Education: Did you know 2.0

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
It's like a game of king of the mountain. Right now, the USA is at the top of the mountain, gloating that we have such a high GDP, etc. We aren't doing as much as we could to stay king of the mountain. Meanwhile, all these other countries are learning to scale that mountain with top of the line climbing gear, while we're standing on the top, letting our gear rust.

I quoted the statistic not too long ago, and now I can't quite remember what it was, but it's something along the lines of "the top 20% of Chinese students are more than ALL of the students in the U.S., and the top 25% of Indian students are more than ALL of the students in the U.S." They're training tons of students in engineering, etc. The sit on our hands people posting here in P&N say "so what, they'll just get shitty jobs over there, because they don't have the need for that many engineers." The answer to that comment: "You're right. They don't have the need... YET." Yet is coming.

DrPizza aren't you a teacher? What do you think we need to do to prepare our next generation to compete in the global economy?

I think there is something fundamentally flawed in an education that overemphasizes on science and engineering (and I'm in engineering graduate school). Someone has said that not all foreign students are smart, which is true. Education should be comprehensive so kids can find out what they like and do best in. I don't know... I'm just a graduate student.

 

[gevorg]

I think this more of a human nature than ethnic/cultural differences between US and other countries like China. If your standard of living is high, then you're less likely to study hard since life is pretty good already. If your standard of living is low, then you'll bust your ass to get good grades, hoping for a better future. The standard of living of average US student > average Chinese student.

 

[TruePaige]

I think our greatest asset is our creativity.

Sure India has a lot of engineers, but have you ever hired one to code for you? They have no -imagination-. That is why most of the innovations come from the United States and knock offs are made abroad.

Our greatest asset is our ability to put it all together and think outside the box.

Also I have a few points to address:

Public schools may stink to some degree, but most private schools I've seen just kiss rich parent ass and teach the kids to be snobs who are too self important to get anywhere. The only people that get anywhere are determined and don't need to be spoonfed.

Also, 9 out of 10 people are pretty dumb I believe.

 

[colossus]

Originally posted by: TruePaige
I think our greatest asset is our creativity.

Sure India has a lot of engineers, but have you ever hired one to code for you? They have no -imagination-. That is why most of the innovations come from the United States and knock offs are made abroad.

Our greatest asset is our ability to put it all together and think outside the box.

Also I have a few points to address:

Public schools may stink to some degree, but most private schools I've seen just kiss rich parent ass and teach the kids to be snobs who are too self important to get anywhere. The only people that get anywhere are determined and don't need to be spoonfed.

Also, 9 out of 10 people are pretty dumb I believe.

This is true. My cousins have come over from India (4 of them) and all of them are working for tech in Texas. They do mundane tech jobs that are stable - it pays the bills and is more likely to not get you fired. If my dad worked as hard as he did at a successful game company like EA he would be a millionaire - but he choose to pick the boring but reliable defense industry. Creativity doesn't fly back home in Asian countries. When was the last time you saw an Indian, Chinese, Korean, Japanese or Vietnamese parent boast about their kid working for a movie production crew. Maybe the reason American kids can master an Ipod and PC by age 5 is because they're so creative. My cousins were doing farm work or house chores at age 5 lol.

I think what wrong with public schools is the focus on a broad education. While I understand the basic motive for idea (everybody always points to the nuclear scientists who were clueless at the ethical ramifications of their work) I think it's messed up this country. I took more AP/junior college classes than any other kid in my HS and entered UCLA as a junior. Even though I should have tested out of all that humanities crap (I was heading straight for med school) UCLA still punished me and made me sit through useless science and humanities crap. I got so bored my first three years I had a 2.7 GPA. Even got a C in a physics class because I missed a midterm and had to get perfect/extra credit on the other 2 to barely pass. The senior year I was actually happy to learn (new material) and busted out a 4.0 even while commuting 70 miles from Cerritos/Westwood and back (that's a bithc of a drive during El Nino year). AND THIS IS A UNIVERSITY!!!

In India and China kids that are headed for professional science careers are tracked into those careers. In India HS is only 2 years and you pick your focus (medicine or engineering or other science) and track towards that in college. I can't comment on how well rounded the kids are - but I can tell you that if they're going to college they're usually fluent in a minimum of 2 languages and can probably name 50-100 countries on the world map. My mom knows 4 languages and my dad knows 5 (both have better grammar than myself and I was born here lol).

If kids in this country show an aptitude towards arts - push them towards it. Don't try to force science down their throats. Sure there should be some basic teaching up until maybe 6th grade. After that let the kids start making life choices.

