them a playoff team, ala Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.

Eli over the last 4 years hovers just below a 62% completion percentage, serviceable but NOT elite. He threw for 5000 yards this year. So what. So did 3 other guys, in a time when it had hardly ever been done before. The only thing that proves to me is defenses give up more passing yards to EVERY QB, not just Eli. Oh and he threw a ton of passes. 590 attempts, by far the most in his career.

The previous two years he threw 58 TD's and 39 INT's. They aren't horrible numbers, but the INT's take him out of the elite category. As he has shown over his career, he is a good, serviceable QB that makes a lot of mistakes.


And my last point, the most important. If the 49ers hadn't fumbled two punt returns and basically gave the win to the Giants (who did VERY little offensively) the Giants would be out of the playoffs and nobody would be talking about him being elite. But because the 49ers screwed up and the Giants defense is pretty damn good, people give Eli more credit than he deserves. He had very little to do with that win.


Eli is a good quarterback with great talent around him. If you put Phillip Rivers, Matthew Stafford or a good deal of other quarterbacks on that team, you'd probably be in a pretty similar position. Eli is good. Eli is not elite.

You sir an idiot. I am a die hard Giants fan and have been for almost 30 years. First off great talent? Eli has played behind make shift o-lines for the last decade. His wideouts have been servicable at best. He had Plaxico and Shockey. Shock was always less than 100%. And he played with Burress only 4 years and they won a Super Bowl. These two we have now are 1st and 2nd year players. I like them both, but Eli puts the ball where they are able to use their strengths to make plays.

The running game has been so so at best in Eli's career. He has never had Edgerin James or an LT. Also Tom Coughlin is not a top coach and if not for Eli's coolness under pressure, he would have been gone a long time ago. Eli has accomplished things as a starting qb winning on the road beyond anyone in the history of the NFL. They say moments are what make good players great players. Well show me where any qb has seized those moments better than Eli.

He may not be flashy, he may not have the hot wife, or throw for 5000 yards, but outside of Farve, Montana, or Brady, none have been better in the clutch. And he still has a lot of football left.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Eli borders on elite. I waver between including him in that group and not including him in that group. I haven't read the entire thread, but I think that if you include Roethlisberger in that group, you have to include Eli.

 

[purbeast0]

Phillip. Rivers. Is. A. Hack.

Get over it.

You can't discount Eli for having a good support staff and *not* discount Rivers for the same. What has San Diego done since LT? Oh, that's right...Jack Schitt.

I'd take John fucking Kitna over Phillip Rivers.

wow, great counterpoint...

 

[sactoking]

I would also say that Eli isn't elite. He's good, but he's not elite. Opposing coaches don't go into games against Eli thinking that they need to limit him because they can't stop him like they do with Brees, Brady, et al.

I don't buy the Super Bowl argument, either. When they won in XLII they had a very good running game, an outstanding defense, and Eli was average at best. He was a caretaker of that offense. They won because of other players and a scrub who couldn't stick in the league making one of the most miraculous catches ever.

This year they have the best 3-receiver group in the league and they started winngin when the defense began to play well. About a quarter of the starting QBs in the league would be in XLVI on that team playing they way they are right now.

Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Phil Simms, Jim McMahon, etc were all SB winning QBs and I don't think many people would classify any of them as "elite".

 

[NeoV]

sports threads on here always crack me up

Elite QB's - Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton Manning

Really good QB's - Rivers, Eli Manning..

After that - you have some decent QB's on good teams - Big Ben, Romo, Vick (maybe?), Stafford

Then you have a bunch of guys who really aren't all that different from one another - vets like Hasselbach/Palmer, younger guys like Ryan, etc.

Anyone who says they would take John Kitna over Phillip Rivers should automatically be banned from posting in any sports thread, ever.

Anyone who says Eli Manning is 'a bottom 10' QB - ditto

Anyone remember a certain QB from Green Bay who also happened to throw a decent number of INT's? Despite that, I'd say he was pretty good - and no, I'm not putting Eli in that category, but he's still really good.

Oh - and by the way - this year he tied his brother and Johnny Unitas for the most TD's passes thrown in one season in the 4th quarter - that's a pretty impressive stat.

Ok, I lied, one more thing - The Giants WR's are good - but best in the league? Hardly.

 

[Cuda1447]

You sir an idiot. I am a die hard Giants fan and have been for almost 30 years. First off great talent? Eli has played behind make shift o-lines for the last decade. His wideouts have been servicable at best. He had Plaxico and Shockey. Shock was always less than 100%. And he played with Burress only 4 years and they won a Super Bowl. These two we have now are 1st and 2nd year players. I like them both, but Eli puts the ball where they are able to use their strengths to make plays.

