Electrical junction box & light fixture question

[NetWareHead]

Renovating a bathroom and about to add the ceiling. Pic: https://goo.gl/photos/cBwCW1w78BffuWX59

The junction box in the top center of the image is situated directly in the center of the bathroom. This kind of box will allow for a flush mount fixture. I've come to the realization that I don't want a boob light or a chandelier in the bathroom. Its a small bathroom and a hanging fixture would be too obtrusive. I want more of a recessed fixture that will be hidden in the ceiling and be out of the way. I wish I had thought of this earlier but it is what it is...

I was thinking about replacing the existing box with a typical can recessed fixture but there is not enough room in a typical can junction box for all of that wire and splices. Plus, how would you access it down the road? With the can in the way, the box will effectively be buried in the ceiling. Code says I can't bury boxes and splices, they have to be accessible and I dont really want to add an access panel.

The only thing I can think of is to mount the current box higher than it is so I can install a more recessed light fixture under it. Other than that, do you guys have any suggestions for a recessed light and how to keep all of those splices accessible?

 

[Blackjack200]

I can't see the picture, but why would you have splices in the wiring to the light? Don't you just have romex or bx running from the switch to the fixture?

 

[boomerang]

I don't see how you're going to mount that box high enough to accomplish what you want. You might partially bury a surface mount fixture but that will create problems of its own. You should easily be able to find a low profile surface mount fixture that will not protrude from the ceiling too much. I would think it would have to be LED.

What's with the cabling that is attached to the underside of the joists? How do you finish off that ceiling with that attached there? Surely you're not putting up a dropped ceiling?

I question the legality of that junction box anyway. Any fixture you attach to it will in a sense bury the box. But, I'm not an electrician so what do I know? I'm a bit amazed that a box for a bathroom ceiling fixture is the location for a junction box with that many wires coming into it, but I do understand that the Internet point of view is not always the clearest.

 

[NetWareHead]

You have to be logged into google/gmail to see the pictures I assume since they come from my google photos app.

The reason why there are so many wires going to this box is because it is where the bathroom light, vanity light, fan, gfci outlet for bathroom are all spliced together.

 

[Blackjack200]

nm

 

[NetWareHead]

I don't see how you're going to mount that box high enough to accomplish what you want. You might partially bury a surface mount fixture but that will create problems of its own. You should easily be able to find a low profile surface mount fixture that will not protrude from the ceiling too much. I would think it would have to be LED.

What's with the cabling that is attached to the underside of the joists? How do you finish off that ceiling with that attached there? Surely you're not putting up a dropped ceiling?

I question the legality of that junction box anyway. Any fixture you attach to it will in a sense bury the box. But, I'm not an electrician so what do I know? I'm a bit amazed that a box for a bathroom ceiling fixture is the location for a junction box with that many wires coming into it, but I do understand that the Internet point of view is not always the clearest.

Not a drop ceiling, I am putting in a tin ceiling to match the rest of the house. There is now 2x4 strapping added to those joists to serve as a mounting point for the ceiling.

Even if I install a fixture to the box, the splices will not be buried. Remove the light and the open side of the junc box will be accessible right there. I just cant bury a box under drywall, unless I put in an access panel.

The reason why so many wires were run to this box was because during the course of my renovation, the bathroom was gutted entirely down to the studs, subfloor and ceiling joists. The bathroom is also in a central location between 2 bedrooms and other rooms in the apartment. The lack of a ceiling in the bathroom plus its central location was an accessible location to snake wires to other rooms (above those ceilings) so thats how some wires of them ended up in the bathroom. The others are bathroom specific wires.

 

[boomerang]

Not a drop ceiling, I am putting in a tin ceiling to match the rest of the house. There is now 2x4 strapping added to those joists to serve as a mounting point for the ceiling.

Even if I install a fixture to the box, the splices will not be buried. Remove the light and the open side of the junc box will be accessible right there. I just cant bury a box under drywall, unless I put in an access panel.

The reason why so many wires were run to this box was because during the course of my renovation, the bathroom was gutted entirely down to the studs, subfloor and ceiling joists. The bathroom is also in a central location between 2 bedrooms and other rooms in the apartment. The lack of a ceiling in the bathroom plus its central location was an accessible location to snake wires to other rooms (above those ceilings) so thats how some wires of them ended up in the bathroom. The others are bathroom specific wires.

That all makes perfect sense, thanks!

 

[mxnerd]

Like what boomerang said, a low profile or flush mount LED light probably is the best bet. I just installed one from Costco about 3 months ago in my smallest bedroom.

http://www.costco.com/Altair-14"-LED-Flushmount-Light.product.100316809.html

 

[herm0016]

http://www.homedepot.com/b/Lighting.../Pixi/Integrated-LED/N-5yc1vZc7buZbi0Z1z0o8ro

we have the 2 ft square in our kitchen and love it. people always ask if its a skylight. it hangs down about 1/2 in from the celing. one of the 12 in squares would probalby be plenty for a bathroom.

there is another brand instore with round versions of the same light.

 

[mxnerd]

Maybe this Round Ultrathin LED Bathroom Lighting Fixtures ?

https://www.amazon.com/Downlight-Ultrathin-Bathroom-Lighting-Fixtures/dp/B012QE922E/

 

[twinrider1]

 

[herm0016]

oh dear.... that's a lot of fill. how are you planing on putting drywall over the wire that is stapled to the bottom of the joist?

how many in3 box is that?

