Electrical panel bus question

[NetWareHead]

What do you do when your neutral bus in an electrical panel cannot physically accommodate a wire?

Inspection revealed my electrical panels are not bonded to any earth ground. I figured I can just run a #4 stranded copper wire to the incoming water pipe and drive some grounding rods into the soil outside my house. Connect all the wire segments together with split bolt connectors and finally connect the panel's neutral bus to this wire to complete the job. (main panel, not a subpanel)

Only issue is that I cannot fit the #4 wire into the holes in the bus. So I have a few options:

1. Unstrand the wire at the last inch and push half of the wires into one hole and half the wires into the other. Something about this feels like a shortcut and possibly not to code.

2. Can I screw a lug into one of the holes on the bus and wire the #4 to the lug?

3. Replacing the bus with one that can accommodate a #4 wire is the least desirable option but I will do it if there is no other satisfactory/safe/code meeting option.

 

[herm0016]

Why do you need 4 wire for your ground in the first place? Usually is 12 or similar.

 

[NetWareHead]

I read that this is the proper size for a grounding system plus my other house is installed this way. #4 stranded hits 3 panels, the incoming water pipe and a rod outside. Im not looking to ground a circuit, looking to ground the entire electrical system

 

[waffleironhead]

Replace the bar with one that does have a properly sized hole, or add a lug to the existing bar.

 

[NL5]

Do you have a pic of the panel? Your ground should go to the ground bar, not the neutral bar. You need to bond the neutral and the ground at your main panel only. Most resi panels have a screw that accomplishes this. If you have panels fed from main panel, the neutral and ground should not be bonded in them.

 

[NutBucket]

I read that this is the proper size for a grounding system plus my other house is installed this way. #4 stranded hits 3 panels, the incoming water pipe and a rod outside. Im not looking to ground a circuit, looking to ground the entire electrical system

Correct. That is the proper way to ground a panel.

Wait, 3 panels? Only the main panel should be bonded, the one with the meter. The subs should have separate neutral and earth grounds.

 

[NetWareHead]

Correct. That is the proper way to ground a panel.

Wait, 3 panels? Only the main panel should be bonded, the one with the meter. The subs should have separate neutral and earth grounds.

No subs in that setup. All panels have their own meters and are all grounded to same #4 stranded that hits water pipe and rod outside.

 

[NutBucket]

Oh, a multi-unit. Gotcha.

 

[NetWareHead]

The house where I need to do this grounding is also a multi and has three panels.

First panel you can see there is no room, neutral bus on left side with no room for expansion or to add a lug anywhere (it's full). I'll have to add a second bus and connect the two with wire. But wait, the holes are small here too so I'm going to be limited to small gauge wire for the bus connection. I'm assuming I can't run uninsulated wire since these buses will be a neutral/ground bus. 100 amp panel so what gauge wire should I connect with? https://goo.gl/photos/RSAFmBiUEvopGTqR7

Send panel with same problem as first bit much more room. I may be able to add a lug here to connect the #4 wire. https://goo.gl/photos/duKkKgaVYeknd6q4A

Third panel is technically a sub of the other panel here but will be converted to a main panel once I get a meter installed outside. I won't ground this one just yet as it gets its grounding from its upstream main panel. I'll just run the #4 into here for future installation. There looks like there is plenty of room to add a lug. https://goo.gl/photos/F5BSuUkEEGw5vvYU9

Edit: can't get photos to link so included URLs instead.

 

[stormkroe]

Get a mechanical lug for $3.50, screw/bolt it anywhere to the panel tub. Be sure to scrape the paint away where it contacts, and some no-ox would probably be nice.

 

[NetWareHead]

Get a mechanical lug for $3.50, screw/bolt it anywhere to the panel tub. Be sure to scrape the paint away where it contacts, and some no-ox would probably be nice.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in a main panel, shouldn't the earth ground be connected to the neutral bus directly? The circuit ground wires connected to the neutral bus should have a direct path to the earth ground. Mounting the lug anywhere in the panel would force extra current to conduct through the metal body of the panel to get to the earth ground.