The running game has been so so at best in Eli's career. He has never had Edgerin James or an LT. Also Tom Coughlin is not a top coach and if not for Eli's coolness under pressure, he would have been gone a long time ago. Eli has accomplished things as a starting qb winning on the road beyond anyone in the history of the NFL. They say moments are what make good players great players. Well show me where any qb has seized those moments better than Eli.

He may not be flashy, he may not have the hot wife, or throw for 5000 yards, but outside of Farve, Montana, or Brady, none have been better in the clutch. And he still has a lot of football left.

So you are saying that Eli is great because he has won a bunch of road playoff games. You realize he has had more opportunity to win road games because his teams are always lower seeds, right?

As far as moments making great players. What is Eli's signature moment? It's that freaking lucky ass catch by David Tyree. That's it. That's the moment he has. He didn't have any last week, that's for damn sure.

 

[goog40]

Eli, master of the chuck and duck.

 

[Cuda1447]

sports threads on here always crack me up

Elite QB's - Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton Manning

Really good QB's - Rivers, Eli Manning..

After that - you have some decent QB's on good teams - Big Ben, Romo, Vick (maybe?)

Then you have a bunch of guys who really aren't all that different from one another - vets like Hasselbach/Palmer, younger guys like Ryan, etc.

Anyone who says they would take John Kitna over Phillip Rivers should automatically be banned from posting in any sports thread, ever.

Anyone who says Eli Manning is 'a bottom 10' QB - ditto

Anyone remember a certain QB from Green Bay who also happened to throw a decent number of INT's? Despite that, I'd say he was pretty good - and no, I'm not putting Eli in that category, but he's still really good.

I agree with you about your list of elite QB's, I just think the good qb's list is bigger and more congested, which is why you can at least make an argument for him being at the bottom of top 10.

Elite:
Brady
Peyton
Brees
Rodgers

Good:
Rivers
Stafford
Romo
Vick
Rothlisberger
Schaub
Matt Ryan
and maybe even Cam Newton

The order of those guys is highly debateable.

 

[Cuda1447]

I agree with you about your list of elite QB's, I just think the good qb's list is bigger and more congested, which is why you can at least make an argument for him being at the bottom of top 10.

Elite:
Brady
Peyton
Brees
Rodgers

Good:
Rivers
Stafford
Romo
Vick
Rothlisberger
Schaub
Matt Ryan
and maybe even Cam Newton

The order of those guys is highly debateable.

Actually, I'd probably take Vick off that list or put him at the very bottom. The only reason he is included is because of his running capabilities. As a pure passer he isn't there.

 

[IAteYourMother]

Actually, I'd probably take Vick off that list or put him at the very bottom. The only reason he is included is because of his running capabilities. As a pure passer he isn't there.

Cam Newton probably wouldn't be as effective either as a pure passer. Running is a part of the game, and Vick is a good enough passer with his legs to be a good QB.

If anything, I'd take Matt Ryan off that list.

 

[classy]

So you are saying that Eli is great because he has won a bunch of road playoff games. You realize he has had more opportunity to win road games because his teams are always lower seeds, right?

As far as moments making great players. What is Eli's signature moment? It's that freaking lucky ass catch by David Tyree. That's it. That's the moment he has. He didn't have any last week, that's for damn sure.

Lucky catch, lol. Did you even see the play? Eli should have been on his back. 99% of all the qbs in the game today would have not been able to get that throw off. Your arguments are dumb,with no substance. Eli is an elite qb today, period. He is not a Peyton or Brady. But he is in that group, but in the lower part. Just the fact he is able to handle playing in NYC is pretty good too. Its just foolish to deny Eli is in an ellite group.

If the game is on the line, I am looking for the best and Eli is in that group. Only a fool would say he is not.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Actually, I'd probably take Vick off that list or put him at the very bottom. The only reason he is included is because of his running capabilities. As a pure passer he isn't there.

Some of us were crucified last year when we said Vick wasn't elite and was a mediocre passer. Still waiting for an apology from some posters....

Oh, and you're nuts for not having Eli on that list.

 

[Cuda1447]

Cam Newton probably wouldn't be as effective either as a pure passer. Running is a part of the game, and Vick is a good enough passer with his legs to be a good QB.

If anything, I'd take Matt Ryan off that list.

Well, Ryan can be argued for sure. Statistically he is just as good as the others, if not better. 28/9 and 29/12 td/int the last two years. Those are better numbers than Eli. Do I think he's as good as Eli... probably not. But he's close. And he's a couple years younger, so he still has some maturing to do.

