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Electrical Question w/ wiring receptacle

us3rnotfound

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2003
5,334
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I know it's against code and everything, but is there really any risk to having 2 conductors tied into 1 screw terminal? That's what I did instead of making a pigtail connection, because there wasn't enough room in the junction box.

Thanks again
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
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The recepticle didn't have screw terminals and spring loaded connections (push in) located on the back? Every one that I've seen does. One wire in the back and one on the terminal is fine.
 

us3rnotfound

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2003
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So what are my options? I have added undercabinet lighting, and replaced a duplex receptacle on the countertop wall with a 1 gang switch/recept and fed another 12 gauge romex in addition to the existing 2 romex cables in there already. Adding 1 more wirenut in there and screwing in the sw/recept would have been impossible.

Should I work on the wire management?
 

us3rnotfound

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2003
5,334
3
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
The recepticle didn't have terminals and spring loaded connections (push in) located on the back? Every one that I've seen does. One wire in the back and one on the terminal is fine.

Oh nice, didn't think about that.
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
5,947
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Originally posted by: Engineer
The recepticle didn't have screw terminals and spring loaded connections (push in) located on the back? Every one that I've seen does. One wire in the back and one on the terminal is fine.

That's the way to do it.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
For that matter, isn't there two terminals on each side of the recepticle....one for in and one for outgoing connections? I know GFCI's are this way with the exception that the outgoing is controlled by the GFCI circuit, but IIRC, the regular recepticles also have double terminals on each side.
 

us3rnotfound

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2003
5,334
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Originally posted by: Engineer
For that matter, isn't there two terminals on each side of the recepticle....one for in and one for outgoing connections? I know GFCI's are this way with the exception that the outgoing is controlled by the GFCI circuit, but IIRC, the regular recepticles also have double terminals on each side.

Yep, 1 hot from the breaker, 1 hot for another recept next to it, and another hot for the light. That fact combined with the fact they're 12 awg sucks
 

us3rnotfound

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2003
5,334
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Originally posted by: woodie1
Originally posted by: Engineer
The recepticle didn't have screw terminals and spring loaded connections (push in) located on the back? Every one that I've seen does. One wire in the back and one on the terminal is fine.

That's the way to do it.

Before I work on that, does anyone know if it's actually in direct compliance with NEC 2008.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: us3rnotfound
Originally posted by: Engineer
For that matter, isn't there two terminals on each side of the recepticle....one for in and one for outgoing connections? I know GFCI's are this way with the exception that the outgoing is controlled by the GFCI circuit, but IIRC, the regular recepticles also have double terminals on each side.

Yep, 1 hot from the breaker, 1 hot for another recept next to it, and another hot for the light. That fact combined with the fact they're 12 awg sucks

Is the receptacle "next to it" in the same box or is it down the wall. I'm trying to picture what you're doing.

From what I get, you replaced a dual receptacle with a switch/receptacle combo unit, and the original receptacle (dual) had a hot wire from the breaker and an outgoing hot wire for another receptacle down the wall, correct?

Sorry to ask more questions, but I'm short on details here! :p

 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
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Originally posted by: drnickriviera
The quickwire in the back will probably only be for 14ga wire

I just checked and you are correct. Stated to push 14ga solid wire for branch circuit only, so it would be OK for a branch circuit (per the sticker on the back) but only if using 14 wire.
 

drnickriviera

Platinum Member
Jan 30, 2001
2,457
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After thinking about it. If I were doing that and couldn't get a pigtail on there. I'd cut out that single gang box and put in a double gang. 1 switch, 1 outlet
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,864
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Replace the box with a double, add a single mud ring and enjoy the spaciousness.
 

us3rnotfound

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2003
5,334
3
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: us3rnotfound
Originally posted by: Engineer
For that matter, isn't there two terminals on each side of the recepticle....one for in and one for outgoing connections? I know GFCI's are this way with the exception that the outgoing is controlled by the GFCI circuit, but IIRC, the regular recepticles also have double terminals on each side.

Yep, 1 hot from the breaker, 1 hot for another recept next to it, and another hot for the light. That fact combined with the fact they're 12 awg sucks

Is the receptacle "next to it" in the same box or is it down the wall. I'm trying to picture what you're doing.

From what I get, you replaced a dual receptacle with a switch/receptacle combo unit, and the original receptacle (dual) had a hot wire from the breaker and an outgoing hot wire for another receptacle down the wall, correct?

Sorry to ask more questions, but I'm short on details here! :p

This is exactly what I did. Yes other receptacle down the wall.
 

us3rnotfound

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2003
5,334
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OK any tips on removing a junction box? I've done it before, but this time there's 2 nails going across the back, it's going to be a bitch to do it.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,499
374
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Originally posted by: Engineer
For that matter, isn't there two terminals on each side of the recepticle....one for in and one for outgoing connections? I know GFCI's are this way with the exception that the outgoing is controlled by the GFCI circuit, but IIRC, the regular recepticles also have double terminals on each side.

