Edit: Going To Skid-Row And Pass Out The Most Common Jobs That Pay Median Wage And Requires No Degree Or Experience

[RPD]

At least others have provided evidence of their claims or support for ideas. You've had nothing but the same feels repeated in almost every post you've made, as if repeating it makes it true. It doesn't.

So...you know the primary reasons for homelessness (the opposite of what's been linked with evidence numerous times now), and the best order of operations and methods to care for homeless people and get them off the streets?

Remember that? That's the smell of irony.

I was going to leave it but fuck it.
Explain it to me like I'm 5, step by step how your first step in solving homeless and helping them is to lower the cost of housing.
Do you think these people have some untapped resources or are timing the market or something?
Numerous links? All... two of them...? Wow I'm blown away. One which has this gem:

In their book, Homelessness Is a Housing Problem, the University of Washington professor Gregg Colburn and the data scientist Clayton Page Aldern demonstrate that “the homelessness crisis in coastal cities cannot be explained by disproportionate levels of drug use, mental illness, or poverty.” Rather, the most relevant factors in the homelessness crisis are rent prices and vacancy rates.

Right because I see so many homeless families, mothers and children.

Keep in mind my entire point is lowering cost of housing doesn't do anything for the current homeless population, nothing, nada. So that as a first step seems fairly disingenuous. I don't consider being in a shelter, hospital, or other institution as "housed" because that isn't what is talked about when affordable housing comes up. Affordable housing is apartments or multi-tenant units.

Homelessness in California: Causes and Policy Considerations

siepr.stanford.edu

Link does talk about cost of housing but also:

Some benefits were attributed to Housing First, including higher housing stability, fewer emergency room visits, and improved medication adherence (Tsemberis, Gulcur, and Nakae 2004; Padgett, Henwood, and Tsemberis 2015; Aubry et al. 2016; Buchanan et al. 2009).
Meanwhile, Housing First showed no effects in reducing drug use, alcohol consumption, psychiatric symptoms, or enhancing the quality of life (Rosenheck et al. 2003; Mares, Greenberg, and Rosenheck 2007; Stergiopoulos et al. 2010).

There are also differences in terminologies. In 2019, the Los Angeles Homeless Services Authority released a report showing 25 percent of the unsheltered homeless had a severe mental illness and 14 percent had a substance use disorder. Using the same survey data, the Los Angeles Times showed a much higher prevalence level: about 51 percent with mental illness and 46 percent with substance use disorder. The critical difference lies in the definition of mental health and drug addiction. The government's estimates are lower because they only counted people with a permanent or long-term severe condition (LAHSA 2020).
Appendix Table A.1. contains estimates for the prevalence of mental illness and drug addiction among the homeless. The prevalence is particularly high among the chronically homeless, over 75 percent of whom have substance abuse or a severe mental illness (Kuhn and Culhane 1998; Poulin et al. 2010; Ellen Lockard Edens, Mares, and Rosenheck 2011). Powerful drugs such as P2P methamphetamine induce psychosis, the symptoms of which are sometimes confused with schizophrenia.

IMO this is the one of the major causes of what we are seeing today:

In 1963, President Kennedy signed the Community Mental Health Act into law to provide federal funding for community-based mental health care, aiming at replacing institutional care with community care. At the same time, federal law generally prohibited states from using Medicaid funds to pay for non-elderly adults (i.e., age 21-64) in “institutions for mental disease” (IMDs).2 As state mental hospitals were considered IMDs and ineligible for Medicaid funds, states responded by closing down state mental hospitals (Geller 2000).
As a result of the nationwide deinstitutionalization, the number of mentally ill patients in public psychiatric hospitals plummeted from 558,239 in 1955 to 37,209 in 2016. As shown in Figure 6, the number of patients per 100,000 Americans decreased from 337 in 1955 to 11 in 2016 (Torrey et al. 2012; Treatment Advocacy Center 2016a; SAMHSA 2016).

But maybe this guy who actually walked the walk is talking out of his ass - https://www.denverpost.com/2021/01/12/mike-coffman-homeless-aurora/

The real reason why the encampment inhabitants refuse to access the shelters is simple — the shelters have rules. One rule, in particular, keeps the encampment inhabitants out of shelters and that rule is that drugs and drug use are prohibited.

The point of this is that they don’t even want to use current shelters now voluntarily, but somehow if rent is lower they’ll be good?

 

[Red Squirrel]

Homelessness is a complicated issue. High housing prices and high costs of living, less good paying jobs etc probably play a role, but think it's more complicated than that since lot of those people don't even want basic help. But the issue is when you do build shelters and safe injection sites etc, then it just attracts even more of these people. Someone has to pay for all of that.

