Ed's take on AMD and X2

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,419
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What About AMD?

Not surprisingly, I got some emails "explaining" to me why AMD couldn't possibly ship out a $300 dual-core processor any time soon. The term "fab capacity" came up a lot.

Let's examine this closely:

When AMD's Dresden plant was built, it was supposed to be capable of making roughly 10 million CPUs per quarter at 130nm running flat-out.

Currently, AMD is producing a bit over 8 million CPUs per quarter. About half of them are 130nm Athlon XPs, the rest Hammers, some 130nm, probably more 90nm. It is safe to say AMD is getting less than $100 per XP, probably a good deal less than that. It is just as safe to say that AMD is getting rather more than $100 per Hammer sold, probably a good deal more than that.

It's taken AMD almost two years to get desktop Hammers to the crossover point, but from this point on, Athlon XPs will be quickly phased out. AMD will have to sell millions more Hammers than they have in the past.

Per die size, 90nm Hammers are roughly the same size as the 130nm Athlon XPs, so there will be no unit production bonus shifting current XP production to Hammer production. There will be a bonus shifting 130nm Hammer production to 90nm, though it's more in the nature of removing an anchor from capability.

Athlon 64 sales were minimal (around 100K) a quarter until prices dropped below the $200 mark. Hammer sales are very heavily skewed to the low end (AMD said it, not me). There's no evidence of AMD Hammer shortages; all indications are that supply and demand are pretty much balanced.

It's very hard to argue that AMD can't afford to sell a dual unit for $300 when they are using half their capacity to make single XPs for less than $100. It's very hard to argue that you can't make a decent profit by charging $300 for an item that might should cost Dresden $50 or less to make.

One might say that AMD is better off selling two single-cores than one dual, but given that AMD's single-core sales are mostly at the low-end anyway, there's probably little revenue or profit difference at the $300 level (and AMD would probably be justified in charging a bit more than Intel).

What's more important strategically is that this is an opportunity for AMD to shine and make a good first impression on this new playing field. If you want buzz, if you want word-of-mouth, you'll get a lot more effective buzz if a lot more people actually own the things. This is a field where AMD can match Intel close-to-one-on-one in a new field for at least a while. AMD doesn't get many shots at doing that. They ought to take advantage of it under any circumstance, and especially so if Intel is having teething problems.

If what the Taiwanese are saying about Intel's offerings is fairly close to the truth, it is highly unlikely that a $300 dually is going to overwhelm Dresden. Maybe a few hundred thousand extra units per quarter. There should be enough capacity at Dresden for that, and even if there isn't, then what were all these foundry deals with third-parties about?

It should be noted that in a year, AMD will be happily selling dual-cores at the Sempron level. Yes, they'll be at 65nm, which saves a bit, but you know they aren't going to cost anywhere near $500 or even $300. They probably won't even cost half of that.

If you sell a dually at $300 today, people will know that they won't get better for over a year. Start selling them at $300 six months from now, and people will be less inclined to buy them knowing they'll be obsoleted fairly shortly.

Yes, Intel may be having some problems, but that's even a better reason for AMD to push ahead on duallies. You have superior performance, you don't need a special mobo to run the chip, why not try to match Intel sale for sale among the early adopters? Make this new playing field an even one for 2005, and you're in much better shape against Intel in 2006.

Instead, we see a strategy that will sell AMD maybe 100-200K units the rest of the year. Even if the Taiwanese have hit the nail on the head for Intel, that means Intel will dominate in this new field right from the start.

It makes no sense. Unless . . . .

The Catch

All that I've said relies on one assumption: AMD is not having any serious problems producing the goods.

Unfortunately, based on AMD's past history, that's an awfully big assumption to make.

Over the past few years, every time AMD has done something that hasn't made much sense, like not talk about new products, or hyperpricing them, one kind of production problems or another has been the reason. Every single time.

When this happens, AMD does the same thing every single time. They deny (or actually, say things that sound like denials) any problem, until they've fixed them. Then, and only then, will they 'fess up.

No, they don't flat-out lie, but they provide slick, technically-accurate but misleading answers, much like President Clinton said, "I did not have sex with that woman," using a legal rather general definition of oral ministrations.

To give just one example, in the past, they've said things like "Yields are fine." That sound pretty good until you realize that "yields" all by itself mean little. A working Hammer that can only run at 800MHz or 1400MHz is hardly any good.

In other words, if Problem C is giving Dresden nightmares, if someone asks, "What's wrong?" they'll say "There's no Problem A or B." If someone is determined or lucky enough to ask, "Is Problem C the problem," (and I can't say I've heard anyone nail it at their conference calls yet) the answer will be the same, "There's no Problem A or B," sometimes with a "We're not going to talk about that."

Then six months later, you'll hear them say, "Oh, we had Problem C, but we've fixed that."

Given this track record, while we don't exactly know what the problem is, it is pretty safe to say there is some problem, somewhere.

Maybe yields of working duallies are the problem. Maybe yields at the desired speeds are the problem. Maybe there's no technical problem at all, but AMD hasn't been able to afford converting capacity at Dresden from 130nm to 90nm as quickly as they might like. Maybe Hector Ruiz still thinks he's at Motorola, and still thinks CPUs deserve to cost a lot. Who knows?

However, for us, the why doesn't really matter, the what does, and the "what" is "AND can't deliver and can't take advantage of opportunities when it counts."

And that's sad.

 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
One thing is clear, the Opterons are going sell extremely well.

From this point forward, until Intel makes a move, there is no reason to adopt Intel for dual core. (unless you are a "dell business" of course)
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Lots of words to say you don't like the price of the best processors in the world. Cry cry cry eddy.