The reason for the two screws on each side of a dual receptacle is NOT to provide a junction connection. It's to allow for conversion to a "Split Duplex" receptacle. In a Split Duplex system you bring in from the breaker box a 3-conductor (plus bare Ground) cable with Black, Red and White. As usual, black is hot, white is neutral, and red is also hot but MUST be from the OTHER hot bus in the breaker panel. At that panel you must use a dual breaker so that tripping it shuts off BOTH hot feeds simultaneously. (Between black and red you have 240 v AC.) At the receptacle, on the hot side, look closely and see that the two parts with screws for the hot leads are connected together with a simple piece of metal you can break away by bending. Leave it on and you have two sockets fed by one hot supply line. But once that is taken off, the two receptacle halves become separate circuits, and the black and red hot leads each go to ONE of those screws. On the Neutral side there is only one common neutral connection, the white lead. It will carry back to the breaker panel the net unbalance current. In the case of plugging in only one load, the white lead will carry back the same current as the hot supply (say, from black). But if you plug a second device into the other (red wire) half of the split duplex receptacle, the "return current" for it is essentially travelling in the oppposite direction from the other, and the white lead ends up carrying back only the difference between the two currents, so it never has a current greater than the load on ONE of the two halves.

Where I live in Ontario, Canada, these split receptacles, fed by 14/3 cable, are mandatory around kitchen counters. They each provide in one outlet box TWO circuits of 15 amps max, each with only one place to plug in a load. You are not allowed to connect more than one of these Split Duplex receptacles to one dual breaker, so each half of the outlet is a dedicated 15 A circuit. So around my kitchen counter there are three such boxes, plus a fourth near the table, providing a total of 8 separate 15-amp circuits. In the USA where these outlets are done as dual receptacles fed from 20 amp breakers (12/3 cable), four such boxes would still provide 8 sockets to plug into, but only a total of 4 separate circuits.

By the way, trying to use the push-in hole on the back for a connection to another box further down the line may technically avoid the rule about not using the screws for making junctions between wires, but it clearly violates the basic intent that all junctions of cunductors in a circuit should be made with wire nuts or similar devices designed to ensure solid connections (electrically and mechanically).

Question for those clear on the NEC: As I said, where I live there can be only ONE Split Duplex receptacle on a 14/3 cable from the panel, and no further branches are allowed. In the USA with 12/2 cables to the dual (20 amp) receptacle for heavy loads in a kitchen, are you allowed to have further branches beyond the first box?
 

Fiat1

Senior member
Dec 27, 2003
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OK any tips on removing a junction box? I've done it before, but this time there's 2 nails going across the back, it's going to be a bitch to do it.

First use a small screwdriver or wire and probe the other side of the box to see that a 2 gang box can be installed.

If so than go buy s 2 gang plastic box from home depot. Use it a a pattern to mark the the wall area that needs to be cut for the new box(left or right side). Cover the existing box with the 2 gang and mark the sheet rock that needs to be cut (remember your not cutting the stud)

Than cut the sheet rock out (make your first cuts the horizontal cuts) that way you will know if any thing is in the way.

Check to see that the new hole is the size needed for the 2 gang box.

Insert a screw driver between the stud and the existing box near the nail and pry it until the nails come out. You may have to do the top than the bottom.

mark all of the wiring so that you know how to reconnect them.

Remove the box and the marked wires. The 1 gang box should come out of the new 2 gang hole.

Take you 2 gang plastic box and cut off the top and bottom nail holders so all that you have is a square box. Remove the wire tabs at the back of the box for the number of wires that you have.

drill a couple of 1/4" holes in the side of the box near the front at a slight angle on the side that the stud will be on

Lace the wires into the box push the box into the wall careful not to push it all the way in. Keeping the face of the box flush with the sheet rock screw a couple sheet rock
screws through the pre-drilled holes into the stud (you can add a couple more further back into the box after you get it set in place)

Add you switch and plug or just you switch.

finish with a combo switch and blank plate or a combo switch and duplex plate.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Paperdoc


The reason for the two screws on each side of a dual receptacle is NOT to provide a junction connection. It's to allow for conversion to a "Split Duplex" receptacle.

That's why I placed a "?" at the end of the incoming - outgoing so it would be a question. I know that there is a jumper between the two terminals and that you can indeed split them into single receptacles.

By the way, trying to use the push-in hole on the back for a connection to another box further down the line may technically avoid the rule about not using the screws for making junctions between wires, but it clearly violates the basic intent that all junctions of cunductors in a circuit should be made with wire nuts or similar devices designed to ensure solid connections (electrically and mechanically).

Intent or not, it's clearly labeled on the back of the receptacle that it is used for 14 ga wire for branch circuits.

P.S. Canada (Ontario Hyrdo) has rules that seem to go far above what the US requires. When we build equipment for Canada, we have to do twice as much work and heavier wiring/components just to pass inspection. You guys suck! :p (j/k).