Electronic Valves?

[Scootin159]

Ok, first let me explain how:

The valves would work in a similar fashion to how speakers work. You apply a current & the coil pushes the valve down, release the current & the valve would close.

Now as for the benefits:

No timing belt (less maitenance, less resistance (more hp))
No camshaft (less resistance (more hp))
Infinatly variable valve timing - you can have a very agressive cam profile in high rpm's, while maintaining a smooth idle (more hp, improved gas milage)

With just a position sensor (in place of the typical distributer...would probably have to run off flywheel as there would be no camshaft to drive the distributer), a MAF sensor, o2 sensor & throttle position you should easily be able to program in the right stuff into the car's computer for FI, spark plug timing (done with individual coils in place of distributer) and the above mentioned valves, right?

Alright, now you can tear my idea to pieces...

 

[NutBucket]

What's wrong w/ hydraulic lifters? That's what they use in F1.

 

[Scootin159]

Originally posted by: NutBucket
What's wrong w/ hydraulic lifters? That's what they use in F1.

Care to explain, not too familiar with them.

 

[ThisIsMatt]

Those would have to be some strong speakers

Have you ever seen/felt/compressed a valve spring? Valves demand quite a bit of force to seal well in their environment...

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: NutBucket
What's wrong w/ hydraulic lifters? That's what they use in F1.

Hydraulic lifters are quite complex and somewhat unreliable for general consumer cars (even sporty cars). Also they are quite expensive.

However you electronic vavle idea seems quite interesting. I doubt it'd take up a lot of space and it seems quite efficient. However, what about the speed at which they ope and close? Will they be able to sustain 7000+ RPMs ?

 

[NutBucket]

Well, they're not the same as what you're proposing, but they help with some of the problems associated w/ solid lifters. What you're proposing would be pretty slick but the execution would be inredibly difficult IMHO.

 

[NutBucket]

Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt
Those would have to be some strong speakers

Have you ever seen/felt/compressed a valve spring? Valves demand quite a bit of force to seal well in their environment...

Its not only to seal well, but also to seal quickly. You don't want to have a valve "float" in its movement.

 

[Ronstang]

This isn't your idea......it has already been done. The only thng that keeps it out of production is the 48 Volt electrical system needed to handle solenoids of that type.......but it will happen.

 

[BatmanNate]

This might be easier to achieve with simply electronically controlled physically valve lifters, but the magnetics idea is very cool. You could hack your car.

 

[Evadman]

They have already been working on these. IIRC The problem is that the valves keep snapping because of the amount of force used to snap the valve closed. Off comes the head. They were trying to figure out how to cushion the landing last I heard, but that was over a year ago. Not sure where they are now.

BTW: you are thinking of a solonoid. A speaker is basicly a solonoid that has more than 2 settings ( off and on ) the speaker starts in the middle of its travel instead of one of the extreams. They both work on the same principal. Same way door locks work.

Have you ever seen/felt/compressed a valve spring? Valves demand quite a bit of force to seal well in their environment...

Springs would not be required. Not really anyway. IIRC these had small springs to keep the valve up when the engine was off. I seem to remember 25lb springs, but do not quote me. it has been quite a while. Modern engines use springs in the 100-125 closed, 250-350lb open seat pressures.

 

[Scootin159]

Originally posted by: NutBucket

Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt
Those would have to be some strong speakers

Have you ever seen/felt/compressed a valve spring? Valves demand quite a bit of force to seal well in their environment...

Its not only to seal well, but also to seal quickly. You don't want to have a valve "float" in its movement.

Yeah, if you think about it, on the compression stroke the valves would be forced closed, same thing on the power stroke. On the exhaust stroke, the exhaust valve is already open, but it would need some force to be opened, on the intake stroke one valve is open as well, but would take some force to hold the exhaust closed. I imagine it could be done.

And yes, the springs are strong so that the valves close quick enough to handle high RPM's. I imagine that 10,000rpm's would be no problem for this since 10,000/60 = 166.67 rotations per second, or 166hz. Even most subwoofers can handle 166hz, tweeters can handle like 20khz or 20,000hz! Granted this all has to do with the moving mass (a valve is heavier than any speaker cone), and the strength of the magnet (yeah, it would have to be pretty powerful to move that much that quickly).

 

[Vic]

This idea has been kicked around for years. Problems include the force required to open the valve and timing (a single valve on an engine operating at 6,000rpm opens and closes 50 times per second and the timing must be absolutely precise).
Someday, though, someday...

 

[Scootin159]

Originally posted by: Ronstang
This isn't your idea......it has already been done. The only thng that keeps it out of production is the 48 Volt electrical system needed to handle solenoids of that type.......but it will happen.

well I thought of it on my own, so it is mine...but I'm not surprised at all to hear that someone else had thought of it first.

 

[Scootin159]

Originally posted by: Evadman
They have already been working on these. IIRC The problem is that the valves keep snapping because of the amount of force used to snap the valve closed. Off comes the head. They were trying to figure out how to cushion the landing last I heard, but that was over a year ago. Not sure where they are now.

BTW: you are thinking of a solonoid. A speaker is basicly a solonoid that has more than 2 settings ( off and on ) the speaker starts in the middle of its travel instead of one of the extreams. They both work on the same principal. Same way door locks work.

Have you ever seen/felt/compressed a valve spring? Valves demand quite a bit of force to seal well in their environment...

Springs would not be required. Not really anyway. IIRC these had small springs to keep the valve up when the engine was off. I seem to remember 25lb springs, but do not quote me. it has been quite a while. Modern engines use springs in the 100-125 closed, 250-350lb open seat pressures.

Yeah, you're right, I did mean a solenoid, knew that too...but just didn't think of the word.

And yeah, I could see how the head snapping off could be a problem. Maybe a solution would be to introduce rocker arms and valve springs & have solenoids control the rocker arms (I think someone here kinda suggested this).

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: mAdD INDIAN

Originally posted by: NutBucket
What's wrong w/ hydraulic lifters? That's what they use in F1.

Hydraulic lifters are quite complex and somewhat unreliable for general consumer cars (even sporty cars). Also they are quite expensive.

However you electronic vavle idea seems quite interesting. I doubt it'd take up a lot of space and it seems quite efficient. However, what about the speed at which they ope and close? Will they be able to sustain 7000+ RPMs ?

SAY WhaT?!?! Hydraulic lifters are used in most consumer factory engines. Solid lifters are seen in Hi Perf engines due to their resistance to lifter "float" at high RPM.

 

[Wingznut]

Cost. It would cost too much for it to be feasible.

 

[d33pt]

They are working on that...the problem is that they need more power, so they'll need 42v power systems...
MIT Tech Review

 

[RayH]

The same technology on a smaller scale is already used on the fuel injectors.