Editorial: Android's problem isn't fragmentation, it's contamination

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shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,081
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I appreciate what Google is saying, but the main reason I love Android is the freedom and openness and choice.
If they clamp down on it then Android will not be special to me at all. I could just as easily move to Apple, Palm or Win 7.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
I appreciate what Google is saying, but the main reason I love Android is the freedom and openness and choice.
If they clamp down on it then Android will not be special to me at all. I could just as easily move to Apple, Palm or Win 7.

I've been thinking the same thing. Particularly with the carriers cracking down on tethering, I may actually just throw in the towel on smartphones, and go with a small wifi tablet & a dumbphone.
 

foghorn67

Lifer
Jan 3, 2006
11,883
63
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I've been thinking the same thing. Particularly with the carriers cracking down on tethering, I may actually just throw in the towel on smartphones, and go with a small wifi tablet & a dumbphone.
If it actually does get really silly...I'll go with iOS or PalmOS. And just use the phone for email, occasional web surfing, mp3 playing and app usage.
No more tethering, heavy web surfing, apps that stream.
 

Brian Stirling

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,964
2
0
If it actually does get really silly...I'll go with iOS or PalmOS. And just use the phone for email, occasional web surfing, mp3 playing and app usage.
No more tethering, heavy web surfing, apps that stream.


The whole streaming app stuff never made sense to me but it has been a major selling point for smart phones. The weird thing thou is that the carriers, who are the ones pushing streaming, hate streaming because of the heavy net usage it drives.

I do, however, feel a little sorry for the poor schmucks that bought into the streaming craze and have developed habits that if they don't break will cost them dearly with tiered and metered plans.


Brian
 

Fire&Blood

Platinum Member
Jan 13, 2009
2,333
18
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Meh. Everyone blames Android for fragmentation as if all these phone makers wouldn't make both good and bad phones even if they all ran their own OS's.

People have the option of being naive and believing that all Android phones will perform the same and ignore the fact that not all phones are high end. Even the ones that are, each has it's own definition of high end. It's up to the user to do research and vote with his wallet.

In a subsidized market, all these phones are priced in the same range but their initial value as well as the value retention over time couldn't be more different. Even with carrier exclusivity, one can still find phones that will perform reasonably, though the fast aging mobile hardware is an issue present for all smartphones.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
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Here's the solution in my opinion.... Google should solve the problem with open-ness rather than closed-ness. Google should simply require any smartphone that contains Google branding MUST have an available STOCK ROM associated with it. Then put a stop to the whole locked bootloader concept. Manufacturers can then ship the phone with whatever customized garbage skin they like... so long as they stay true to the principles of an open operating system and offer the end user the choice of which UI experience they wish to use.

Google should enforce open-ness... period. Problem solved
 

Brian Stirling

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,964
2
0
Here's the solution in my opinion.... Google should solve the problem with open-ness rather than closed-ness. Google should simply require any smartphone that contains Google branding MUST have an available STOCK ROM associated with it. Then put a stop to the whole locked bootloader concept. Manufacturers can then ship the phone with whatever customized garbage skin they like... so long as they stay true to the principles of an open operating system and offer the end user the choice of which UI experience they wish to use.

Google should enforce open-ness... period. Problem solved


Here's the problem with what you suggest...

The carriers and makers don't want you to use stock Android and have access to tethering without paying them for the privilege. Also, much of the bloatware is there because the carriers and makers are being paid to have it there so if you eliminate that you cut into there profits.

As has already been stated Android is Google's way to having a strong presence in the mobile search market so there goal is to get as many carriers as possible to offer lots of Android phones. If they start putting the screws to the phone makers and carriers the makers and carriers will decide Android is not in there best interests and stop offering Android phones.


Brian
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
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Here's the problem with what you suggest...

The carriers and makers don't want you to use stock Android and have access to tethering without paying them for the privilege. Also, much of the bloatware is there because the carriers and makers are being paid to have it there so if you eliminate that you cut into there profits.

As has already been stated Android is Google's way to having a strong presence in the mobile search market so there goal is to get as many carriers as possible to offer lots of Android phones. If they start putting the screws to the phone makers and carriers the makers and carriers will decide Android is not in there best interests and stop offering Android phones.


Brian
What will the carriers move on to?
Does Apple allow carriers to install junk? How much "junk" is on the Verizon and AT&T iPhone? I don't think so.
Does Microsoft? How "junk" is on WP7 phones? I'm not sure about this.