I don't think free handouts or housing is the answer, but what is, is to make cheaper housing available in first place, and reduce the amount of red tape when it comes to what you can do on your own land. And also make more cheap land available, like small lots. If someone wants to buy a cheap lot and put a small trailer or van on it and live in it, they should be allowed to. Most jobs looking for employees these days are minimum wage, especially ones that don't require qualifications. So there needs to be a living situation available for those making minimum wage.

That will not solve homelessness as there are always those who just don't want any help or to be bothered to help themselves, but it would at least help those who perhaps lost their job or livelihoods etc for any reason so they can get back on their feet.

 

[dullard]

...

You do have a point that homelessness is related to mental disease and drug use. However, you are ignoring the main treatment for those two issues: stability. Studies show that getting people with mental disease and drug use stability is the most important first step. And that includes housing so that they can work on the rest of their problems. Without stability, they will keep going back to drugs or alcohol or whatever to help ignore their main problems. Housing first works. That gives them the stability they need to get off of drugs, get mental help, etc.

Yes, they don't want rules. Give them housing without rules and they tend to solve their problems. No, it isn't perfect. But it is far more perfect than housing them in tents, jails, and emergency rooms. Housing first is effective, it works, it drastically reduces crime and drug use, it lets them focus on their mental issues, and it is the cheapest successful option we have.

 

[snoopy7548]

IMO we should raze golf courses and build homeless shelters on them.

 

[igor_kavinski]

IMO we should raze golf courses and build homeless shelters on them.

The rich have enough money to build UNDER their golf courses if they had any interest in doing good for humanity.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Perhaps give golf course owners a huge tax break if they allow this in winter, when they're not operating anyway. Could either have some permanent structures along the golf course that have use during season and then turned into housing in winter, or have portables brought in.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The rich have enough money to build UNDER their golf courses if they had any interest in doing good for humanity.

Maybe Elon Musk's Boring Company, should make underground homeless shelters instead, UNDER the streets / parks / stadiums, etc.

Kind of like Demolition Man, where the surface streets are pristine and orderly, and all of the "homeless" / undesireables literally live underground.

They could have a tunnel system that could connect the country, and live their entire lives below ground.

 

[Pohemi]

You do have a point that homelessness is related to mental disease and drug use. However, you are ignoring the main treatment for those two issues: stability. Studies show that getting people with mental disease and drug use stability is the most important first step. And that includes housing so that they can work on the rest of their problems. Without stability, they will keep going back to drugs or alcohol or whatever to help ignore their main problems. Housing first works. That gives them the stability they need to get off of drugs, get mental help, etc.

Yes, they don't want rules. Give them housing without rules and they tend to solve their problems. No, it isn't perfect. But it is far more perfect than housing them in tents, jails, and emergency rooms. Housing first is effective, it works, it drastically reduces crime and drug use, it lets them focus on their mental issues, and it is the cheapest successful option we have.

Yeah butbutbut Ajay says you can find them housing WHILE they're confined to a hospital or treatment center. Because that would be the cheapest, easiest, and most timely process. Supposedly.

Yeah...I'm not sure what the fuck he's smoking either.

 

[Charmonium]

Maybe Elon Musk's Boring Company, should make underground homeless shelters instead, UNDER the streets / parks / stadiums, etc.

Kind of like Demolition Man, where the surface streets are pristine and orderly, and all of the "homeless" / undesireables literally live underground.

They could have a tunnel system that could connect the country, and live their entire lives below ground.

Yes! finally! RELEASE the CHUDs

 

[Pohemi]

I was going to leave it but fuck it.
Explain it to me like I'm 5, step by step how your first step in solving homeless and helping them is to lower the cost of housing.

The simple answer is: stability. And a five year old explanation is pointless when you stomp your feet, refusing to look at or acknowledge anything other than your feels.

I find it crazy how you rail against giving them affordable housing because, 'yOu CaN'T cOnTrOl hOuSiNg PrIcEs!!!!1' and yet don't realize or acknowledge the cost of hospitalizations, ERs, or treatment centers, where you expect them to take up residency until someone finds them a more permanent subsidized housing arrangement.

Holy illogical, Batman.

Numerous links? All... two of them...? Wow I'm blown away.

There's more than two that were posted, but okay. How are your two links here more true or more of an authority than what's been posted already? Why should we even glance at yours, when you've obviously not done the same over the past 4 pages?

Right because I see so many homeless families, mothers and children.

'I don't see them, so they obviously don't exist anywhere outside my more affluent neighborhood and bubble.'

But maybe this guy who actually walked the walk is talking out of his ass - https://www.denverpost.com/2021/01/12/mike-coffman-homeless-aurora/

Anecdotal appeal to authority by proxy (since you obviously have none on this topic.) Have YOU YOURSELF ever been homeless? Didn't think so. Ever worked with homeless people? Didn't think so.