 

[NutBucket]

It would but the box is also grounded. While it works electrically I'm not sure an inspector would like it.

 

[stormkroe]

Correct me if I'm wrong but in a main panel, shouldn't the earth ground be connected to the neutral bus directly? The circuit ground wires connected to the neutral bus should have a direct path to the earth ground. Mounting the lug anywhere in the panel would force extra current to conduct through the metal body of the panel to get to the earth ground.

Ground and neutral are only to be connected together at 'the first point of disconnect'. That means if you have a meter socket with a breaker in it, they aren't supposed to be connected even in the first panel. You can connect the ground wire directly to the neutral bus (most inspectors prefer that so there is no chance of the bonding screw to be removed). I've never had an inspector that would have a problem with the addition of a bonding/grounding lug. YMMV.

 

[natto fire]

They make lugs that have tabs which fit under the set screws of the buss bars. https://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-ehb4p/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/15960/17015/eccs1__36170.1462406152.jpg?c=2/[/I MG]
[URL]https://www.eslsupply.com/siemens-eccs1-ground-bar-collar-strap-14-1-0-awg-copper-aluminum/?CAWELAID=120164090000000514&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=32902213000&CATCI=pla-194374169080&catargetid=120164090000011119&cadevice=m&gclid=CjwKEAiAmdXBBRD0hZCVkYHTl20SJACWsZj99bAtne82mlgIxjTMjkFEYJVm4dM834sy_InlKRzzWhoCpSTw_wcB[/URL]
The other way is to just bolt a normal lug to the tub, and land your wire on that. The ground is not a current carrying conductor in normal situations, so in most places, it doesn't matter the arrangement of the grounding system, as long as the bonding to the grounded service wire is done at the proper place.

Just had an inspection pass today with a mixture of grounds bolted to the tub, some on the neutral buss, and the water bond on the actual grounding bar. This was a 1000A MDP, state inspector, in Ohio.

 

[NetWareHead]

They make lugs that have tabs which fit under the set screws of the buss bars. https://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-ehb4...960/17015/eccs1__36170.1462406152.jpg?c=2/[/I MG]
https://www.eslsupply.com/siemens-e...2mlgIxjTMjkFEYJVm4dM834sy_InlKRzzWhoCpSTw_wcB
The other way is to just bolt a normal lug to the tub, and land your wire on that. The ground is not a current carrying conductor in normal situations, so in most places, it doesn't matter the arrangement of the grounding system, as long as the bonding to the grounded service wire is done at the proper place.

Just had an inspection pass today with a mixture of grounds bolted to the tub, some on the neutral buss, and the water bond on the actual grounding bar. This was a 1000A MDP, state inspector, in Ohio.

OK but if you mount a lug to the panel body and not directly connected to the neutral bus, that lug from here on has to be used for grounds only? In other words, you couldnt land a neutral wire from a breaker here then since it has no direct connection to the neutral bus other than the metal of the panel.

 

[NutBucket]

Not sure I understand your question. Electrically it's all the same net. The only reason to have the buss bar (s) is to facilitate connecting wires to ground. So using a lug instead of a buss bar is just the different way of skinning a cat.

 

[NetWareHead]

Not sure I understand your question. Electrically it's all the same net. The only reason to have the buss bar (s) is to facilitate connecting wires to ground. So using a lug instead of a buss bar is just the different way of skinning a cat.

Connecting a lug anywhere in the panel like you proposed. When using it for grounding, this lug usually sees no current and is permissible.

Same lug but landing a neutral wire on it. Say from a breaker. This neutral circuit does see constant current and it would have to travel from the lug and through the panel body to get to the neutral bus to get back to the transformer.

My question is if a lug installed on the panel body like proposed, can it by code only be used for grounding? My train of thought is that if u need to land a wire for a neutral, it needs to go on the neutral bus and not on a lug bonded to the panel body. Is routing neutral current through the panel body like this illegal? Hope this makes sense.

 

[NutBucket]

I'm not sure and I'm sure it varies by municipality. Best bet is to check your local code.