Unless they plan to invent their own phone OS, I don't see much places for them to run to.
 

ChAoTiCpInOy

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2006
6,442
1
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What will the carriers move on to?
Does Apple allow carriers to install junk? How much "junk" is on the Verizon and AT&T iPhone? I don't think so.
Does Microsoft? How "junk" is on WP7 phones? I'm not sure about this.

Unless they plan to invent their own phone OS, I don't see much places for them to run to.

Microsoft let's carriers set the tone...
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
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Microsoft let's carriers set the tone...
Which was why I said "I'm not sure about this" on the WP7 part. ;)

Are the "junk" that carriers install on WP7 removable or are they glued to the phone and are irremovable like they are on most locked boot loader Android devices?

I've never heard much complaint about "junk" on WP7, but then again I've never used a WP7 phone or seen anyone with it either.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,473
7,707
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What will the carriers move on to?
...
Unless they plan to invent their own phone OS, I don't see much places for them to run to.

A forked version of Android? 2.3 is out there and open for them to take and make their own derivative, just like all of the handset manufacturers have been doing. They probably won't be able to call it Android, but most consumers won't know or care all that much. They just want a reasonably priced phone and plan.

If the vast majority of the manufacturers decided to turn the cold shoulder to Google, it's possible that some bastardized version of Android could overtake the official Google version.
 

Brian Stirling

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,964
2
0
Almost all phones are sold through the carriers retail stores and ALL phones, in order to act as phones, need access to one or another of the carriers networks so they are in the drivers seat. Google isn't going to jeopardize there cash cow (search) in order to make a few end users, that want to bypass the carriers profit making plans, happier.

Android has a number of things that business types dislike and at the top of the list is the vastly greater tendency of Android users to not pay for things (apps, etc.) and otherwise look to get things for free. Yeah, there's some of this with jail-breaking iPhones but Android users are WAY more likely to NOT buy apps and just use freeware/crapware. So, the carriers are not altogether in love with there customers using Android.

Microsoft has been playing games here by paying Verizon to lock in Bing on the Android phones they sell and I would not put it past M$ to up the ante even more by making Windows Phone more desirable to the carriers. M$ will not hesitate to lock things down like Apple while at the same time letting phone makers and carriers do as they wish.

Interestingly, we may actually see a reduction in the bloatware and other games when the carriers all move to metering. With metering it doesn't matter if you root/jail-break because you will pay for all the data you use no matter what you do with it so if you root for free tethering you better not get too used to it because once you are being metered you'll be paying for it no matter what.


Brian
 

RobertPters77

Senior member
Feb 11, 2011
480
0
0
Even though this is engadget(biased against anything not apple), I have to agree with the author to some extent. I like my droid, I really do. But it feels abit 'wonky' to me. Android was all about bringing google search to the mobile markets, and it did it's job splendidly. I just hope google evolves android into a more professional os.

I'm excited about win phone 7 and win 8 tablet edition. Because, Microsoft always caters to the professional users first. I'd drop my droid in a heartbeat if win phone 7 gave me better smartphone functionality. Akin to my win 7 machines. Likewise with win 8 tablet edition. If it is a fully functional tablet OS that replicates the Windows desktop experience, with the operating system being able to emulate x86 on an ARM based chip. Then it would be an ipad/xoom killer. Can you imagine having a tablet that can run sutocad or photoshop? Or better yet. A tablet that can have peripherals attached like keyboard and mouse and let you play games like Call of Duty or TF2? I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
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A forked version of Android? 2.3 is out there and open for them to take and make their own derivative, just like all of the handset manufacturers have been doing. They probably won't be able to call it Android, but most consumers won't know or care all that much. They just want a reasonably priced phone and plan.

If the vast majority of the manufacturers decided to turn the cold shoulder to Google, it's possible that some bastardized version of Android could overtake the official Google version.
I'm pretty sure not all of Android is completely "open". I doubt any manufacturer can just release and market it as their "Manufacturer OS" either. The manufacturers are probably doing it under a free, but signed license(which means it can probably be revoked).

So for the manufacturers like HTC(Almost all HTC phones have an unlocked boot loader) and LG(G2x) that currently don't release bastardized versions of Android filled with irremovable junk, what's in it for them? What reason would it be for them to completely leave Google and support Motorola or some other manufacturer's bastardized version of Android?

The manufacturers don't have enough expertise in making an OS.
If making an OS was such an easy and profitable thing to do, I'm pretty sure Dell, HP, and Acer would have done it.
 