As I always tell other people who always comment on me becoming a physician - 95% of people can be physicians. They may hate it, but they have the capability of learning. They just haven't been motivated for it. There were a couple people in my med-school class who could party 24/7 - cram for 2 hours - pass with flying colors. I'm not one of those people. I worked my ass off during med-school to learn as much as I could so I wouldn't be that dumbass in the Weird Al video "Like a surgeon". I think most people's minds work like mine. They just choose to do other things. I choose medicine because I liked biology/physiology, I liked helping people, I liked the respect the career earned and of course I didn't want to "disappoint" my parents and be a movie editor or real-estate agent (sadly now that they know how messed up physicians have it they would probably have opted for the later haha). But my parents are crazy and that's another issue...

I think kids today have no shame. No fear of failing. There's shame in being a virgin by senior year, there's shame in studying on Friday night, there's shame in raising your hand in class when you know the answer. But there's no shame in being a failure. After all if Octomom can make millions by being a baby factory with no contribution to society what shame is there in being a leech or a low-level grunt.

As much as I laugh at Hillary Clinton - I do agree with her "it takes a village". If people were more concerned with their neighbor's kid than they were with the next American Idol the US would be a better place. Kids need to be made uncomfortable when they're lazy. They don't need to unlock cold fusion but at least contribute to society.

Another doc (my wife OB) commented that if the US took all the money they spent on the "backwards" kids and put it on the "little Einsteins" then the US would be leaps and bounds ahead. While this is a true statement - it also sound cruel in a manner. Guess that's something for this think tank to talk about

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: colossus

Originally posted by: TruePaige
I think our greatest asset is our creativity.

Sure India has a lot of engineers, but have you ever hired one to code for you? They have no -imagination-. That is why most of the innovations come from the United States and knock offs are made abroad.

Our greatest asset is our ability to put it all together and think outside the box.

Also I have a few points to address:

Public schools may stink to some degree, but most private schools I've seen just kiss rich parent ass and teach the kids to be snobs who are too self important to get anywhere. The only people that get anywhere are determined and don't need to be spoonfed.

Also, 9 out of 10 people are pretty dumb I believe.

If kids in this country show an aptitude towards arts - push them towards it. Don't try to force science down their throats. Sure there should be some basic teaching up until maybe 6th grade. After that let the kids start making life choices.

Kids don't know what they want for a long time. I've known people who switched their majors in their 4th year because they can't make up their mind. Shoveling them into a curriculum because of an aptitude in the 6th grade would be extremely counter-productive.

What this country needs is a decent public education system. We have the finest universities in the world, but our public school systems are a mess. FFS, we are still geared for a mostly agrarian culture, with 3 months off in the summer to help with the harvest. We need to completely overhaul the school system, put kids in school for 200+ days like almost every major industrialized country and actually design a curriculum that is in the 21st century. We need to school teachers much better, they need to be fully proficient in all major subjects and be damn good in their subjects of choice.

 

[Moonbeam]

One can get a grand tour of the lack of thinking skills characteristic of modern Americans just by reading P & N.

Even more interesting, however, in my opinion, is just how incredibly proud we are of our ignorance. Half the South thinks you have a high IQ if you're homophobic.

 

[Exterous]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
What do you think we need to do to prepare our next generation to compete in the global economy?

While not a teacher myself I come from a family of teachers (Mother, Wife, Sister, Brother-in-Law) so I get to hear considerable discussion on the matter. There is too much teaching to the test. They don't teach nearly problem solving skills nearly enough just how to get the correct answers on the test. (Reasons vary for that but not all schools have the time/resources/talent in order to pass the tests. And if the schools don't pass the test they don't get funding.)

Parents are a big problem too. Schools are paranoid about parent's suing them and tiptoe around them - creating stupid rules so that no one will get their feelings hurt (No one wins a baseball - is that a scissor??!!! OMG WEAPON! SUSPENSION!!!!) or injured (I understand that a weapon free place is important but it's being taken too far for fear of lawsuits)

Parents also don't seem to take the same interest in education anymore. It's not as important to them. My wife calls every parent about an unexcused absence. Half the parents don't even care. Half of them don't make the kids do homework if they don't want to. They are more concerned about being their kid's friend than their parent. If the child doesn't grow up in a culture that values education they won't either

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Even more interesting, however, in my opinion, is just how incredibly proud we are of our ignorance. Half the South thinks you have a high IQ if you're homophobic.