 

[RPD]

The simple answer is: stability. And a five year old explanation is pointless when you stomp your feet, refusing to look at or acknowledge anything other than your feels.

I find it crazy how you rail against giving them affordable housing because, 'yOu CaN'T cOnTrOl hOuSiNg PrIcEs!!!!1' and yet don't realize or acknowledge the cost of hospitalizations, ERs, or treatment centers, where you expect them to take up residency until someone finds them a more permanent subsidized housing arrangement.

Holy illogical, Batman.

There's more than two that were posted, but okay. How are your two links here more true or more of an authority than what's been posted already? Why should we even glance at yours, when you've obviously not done the same over the past 4 pages?

'I don't see them, so they obviously don't exist anywhere outside my more affluent neighborhood and bubble.'

Anecdotal appeal to authority by proxy (since you obviously have none on this topic.) Have YOU YOURSELF ever been homeless? Didn't think so. Ever worked with homeless people? Didn't think so.

You've posted nothing backing up anything other than I don't agree with anything you (me) has provided thus far.
But again, at no point did you ever explain how the first step in helping the people on the streets right now is lowing the cost of living. No where, you just keep skipping over that.
Stability, so a population with zero means or resources is suddenly going to get into a house because it's 25-50% less expensive? They are just timing the market, got it. Hey guys can I pay rent with my sTaBiLiTy? That is probably about as good as exposure is for artists trying to pay bills.
Yes I have actually worked with homeless people, no I haven't been homeless. That a bragging point now? I can't discuss the topic because I haven't actually lived it? Bravo.
Please show me where I'm against lowering the cost of housing, quote me on it. I'll wait.

Keep to your talking points though.

 

[RPD]

You do have a point that homelessness is related to mental disease and drug use. However, you are ignoring the main treatment for those two issues: stability. Studies show that getting people with mental disease and drug use stability is the most important first step. And that includes housing so that they can work on the rest of their problems. Without stability, they will keep going back to drugs or alcohol or whatever to help ignore their main problems. Housing first works. That gives them the stability they need to get off of drugs, get mental help, etc.

Yes, they don't want rules. Give them housing without rules and they tend to solve their problems. No, it isn't perfect. But it is far more perfect than housing them in tents, jails, and emergency rooms. Housing first is effective, it works, it drastically reduces crime and drug use, it lets them focus on their mental issues, and it is the cheapest successful option we have.

Someone quote me on where I said I'm against lowering the cost of housing. My entire point is as a first step, it isn't going to help the people currently on the street RIGHT NOW.
I do enjoy how I've stated lowering the cost of housing as a FIRST step doesn't help current homeless on the streets has been twisted to HE'S AGAINST LOWERING THE COST OF HOUSING!!@!111

 

[dullard]

Someone quote me on where I said I'm against lowering the cost of housing. My entire point is as a first step, it isn't going to help the people currently on the street RIGHT NOW.

You are the only one here mentioning the cost of housing. The rest of us are mentioning putting them in housing right away. Say, like the motel rooms you mentioned and the LA mayor might be fighting for in the declared state of emergency.

 

[Captante]

You are the only one here mentioning the cost of housing. The rest of us are mentioning putting them in housing right away.

Don't confuse him ... he's too busy being "right" winning an argument that only he is taking part in.

Say, like the motel rooms you mentioned and the LA mayor might be fighting for in the declared state of emergency.

Or like New Haven and CT Social Services are doing "RIGHT NOW" @ zero out of pocket cost to the folks that need them.


I know for a FIRST-HAND fact that:

(1) There are MULTIPLE single mothers with kids in the motels "RIGHT NOW".

(2) The vast majority of people given these rooms benefit tremendously from having them and MANY transition either to a "section 8" state funded apartment after the waiting period.

The people in these hotels ALL got off the street "RIGHT NOW" too.

 

[lxskllr]

I feel like this thread's drifted too far from making fun of Gizmo. That's why we're all here, right?!

 

[RPD]

You are the only one here mentioning the cost of housing. The rest of us are mentioning putting them in housing right away. Say, like the motel rooms you mentioned and the LA mayor might be fighting for in the declared state of emergency.

Post #23. The one I first responded to.
Guess I'll keep waiting for someone to quote me being against affordable housing.
I've stated I don't consider the temporary stuff under the umbrella of affordable housing, as the stuff being considered new construction for affordable housing are multi-family homes or apartments, not motels/hotels as temporary shelters.