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lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
Almost all phones are sold through the carriers retail stores and ALL phones, in order to act as phones, need access to one or another of the carriers networks so they are in the drivers seat. Google isn't going to jeopardize there cash cow (search) in order to make a few end users, that want to bypass the carriers profit making plans, happier.

Android has a number of things that business types dislike and at the top of the list is the vastly greater tendency of Android users to not pay for things (apps, etc.) and otherwise look to get things for free. Yeah, there's some of this with jail-breaking iPhones but Android users are WAY more likely to NOT buy apps and just use freeware/crapware. So, the carriers are not altogether in love with there customers using Android.

Microsoft has been playing games here by paying Verizon to lock in Bing on the Android phones they sell and I would not put it past M$ to up the ante even more by making Windows Phone more desirable to the carriers. M$ will not hesitate to lock things down like Apple while at the same time letting phone makers and carriers do as they wish.

Interestingly, we may actually see a reduction in the bloatware and other games when the carriers all move to metering. With metering it doesn't matter if you root/jail-break because you will pay for all the data you use no matter what you do with it so if you root for free tethering you better not get too used to it because once you are being metered you'll be paying for it no matter what.


Brian
Why would the manufacturers and carriers voluntarily want to reduce the profit they earn from installed bloatware because they're moving to metering?
Keeping the bloatware is killing to birds with one stone. You get the $$$ that the app developer(say Blockbuster for example) wants their app as a standard irremovable bloatware on the phone, and you also pay extra from the bloatware accessing your bandwidth(assuming the carriers move to metering you would be charged per MB or whatever the rate is)
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
Even though this is engadget(biased against anything not apple), I have to agree with the author to some extent. I like my droid, I really do. But it feels abit 'wonky' to me. Android was all about bringing google search to the mobile markets, and it did it's job splendidly. I just hope google evolves android into a more professional os.

I'm excited about win phone 7 and win 8 tablet edition. Because, Microsoft always caters to the professional users first. I'd drop my droid in a heartbeat if win phone 7 gave me better smartphone functionality.
Akin to my win 7 machines. Likewise with win 8 tablet edition. If it is a fully functional tablet OS that replicates the Windows desktop experience, with the operating system being able to emulate x86 on an ARM based chip. Then it would be an ipad/xoom killer. Can you imagine having a tablet that can run sutocad or photoshop? Or better yet. A tablet that can have peripherals attached like keyboard and mouse and let you play games like Call of Duty or TF2? I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
I truly believe WP7 is the best OS out there, but unfortunately there are not enough apps for it.
 

RobertPters77

Senior member
Feb 11, 2011
480
0
0
Likewise lothar. I hope that Microsoft put's it's muscle behind win phone 7 and win 8 tablet. Because Apple and Google need good kick in the balls.

In my opinion. Apple is too locked down and restrictive. For a business user it makes little sense. Google on the other hand is free and open. But it makes less sense because business users either can't make money or that the android user is accustomed to free software. The company will have a hard time to compete with the freebies, even though the paid software maybe superior. If WP7 could find that middle ground between the two and exploit it, bringing in the professional's first than the broader consumer market. Microsoft would literally corner the market. Why do you think MS got so big in the 80's? Maybe it had something to with letting almost any user own a Windows PC. Unlike macs that came from source and one player(Talk about Big Brother Irony).

In other words. I hope Windows Phone 7 brings balance to the Force.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,473
7,707
136
I'm pretty sure not all of Android is completely "open". I doubt any manufacturer can just release and market it as their "Manufacturer OS" either. The manufacturers are probably doing it under a free, but signed license(which means it can probably be revoked).

So for the manufacturers like HTC(Almost all HTC phones have an unlocked boot loader) and LG(G2x) that currently don't release bastardized versions of Android filled with irremovable junk, what's in it for them? What reason would it be for them to completely leave Google and support Motorola or some other manufacturer's bastardized version of Android?

The manufacturers don't have enough expertise in making an OS.
If making an OS was such an easy and profitable thing to do, I'm pretty sure Dell, HP, and Acer would have done it.

The Android name is trademarked, but the released code is either under the Apache license or GPL depending on exactly which part of the code it is. The non-kernal stuff is under the Apache license so companies can do whatever they want with it, for the same reason that Google isn't under any obligations to release the source code.