2.0 cubic inches per #14 wire
2.25 cubic inches per #12 wire
2.5 cubic inches per #10 wire.

looks like 12 x 2.0 + 2. 26 ci is your minimum box size

 

[NetWareHead]

The joists have since been strapped with 2x4 to create room. A p-trap for the bath tub has since been installed in the upper left and we needed to drop the ceiling by a 1.5 inches to clear the trap. There will be a tin ceiling nailed to the strapping instead of drywall.

I'll go look at the box tonight and get the cubic inches. yes the box is crammed and probably more than allowable

 

[twinrider1]

Thinking the same thing herm0016. Guessing that's a 4" box. Box looks over the limit to me. I'd at least want to get that 20a line out of there.

 

[NutBucket]

Another solution might be to install a recessed can and just use a blank cover on (a) junction box for the rest of the wiring.

 

[NL5]

Why is there so many wires in a light fixture box?

 

[natto fire]

Did you run out of wire and that is why you had to splice the #12 in the light box? I usually do those as a home run to the panel.

I agree that a slim surface mount fixture is the way to go with that junction box.

Lithonia makes a very good wet location listed one. Google fmml 7 827 wl m6 for more info.

I'm sure you know, but to clear up the confusion from the other post, a surface mount fixture covering splices is considered accessible by code.

 

[Blackjack200]

Did you run out of wire and that is why you had to splice the #12 in the light box? I usually do those as a home run to the panel.

The OP said:

The reason why so many wires were run to this box was because during the course of my renovation, the bathroom was gutted entirely down to the studs, subfloor and ceiling joists. The bathroom is also in a central location between 2 bedrooms and other rooms in the apartment. The lack of a ceiling in the bathroom plus its central location was an accessible location to snake wires to other rooms (above those ceilings) so thats how some wires of them ended up in the bathroom. The others are bathroom specific wires.

Which I didn't completely understand. Maybe he is branching circuits out from that box. But I only see one 12g connection there, so unless that's the circuit to power the fixture, he could get rid of that splice.

 

[natto fire]

The OP said:



Which I didn't completely understand. Maybe he is branching circuits out from that box. But I only see one 12g connection there, so unless that's the circuit to power the fixture, he could get rid of that splice.

That's what I was getting at. The #12 dedicated circuit for the bathroom GFCI receptacle should be a home run to the panel. Not saying it can't be spliced, just that it is not common practice.

If that #12 is feeding the lighting circuit and the GFCI receptacle, then that is not a compliant installation. The bath circuit is supposed to be a dedicated 20 amp circuit per Article 210.11 (C) (3). Which would also exceed the maximum OCPD allowed for that #14 wire.

Judging by OPs other threads, though, I am sure he is not doing it that way. He seems to know what he is doing. I am still guessing that the home run came up short, and that was the closest box to splice in.

 

[Blackjack200]

I just realized that the #12 can't be the circuit to the fixture anyway since it continues, and anything on the load side of the fixture would be switched by the light switch. So it must be a #14 to the light and the #12 is just a splice.

 

[natto fire]

I just realized that the #12 can't be the circuit to the fixture anyway since it continues, and anything on the load side of the fixture would be switched by the light switch. So it must be a #14 to the light and the #12 is just a splice.

It could be done that way, just splice the switch feed in there and run a cable down to the switch. Old way would just be to use a 2 conductor cable to the switch, use black for line and white for load.

Now the NEC wants neutrals at many switches so that manufacturers will stop making electronic switches which use the EGC as a current carrying conductor. Much more common to run the feed through the switch box for this reason.

 

[Blackjack200]

Right, but wouldn't the cable running down to the switch have to be #12 as well?

 

[natto fire]

Right, but wouldn't the cable running down to the switch have to be #12 as well?

If it was being fed by a 20 amp breaker, yes. You are allowed to use oversize wire and sometimes must to compensate for voltage drop. However, you can't use wire that is too small for the OCPD (breaker or fuse) being used.

 

[NetWareHead]

Im trying to remember exactly what we did in that bathroom and made harder now that drywall is up and I cannot visually trace the wires in the wall. I did have my electrician assist with the first floor rewire since it involved snaking and Im not so good at this skill. So we followed his wiring plan since it was easiest to snake from the bathroom to other rooms. Largely, the rooms that were reachable via snaking from the bathroom guided the decision to put their circuits in the bathroom. I know this is not a standard electrical install nor customary from a wiring perspective

Here is what I can remember best from memory. The 12 ga wire on the left entering the box is the home run but that originates from the load side of a GFCI outlet near the sink. This is spliced into the 12 ga wire tacked up under the joists running to the bathroom fan. There is also a 14 ga wire (same circuit) running back out to the left that runs to lighting next to the sink vanity. So both of these lights/fan are considered to be in wet areas and thus gfci protected by the outlet near the sink. This outlet has its own home run to dedicated 20 amp breaker at the panel.

On the left is yet another 14 ga wire which originates from the panel from a 15 amp breaker, this is the overhead lighting circuit for 2 bedrooms. There are 2 more 14 ga wires that run to left and right of the bathroom to separate overhead lighting fixtures (2 bedrooms). So this overhead lighting circuit serves 2 bedroom lights plus ultimately the bathroom light that will hang here. My electrician likes to put overheads on separate circuits in case of a breaker trip (or GFCI trip) in the bathroom, at least the overhead light will remain on

I also found a light that will perhaps serve my needs in this bathroom and not require extensive box replacement or height resetting. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Halo-4-i...Disk-Light-with-80-CRI-SLD405830WHR/204732242 Amazing what we can do nowadays with LEDs, the thinnest light fixtures I have ever seen. So I dont have to recess a light up into the ceiling.

 

[colonel]

why you need a yellow 20amp cable for a small lamp... how many circuits from the panel you have here... something is no right.. What king of breaker you have for the 20amp cable.