Way to derail the thread. I think people from both the left (including you) and right are also very ignorant in their refusal to understand why the other side thinks the way they do.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Having done extensive traveling (13 countries) I can tell you that American kids have a "I deserve it because Im American" mentality. When I go to places like Peru...or Manila...or Taiwan and see kids there...how hard they try...how inventive they are...its eye opening. Kids (and many adults too) here think if they cant do it for themselves then they deserve for someone else to do it for them. Maybe its rough, but the majority of the world lives by the rule that if you dont help yourself, youre fucked. In the US, its becoming more of If you dont help yourself, dont worry, the government has a program for that, because we are all equal. We're pretty much the only country that follows that rule. As a result, we are lazy.

:thumbsup:

People in the US who think they have it bad need should be taken to see everyday life in a 3rd world country. I'm not talking about watching it on the news or a documentary - I mean being there to see poverty on a massive scale. Our slums make some areas I've see look like paradise.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Having done extensive traveling (13 countries) I can tell you that American kids have a "I deserve it because Im American" mentality. When I go to places like Peru...or Manila...or Taiwan and see kids there...how hard they try...how inventive they are...its eye opening. Kids (and many adults too) here think if they cant do it for themselves then they deserve for someone else to do it for them. Maybe its rough, but the majority of the world lives by the rule that if you dont help yourself, youre fucked. In the US, its becoming more of If you dont help yourself, dont worry, the government has a program for that, because we are all equal. We're pretty much the only country that follows that rule. As a result, we are lazy.

um, that's like the entire western world, dude.

Name one other country that bails out its citizens to the extent we do. Including corporations.

the rest of the western world?

Originally posted by: blackangst1


I agree, but take exception to your middle paragraph. Without going into a huge story telling post, I'll just say youre wrong. Wealth/wealthy and the lifestyles surrounding it are pretty much the same everywhere.

the way we do it is pretty much an anglo-american thing

How do we "do it" thats different than say Taiwan? Or Hong Kong? Or Bangledesh? Or Bogota? Maybe you've seen something I havent, but in my personal in person experience...its all the same.

 

[spittledip]

I think we might not have as many "go-getter" kids as we did in the past, but from what I've seen, there are still alot of good schools and kids who work very hard in school. The OP's generalization is only true to a certain point. Also, if kids have that "entitled" attitude, I am looking toward the parents as the culprits, not the govt or schools.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
One can get a grand tour of the lack of thinking skills characteristic of modern Americans just by reading P & N.

Even more interesting, however, in my opinion, is just how incredibly proud we are of our ignorance. Half the South thinks you have a high IQ if you're homophobic.

Don't hate yerself

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Even more interesting, however, in my opinion, is just how incredibly proud we are of our ignorance. Half the South thinks you have a high IQ if you're homophobic.

Way to derail the thread. I think people from both the left (including you) and right are also very ignorant in their refusal to understand why the other side thinks the way they do.

Had you any critical thinking skills you would know the other side does not think. They are only a bot program.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Even more interesting, however, in my opinion, is just how incredibly proud we are of our ignorance. Half the South thinks you have a high IQ if you're homophobic.

Way to derail the thread. I think people from both the left (including you) and right are also very ignorant in their refusal to understand why the other side thinks the way they do.

Actually, Moonster is not really a Liberal... I'd opine he's a Libertarian... And if true he has his eyes focused on both sides..
But, to your point. That folks think differently on any topic results from a myriad of factors and it seems to me Life Experience or lack there of leads the pack. Smart is sort of relative to the observer, it seems to me. In a barn discussing the birthing of a calf I'd say the rancher is smart whilst walking on Wall street the fellow who just pulled off a multi billion dollar IPO was equally smart but in a different field... Only amongst folks to whom smart is irrelevant are all equal... Me thinks..

 

[First]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Having done extensive traveling (13 countries) I can tell you that American kids have a "I deserve it because Im American" mentality. When I go to places like Peru...or Manila...or Taiwan and see kids there...how hard they try...how inventive they are...its eye opening. Kids (and many adults too) here think if they cant do it for themselves then they deserve for someone else to do it for them. Maybe its rough, but the majority of the world lives by the rule that if you dont help yourself, youre fucked. In the US, its becoming more of If you dont help yourself, dont worry, the government has a program for that, because we are all equal. We're pretty much the only country that follows that rule. As a result, we are lazy.

um, that's like the entire western world, dude.

Name one other country that bails out its citizens to the extent we do. Including corporations.