If the manufacturers leave Google, it's because they think Google is exerting too much control. If every manufacturer had to ship the same version of Android, there's nothing to distinguish the manufacturers, which is really bad from their position. That's why the have their own custom UIs. How flexible such a forked version of Android is from the carrier perspective would play a large role in whether or not they'd want to use it.

If the fork was mostly GPL, the carriers might pick it up so long as they could still customize the UI and bundle applications with it. The beauty of truly open source code is that improvements from anywhere get contributed back. One manufacturer might focus on a few areas and the hacker community could also provide updates and fixes. There's no need to assume that Motorola, HTC, Samsung, and other manufacturers are all going to need to keep reinventing the wheel.
 
Feb 19, 2001
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MotoBlur makes the device better for most users, but too many people around here have the Apple mentality- they will decide what is best for everyone. Honestly, I can't stand Blur or Sense but then again, I'm not too fond of stock either. Speaking of Blur in particular, it is the UI that helped launch Android into a major player in the market. From a business perspective it would be horribly moronic for Google to mess with that element. Right now, they have millions in R&D being spent to make the user interface better by a variety of companies, any no brainer improvements they come up with Google can then add their own version to base Android. If it is a preferential issue, then they can leave it be and let users decide which way they want to go by picking out what phone they want.

We seem to have a lot of people under the delusion that the skins are what delays so many companies from getting their updates out faster. Anyone who has even glanced at Android development would quickly notice that custom UIs are very, very easy to do- device drivers for a particular unit aren't.



That just makes it easier, root and deodex and you can do what you want(yes, you can't load a full custom ROM but you can change all the elements to make it just like that ROM, just a bit more work in ADB).



SPB offers a very distinct UI, perhaps check that out before you go get a phone with some rather serious issues just for the UI. No rooting/flashing/deodexing/ROMs or anything else to deal with.

Ok, the problem with Blur is it's terribly made. If this were about Sense or even TouchWiz, I'd argue that at least they're decent. Blur is just poorly made with redundancies and sloppy design. Look at the Engadget review. I mean seriously, wtf Blur. Yes Launcher Pro alone does a better job.

I wouldn't say LP is better than Sense. It's a GOOD launcher, but that's all it is. It's not thoroughly done either, but a LOT better than Blur in terms of quality control. Fede is a one man job and he's focused on doing certain things. He cranked out those Sense-like widgets as fast as he could and that's it. His twitter widget is half-assed if you think about it. While you can tweet, you can't add geolocation or pictures. You can't shorten links. I suggested allowing Launcher Pro to invoke the tweet command on twitter apps instead of him having to write a full fledged Twitter app himself. But it's tough. You can't expect it to be perfect. Anyway, I'm digressing.

Blur makes the experience marginally better. It's more bloated than anything else. Sense and Touchwiz take the choppyass stock launcher and turn the phone into a very usable device for those who don't want to spend forever customizing their phone. I think Sense is worlds ahead of Touchwiz, but at least they're both decently usable.

Blur was not the launching point for Android. The Droid 1 didn't even have it. And sorry, but Motorola was not the main launching point for Android. Maybe in the US it was for the DROID campaign, but honestly, the Motorola Milestone never had the reception that the Droid did, and after the bootloader stunt with the Milestone, you can check out how empty the Milestone 2 forum is on XDA. HTC and Samsung are practically everyone's go-to manufacturers worldwide with LG stepping it up now.

Furthermore, Sense has its roots in Windows Mobile. While the US severely rejected Windows Mobile and used RIM heavily, the rest of the world used Windows Mobile decently back in 2007-2009. Sense already had a huge head start, and so did HTC as a phone manufacturer.
 

thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
9,673
583
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Furthermore, Sense has its roots in Windows Mobile. While the US severely rejected Windows Mobile and used RIM heavily, the rest of the world used Windows Mobile decently back in 2007-2009. Sense already had a huge head start, and so did HTC as a phone manufacturer.

Just agreeing with this point above. I'm in the US and came from an HTC Touch Pro to an HTC Thunderbolt. With phones with enough memory (like the regular Touch Pro, not the bastardized Verizon version, I used Alltel's myself), Sense actually made Windows Mobile 6.1 *usable* on a touch screen. Even when Windows Mobile 6.5 came out I was still enabling Sense on the ROMs I'd use because it simply made the experience alot better.