 

[rcpratt]

Lucky catch, lol. Did you even see the play? Eli should have been on his back. 99% of all the qbs in the game today would have not been able to get that throw off. Your arguments are dumb,with no substance. Eli is an elite qb today, period. He is not a Peyton or Brady. But he is in that group, but in the lower part. Just the fact he is able to handle playing in NYC is pretty good too. Its just foolish to deny Eli is in an ellite group.

If the game is on the line, I am looking for the best and Eli is in that group. Only a fool would say he is not.

Obviously you're right and we're all fools.

 

[Cuda1447]

Some of us were crucified last year when we said Vick wasn't elite and was a mediocre passer. Still waiting for an apology from some posters....

I agreed with you last year. He's definitely not an elite passer and last year was another example of people being prisoners of the moment. If you want to evaluable how good a player is, you have to look at their total body of work. If you don't, you are just being biased, looking at statistics that favor your position. Vick is an ok quarterback, made better by his running ability. He also benefited from being in a fantastic system for what he is last year. I honestly believe Andy Reid would make a lot of average QB's look very good. I think he made McNabb look better than he is (although McNabb was pretty good) and I think he did the same thing with Vick last year. Kolb would have probably looked like a good QB in his system too, but it looks like Kolb is really a dud.

 

[purbeast0]

Lucky catch, lol. Did you even see the play? Eli should have been on his back. 99% of all the qbs in the game today would have not been able to get that throw off. Your arguments are dumb,with no substance. Eli is an elite qb today, period. He is not a Peyton or Brady. But he is in that group, but in the lower part. Just the fact he is able to handle playing in NYC is pretty good too. Its just foolish to deny Eli is in an ellite group.

If the game is on the line, I am looking for the best and Eli is in that group. Only a fool would say he is not.

hahahaha wow thanks for the laugh. so much fail in this post.

 

[Cuda1447]

Lucky catch, lol. Did you even see the play? Eli should have been on his back. 99% of all the qbs in the game today would have not been able to get that throw off. Your arguments are dumb,with no substance. Eli is an elite qb today, period. He is not a Peyton or Brady. But he is in that group, but in the lower part. Just the fact he is able to handle playing in NYC is pretty good too. Its just foolish to deny Eli is in an ellite group.

If the game is on the line, I am looking for the best and Eli is in that group. Only a fool would say he is not.

Are you saying Tyree catching the ball against his hat in double coverage isn't luck?!? OK. Fine. 99% of QB's wouldn't have been able to evade that rush? Vick, Rothlisberger, Newton, Tebow and maybe Rodgers, Alex Smith and Tony Romo would all have had a good chance at evading it. A lot of elite QB's wouldn't have been put in the position of scrambling for their life though. How often do you see Peyton or Brady scrambling around like a maniac throwing up prayers? Not very often because they make the reads and throws early, like elite qb's are supposed to.

Eli playing in NYC has NOTHING to do with how good of a QB he is. If you are saying he can handle pressure because of that, alright, maybe. Maybe. But that's a pretty shitty argument for him being an elite QB.

 

[classy]

Obviously you're right and we're all fools.

Great players win. Period. This guy wins and he has done it time and time again no matter how much the deck has been stacked against him. All these other better qbs, what have they won? And he has not had all this elite talent like some of the other guys.

Sports is full of guys with great numbers, but at the end of the day the Bernard Kings, Dominique Wilkins, Jim Kellys, and Dan Fouts of the world will never truly get their just due, because at the end of the day they didn't win. Thats just the reality of sports..........

 

[Away]

Phillip Rivers is a fucking hack.

Rivers career stats:

TD-INT 160-77
Yards 23,975
QB Rating 95.2

Yeah those are hack like numbers.

Must be a bitter Bronctards fan or something. :awe:

 

[Gothgar]

tl;dr

Giants def shouldn't have won.

 

[NeoV]

Final thought - you can't say Eli's WR's make him good, but then praise Stafford - I'm pretty sure I could throw TD's, in the NFL today, if I have Calvin Johnson as one of my WR's - the guy is beast.

Not saying Stafford isn't good -but man it helps to have a freak at WR like him - the Giants WR's are nothing like that.

 

[classy]

And I see people talking about Rivers, Cutler, and Romo. These guys have been awful, just terrible in big games and in the playoffs. Romo has won one playoff game.

And this stuff about Eli's great WRs is just laughable. Burress wasn't even considered a top talent and Victor Cruz was UNDRAFTED, lol. Thats right, undrafted. So which came first the the chicken or the egg.

 

[Exterous]

So, Tim Tebow was elite this year and Rodgers was not?

Eli Manning is elite compared to Tebow but has to win this SB and/or have a couple of more years like this one to be considered elite.

You don't become an elite league quarterback after only one year. I can't believe you would try to argue otherwise.

Besides - you agreed with my other point