Your criteria is bunk, but to name a few; France, Germany, Britain, Canada, Japan. France and Britain have significantly bailed out their corporations in billions of pounds/euros, and France in particular has kept formerly private institutions under gov't control despite initial claims they wouldn't (Renault until a decade ago). Both France and Britain have "socialized" healthcare, as does Canada. Germany has extremely strict labor laws that make it difficult to fire and (inadvertently) hire workers due precisely to the need to "bailout" its citizens. Japan is worse than Germany in that regard, literally propping up millions of workers in questionable jobs to begin with (in terms of productivity and future return), with a highly centralized and highly debt-ridden economy (twice that of the U.S. currently even if you include this year's budget). All these Western economies generally centralize their services far more frequently than the U.S. and are under far more intrusive gov't surveillance, nothing near what our privacy rights in the U.S. are (be it Britain's CCTV or Germany's recently minted laws allowing unwarranted search and seizure throughout the average citizenry in many cases).

To say we bail out Americans with gov't more than the rest of the world shows a complete lack of understanding of the rest of the world.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Evan

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Having done extensive traveling (13 countries) I can tell you that American kids have a "I deserve it because Im American" mentality. When I go to places like Peru...or Manila...or Taiwan and see kids there...how hard they try...how inventive they are...its eye opening. Kids (and many adults too) here think if they cant do it for themselves then they deserve for someone else to do it for them. Maybe its rough, but the majority of the world lives by the rule that if you dont help yourself, youre fucked. In the US, its becoming more of If you dont help yourself, dont worry, the government has a program for that, because we are all equal. We're pretty much the only country that follows that rule. As a result, we are lazy.

um, that's like the entire western world, dude.

Name one other country that bails out its citizens to the extent we do. Including corporations.

Your criteria is bunk, but to name a few; France, Germany, Britain, Canada, Japan. France and Britain have significantly bailed out their corporations in billions of pounds/euros, and France in particular has kept formerly private institutions under gov't control despite initial claims they wouldn't (Renault until a decade ago). Both France and Britain have "socialized" healthcare, as does Canada. Germany has extremely strict labor laws that make it difficult to fire and (inadvertently) hire workers due precisely to the need to "bailout" its citizens. Japan is worse than Germany in that regard, literally propping up millions of workers in questionable jobs to begin with (in terms of productivity and future return), with a highly centralized and highly debt-ridden economy (twice that of the U.S. currently even if you include this year's budget). All these Western economies generally centralize their services far more frequently than the U.S. and are under far more intrusive gov't surveillance, nothing near what our privacy rights in the U.S. are (be it Britain's CCTV or Germany's recently minted laws allowing unwarranted search and seizure throughout the average citizenry in many cases).

To say we bail out Americans with gov't more than the rest of the world shows a complete lack of understanding of the rest of the world.

Just in banking alone, the EU bailout was what...$4 Trillion? Commited to by 13 countries? Compared to our $24 Trillion, commited to by one?

LOL I think you have your > and < backwards man...

 

[Sacrilege]

CNN Money Link

Fear of math seems to be a problem for many students.

Wtop.com Link

"As always, whitey now sits in judgment of me, preparing to cast my fate.

-Henry Gates

 

[First]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Just in banking alone, the EU bailout was what...$4 Trillion? Commited to by 13 countries? Compared to our $24 Trillion, commited to by one?

24T isn't accurate, that's a bunk stat that doesn't include actual dollars spent/to-be-spent. For example, it calculates CDS obligations in the trillions when the actual dollars exchanged approach nowhere near that amount (it's only something like $100B). And of course the EU didn't bail themselves out as much as we did, their individual economies are vastly smaller as a % of GDP, and more insulated from the current U.S.-driven recession.

LOL I think you have your > and < backwards man...

A fitting comment from someone insulated from the rest of the world that has no clue we are one of the most right-wing countries in the world.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Evan

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Just in banking alone, the EU bailout was what...$4 Trillion? Commited to by 13 countries? Compared to our $24 Trillion, commited to by one?

24T isn't accurate, that's a bunk stat that doesn't include actual dollars spent/to-be-spent. For example, it calculates CDS obligations in the trillions when the actual dollars exchanged approach nowhere near that amount (it's only something like $100B). And of course the EU didn't bail themselves out as much as we did, their individual economies are vastly smaller as a % of GDP, and more insulated from the current U.S.-driven recession.

LOL I think you have your > and < backwards man...

A fitting comment from someone insulated from the rest of the world that has no clue we are one of the most right-wing countries in the world.

Whoa man I think you misread my post...so hostile...Im not disagreeing EU bails out. Im disagreeing thats it to a greater extent than we do. Can you post some links? I posted one (of many) and all you can say is its bunk. I'd like the opportunity to do the same, before calling you an idiot again.