Coming from that, it's been very comfortable going from WM6.5 to Android 2.2 because the Sense being implemented on WM is very similar to the sense being implemented on Android. I have no problems with Sense. I prefer it to the stock interface and certainly as it stands now my Thunderbolt has memory to blow, unlike my Touch Pro that would start giving low memory warnings with the hacked in Sense with all the eye candy turned on :p

I also like the Launcher Pro interface, but I personally prefer Sense to that. My brother has a Captivate and I honestly don't see that big of a problem with TouchWiz except for the fact that it seems jittery whereas Sense on the Thunderbolt is completely smooth.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
Ok, the problem with Blur is it's terribly made. If this were about Sense or even TouchWiz, I'd argue that at least they're decent. Blur is just poorly made with redundancies and sloppy design. Look at the Engadget review. I mean seriously, wtf Blur. Yes Launcher Pro alone does a better job.

So, what is it that is so bad with Blur? I have several devices on hand that use it, along with all the other popular Android skins(wait, actually I don't have a Streak on hand atm, but noone ever talks about Stage for some reason). What makes Blur inferior to the other skins as you see it?

I wouldn't say LP is better than Sense.

I think you have me confused with someone else, I like ADW better then LP(preference issue entirely) although I do like them both better then Sense, but SPB is an entirely different level of UI IMO.

Blur was not the launching point for Android. The Droid 1 didn't even have it. And sorry, but Motorola was not the main launching point for Android. Maybe in the US it was for the DROID campaign

Close to 10% of the Android market is still on 1.5/1.6- the Droid launched with 2.0. Given a lot of phones running the older versions were updated, and a lot of people who had one of those phones has upgraded by now, the Android market was actually quite large prior to the Droid hitting(although the Droid clearly had a major impact).

Sense annoyances for me, a big one that it shares with Blur- nigh unuseable quick launcher. Great, I get crappy functions I rarely need and am stuck with them. That element alone is a big enough factor for me to dump either one of them. Both Blur and Sense suck the same in that aspect, a bit of the Apple mentality unforunately.

Sense makes their widgets too big with enough flash to outdo DOS, by a little, but still look outdated compared to something like SPB and they don't offer any great levels of functionality. If you are going to have huge widgets, make them impressive or very useful(I'll give them props for their clock/weather widget, that one is pretty decent), don't make them bland, huge and boring which is what they currently are. By comparion, Blur's widgets are at least more compact and don't take over panels for trivial tasks. If I have to chose between not nice to look at and small, or not nice to look at and huge, I'll take the smaller option.

I'd like to get a full Sense UI port to another manufacturers handset at some point and see what their deal is with battery life. Either HTC has the poorest hardware engineers in the business, or something is seriously wrong with Sense in terms of how it utilizes resources. From modding HTC phones, I'm thinking the truth is a little bit of both going on. This is one area that Blur humiliates Sense, and one that I consider a huge issue. Those mid 90s looking giant widgets aren't remotely close to cool enough to justify 5 hours of light useage on a high end device in late 2010.

So, the dock sucks, all but one of the widgets are medicore at best, it is terrible on battery life and the quick launch bar is a joke. Performance wise it is directly comparable to Blur running comparable devices side by side although I'm waiting for HTC to get a true 2011 class phone out as right now the fastest example of both leaves Sense looking downright sluggish(TBolt v Atrix).

In terms of overall launchers I'd give SPB a 9(needs more widgets and more options on some of the ones it already has, other then that spectacular), ADW a 7, LP a 6.5, Blur/TouchWiz a solid 5, stock a 4.5 and Sense a 4.0. If Sense could display battery life comparable to Blur on a comparable handset I'd probably give it a slight edge thanks to the weather/clock widget which you need to spend money on to match with Blur(Stage, for the record, I'd have around a 6, that would push up to around an 8 if it had close the customization options that ADW/LP have).

Edit- Oh yeah, one of the reasons SPB spanks the rest so badly is that it has full GPU acceleration unlike the others.
 
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Brian Stirling

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,964
2
0
Why would the manufacturers and carriers voluntarily want to reduce the profit they earn from installed bloatware because they're moving to metering?
Keeping the bloatware is killing to birds with one stone. You get the $$$ that the app developer(say Blockbuster for example) wants their app as a standard irremovable bloatware on the phone, and you also pay extra from the bloatware accessing your bandwidth(assuming the carriers move to metering you would be charged per MB or whatever the rate is)

Well your right, the carriers will still want to add bloatware, but with metering they will not have to worry about losing money to tethering etc. So, once they all go with metered billing the individual carriers can differentiate from one another by being more or less will to let you own your phones desktop. No guarantee, but I can see it happening...


Brian