 

[dullard]

Post #23. The one I first responded to.
Guess I'll keep waiting for someone to quote me being against affordable housing.
I've stated I don't consider the temporary stuff under the umbrella of affordable housing, as the stuff being considered new construction for affordable housing are multi-family homes or apartments, not motels/hotels as temporary shelters.

Post #23 is not against affordable housing. No one will quote you being against affordable housing because no one is against affordable housing. The debate is should the first thing be housing or should we pretend they can fix their problems when they have no idea if they'll have food tonight or a even place to sleep.

 

[Captante]

Post #23 is not against affordable housing. No one will quote you being against affordable housing because no one is against affordable housing. The debate is should the first thing be housing or should we pretend they can fix their problems when they have no idea if they'll have food tonight or a even place to sleep.

All he's concerned about is proving some imaginary point to pump up his ego or something ... don't waste your breath.

 

[RPD]

Post #23 is not against affordable housing. No one will quote you being against affordable housing because no one is against affordable housing. The debate is should the first thing be housing or should we pretend they can fix their problems when they have no idea if they'll have food tonight or a even place to sleep.

Which I've explained, yes they should absolutely be cared for and put in temporary shelter, I just don't consider this tempory shelter falling under "affordable housing" in the sense of how affordable housing is being bandied about by municipalities.

All he's concerned about is proving some imaginary point to pump up his ego or something ... don't waste your breath.

Ah sucks you can't actually back up anything you've claimed.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Let's just say, I have some (limited) experience with the topic, having spent a couple of days on a "homeless sabbatical" (in my 20s) for a couple of days, took a bus to NYC, wandered around there all day, then came back to a suburb of Boston, and spent another day, trying to get some sleep, before calling a parent desperately to take me home.

Anyways, fast-forward a few years, diagnosed with a (very serious) mental illness after a series of hospitalizations (one in HS), got on disability finally, was able to get an apt of my own in rent-controlled (portion of income, though not actually Section 8) public (disabled / elderly) housing thanks to help from an agency and "my DMH guy". If I hadn't managed to obtain an income and an apt. (with help), I probably would be homeless and dead, or worse, enslaved somewhere.

I'm VERY lucky, as it were, that things just kind of fell into place for me. Support is crucial, to avoid relapsing into bad behaviour, not taking meds, etc. that could lead to loss of housing and homelessness. I have an agency, that looks out for me.

I still struggle a lot, and I'm now housebound with long covid (in theory that's what caused it), but I'm alive, and managing. I'm one of the lucky ones, one of the (so far) success stories, although being housebound sucks.

And while my income and housing and medications and insurance and appts. aren't free for the people of this Commonwealth (free for me, mostly), it's still WAY cheaper, as I understand it, than even a "mild" two-week inpatient stay at a psych ward., to say nothing of the expense and loss of freedom, if I were ever to get so much worse that I had to be institutionalized. That gets expensive. So I do my best to try to stay mostly as healthy as I can, take my meds on time, and avoid hospital stays from here on out. Both to save my sanity, and to save taxpayers' money.

Edit: To more directly address the issue at hand, if I were in psychosis, I would need to be stabilized with meds, before I could realistically be placed in housing.
So, I'm not entirely sure about "housing first", although, I could see it working, if someone arranged housing with/for me when I was being released from the hospital, as somewhere to go and live as part of my discharge plans.

My particular case didn't work out that way exactly, but I could see that working. But just dropping me off in a new-to-me apt., and handing me the keys, if I were still under psychosis, probably wouldn't work so well. Case in point, the Cheez thread, when he got set up with a rooming-house, he was still under the influence of psychosis (allegedly), and thought that his neighbors were "demons", and he soon left housing, to go live in the woods, IIRC.

The only reason that housing is expensive, besides maintenance, and heating/cooling/water/power, is scarcity/availability. Simply put, we need more affordable housing, which means building more housing, period. Doesn't have to be "public" housing, but there should probably some suggested ratio, relative to rental unit occupation in the town.

 

[Captante]

Which I've explained, yes they should absolutely be cared for and put in temporary shelter, I just don't consider this tempory shelter falling under "affordable housing" in the sense of how affordable housing is being bandied about by municipalities.

Ah sucks you can't actually back up anything you've claimed.

More like you suck & I'm not wasting another instant or thought on you.

Happy being ignored!

 

[RPD]

More like you suck & I'm not wasting another instant or thought on you.

Happy being ignored!

 

[Gizmo j]

I just passed out like 25 flyers at Skid-Row, everything turned out fine. People we're really appreciative.

 

[Captante]

I just passed out like 25 flyers at Skid-Row, everything turned out fine. People we're really appreciative.

Glad you survived despite all the crap I give you.

 

[Pohemi]

Glad you survived despite all the crap I give you.

Yeah when I told him not to get himself shanked, I wasn't being facetious...much.