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Here's a good post I LOL to whole thread actually

What is up with this old fart?!

No matter what AMD does, he always says it doesn't matter because Intel will always win. He always bitches about everything, especially AMDs moves.

Even with the latest X2 release of AMD, IMHO the most technically advanced desktop CPU to date, he essentially says: "Haha! Another win for Intel because of AMDs high prices!" WTF?

Check these out:

May 10: Dual-Core Hammers Lots of talk, but it's just hot air. With its non-competitive pricing against the no-doubt inferior Pentium D, AMD gets the hails, Intel will get the sales, and that's the only scoreboard that counts.

Apr 18: That's one big difference between AMD and Intel. AMD thinks it has to impress geeks; Intel knows it has to impress Joes, and Intel is big and powerful enough to not only play the game, but change the rules

He also constantly talks about 65nm fab, as if it's the holy grail. He said the same thing about 90nm, when everyone was still on 130nm.

And it's not just AMD, he also picks on iPod, saying he doesn't feel the need to "caress" something like a nipple, just to give him what he wants.

And more recently, he dizzes the announcement of Xbox 360 at MTV because Elijah Wood is making the introduction.

April 12:
"XBox2 To Be Introduced On MTV by Frodo. Sheesh, what's going to be the slogan for XBox2? "One Box To Rule Them All"?

Style of Ed Stroligo: Always talk about Joe Sixpack, always demand for a $50 3 Ghz Dual-core 64 bit 65nm fab CPU, and bitch incessantly if you don't get it, always make unfathomable analogies and metaphors.

I mean, c'mon! Shut the fsck up already! Am I the only one here who seems to think this guy's lost it?

I used to read overclockers.com because they used to have neat ideas. Now it's being lead by an old fart in a wheelchair who can't get it up anymore because of a smelting accident while he was trying to suck his own pecker.

Man, I hate this jerk...

http://techreport.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29951

 

clarkey01

Diamond Member
Feb 4, 2004
3,419
1
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Too bad AMD wont retool FAB 30 due to the cost issues. It'd be great if they could say to dell we have most of FAB 30 dedicated to you etc.

They really need two world class fabs running at the same time...Im still not sure why AXP'S are still 50% of AMD's income. I need to look at the die size of the X2 and see how many 300mm wafer starts @ FAB 36 are going to happen..It's the same old story. They need money.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I'll Admit AMD should have a $300 3900 (Dual 2.0 512KB) and $350 4100 (Dual 2.0 1MB).. Can't think of any reason they don't other than FAB capacity dispite what Ed is saying. Alternitivly they are doing what they've always done with A64 line-up (for good press and must have buyers) release top models first, then offer lower end chips. This is what they'll do too making ED's (and all the other babies) rant a non sequitur.
 

RichUK

Lifer
Feb 14, 2005
10,341
678
126
will the X2's still support cool and quiet, i would have though that they would but am not sure???
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Yea but it's not availaibe on these beta bios that reviewers used.
 

BlingBlingArsch

Golden Member
May 10, 2005
1,249
0
0
cool`n`quiet for each core seperately? ;)
ocing cores seperately?

and can anybody post a list of multi-threaded software? Just to prove me wrong, since i think there isnt much software out yet that would benefit from dual-cores already.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
I found this article and stunned that AMD has no marketing or advertising plans for their new releases. I think this is a big mistake.

"The first topic that I brought up was in regards to AMD's lack of marketing and advertising, particularly in the US, against what seems to be a constant barrage of Intel TV and Internet ads. With a solid performance lead, feature lead and price lead, it would seem that AMD has all the right points to make an effective ad campaign that could address the masses and not just the PC enthusiast market. AMD's response was that the performance and feature advantages that AMD has are already known to those users that are interested or understand those points. The general end user then, may not benefit from such a large scale advertising campaign and thus AMD hasn't delved into it yet."

http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=147

Edit: Another quote from another article. Appears that a number of AMD officials are saying a number of things. I think they need to come out with a central message.

"The debut of the dual-core chips also means the beginning of the end for the Athlon 64 line. "We have no immediate plans for new Athlon 64s," Seckler said. (The top chip right now goes at 2.4GHz). There are also no current plans to come out with a dual-core chip for the Sempron line, AMD's budget processor."

http://news.com.com/AMD+to+unveil+dual-.../2100-1006_3-5723507.html?tag=nefd.top
 

coomar

Banned
Apr 4, 2005
2,431
0
0
if you put an x2 under 300 dollars, why are people going to buy 3200+ and 3500+ or even the san diego 3700+, basically people would buy 3000+, the low end x2 and high end chips, your undercutting half of your socket 939 product line
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
27,286
16,123
136
You don't even need to go under $300. The 820 is $310 in zzf, and it is beats so badly its not funny, and the mobo to support if is not cheap either.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
ZZF is just price gouging. Once other's stock it, it drops immediately. Intel dual-core mobo's having been dropping in price also. $159 at newegg for a 945 mobo and that price will drop once other's stock the board.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
55
91
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
ZZF is just price gouging. Once other's stock it, it drops immediately. Intel dual-core mobo's having been dropping in price also. $159 at newegg for a 945 mobo and that price will drop once other's stock the board.

139.00 dollars now at newegg for Gigabyte 945P board.

 

TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,849
0
0
Originally posted by: BlingBlingArsch
cool`n`quiet for each core seperately? ;)
ocing cores seperately?

and can anybody post a list of multi-threaded software? Just to prove me wrong, since i think there isnt much software out yet that would benefit from dual-cores already.

Pratically any non-gaming software...