Ebert -Public prayer fanatics borrow page from enemy's script :)

[0roo0roo]

Public prayer fanatics borrow page from enemy's script

March 5, 2003

BY ROGER EBERT








The Bush administration has been dealt a setback in its campaign to allow prayer in our public schools. The full 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals has voted 15-9 to back the 2-1 vote by its earlier panel finding the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional because of the words ''under God.''

The pledge, written in 1892, had those words added to it in 1954, during the Eisenhower administration, and I remember a nun in our Catholic school telling us we had to say it because it was the law--but it was wrong, because it violated the principle of separating church and state.

We started every day with classroom prayer at St. Mary's School, of course, but Sister Rosanne said there was a difference between voluntary prayer in a private religious school and prayer in a school paid for by every taxpayer--a distinction so obvious that Bush and Attorney General John Ashcroft are forced to willfully ignore it.

Ashcroft said after the ruling that his Justice Department will ''spare no effort to preserve the rights of all our citizens to pledge allegiance to the American flag''--a misrepresentation so blatant that it functions as a lie. The pledge remains intact and unchallenged. The court said nothing about pledging allegiance to the flag. It spoke only of the words ''under God''--which amounted, the court said, to an endorsement of religion.

This is really an argument between two kinds of prayer--vertical and horizontal. I don't have the slightest problem with vertical prayer. It is horizontal prayer that frightens me. Vertical prayer is private, directed upward toward heaven. It need not be spoken aloud, because God is a spirit and has no ears. Horizontal prayer must always be audible, because its purpose is not to be heard by God, but to be heard by fellow men standing within earshot.

To choose an example from football, when my team needs a field goal to win and I think, ''Please, dear God, let them make it!''--that is vertical prayer. When, before the game, a group of fans joins hands and ''voluntarily'' recites the Lord's Prayer--that is horizontal prayer. It serves one of two purposes: to encourage me to join them, or to make me feel excluded.

Although some of the horizontal devout are sincere, others use this prayer as a device of recruitment or intimidation. If you are conspicuous in your refusal to go along, they may even turn and pray while holding you directly in their sights.

This simple insight about two kinds of prayer, which is beyond theological question, should bring a dead halt to the obsession with prayer in public places. It doesn't, because the purpose of its supporters is political, not spiritual. Their faith is like Dial soap: Now that they use it, they wish everyone would. I grew up in an America where people of good breeding did not impose their religious convictions upon those they did not know very well. Now those manners have been discarded.

Our attorney general, John Ashcroft, is theoretically responsible for enforcing the separation of church and state. He violates his oath of office daily by getting down on his knees in his government office every morning and welcoming federal employees to join him in ''voluntary'' prayer on carpets paid for by the taxpayers.

His brand of religion is specifically fundamentalist evangelical. As his eyes lift from beneath lowered lids to take informal attendance, would he be gladdened to see a Muslim, a Catholic, a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Baha'i, a Unitarian, a Scientologist, all accompanied by the chants of Hare Krishnas?

Under Bush we have had a great deal of horizontal prayer, in which we evoke the deity at political events to send the sideways message that our enemies had better look out, because God is on our side. This week's Newsweek cover story reports that the Bush presidency ''is the most resolutely 'faith-based' in modern times.''

Because our enemies are for the most part more enthusiastic about horizontal prayer than we are, and see absolutely no difference between church and state--indeed, want to make them the same--it is alarming to reflect that they may be having more success bringing us around to their point of view than we are at sticking to our own traditional American beliefs about freedom of religion. When Ashcroft and his enemies both begin their days with displays of their godliness, do we feel safer after they rise from their devotions?
http://www.suntimes.com/output/eb-feature/cst-edt-ebert05.html

 

[Spoooon]

I don't understand why people have a hard time with excluding the words "Under God" from the pledge, especially given the historical context in which those words were added. Let's just strike those words from the pledge, and then everyone can continue on their merry way.

edit: The whole sideways-prayer thing, I tend to agree with what Ebert is saying. People have a hard time looking at things from another person's shoes. If you believe in God, then you most likely have no problems with its inclusion into daily events. But it's hard for some people to understand why if you're a Buddhist or atheist or whatever God's inclusion makes those other people uncomfortable.

 

[Toasthead]

This ruling will get overturned by the Supreme Court as does most of the 9th courts ruilings. And This author is incorrect. The ruiling strictly phohibits the reciting of the pledge of allegiance, not just the Under God part.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I think the pledge should be banned from schools regardless of whether or not the 'under God' remains. I hear 5 year olds reciting it and I can't help but think of indoctrination and blind patriotism. Not exactly something that should be instilled in kids when the whole point of school should be to strengthen critical thinking and reasoning skills. Plus the fact it cheapens the whole thing because you are doing because everyone else is and you'll get in trouble if you don't. And finally, a point I have yet to hear from anyone on either side of this is that the pledge could very well be considered idol worship by some who are religious.

 

[althor27]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
I think the pledge should be banned from schools regardless of whether or not the 'under God' remains. I hear 5 year olds reciting it and I can't help but think of indoctrination and blind patriotism. Not exactly something that should be instilled in kids when the whole point of school should be to strengthen critical thinking and reasoning skills. Plus the fact it cheapens the whole thing because you are doing because everyone else is and you'll get in trouble if you don't. And finally, a point I have yet to hear from anyone on either side of this is that the pledge could very well be considered idol worship by some who are religious.

Ummmm....ok, i what country do you currently live? Do you actually believe that the expression of the patriotism for ones country should be banned...WOW. Lets not let schools fly flags either, or learn about American history. Great concept!

 

[Infos]

I don't understand why people have a hard time with excluding the words "Under God" from the pledge, especially given the historical context in which those words were added. Let's just strike those words from the pledge, and then everyone can continue on their merry way.

It might be something to do with the fact that religion is the epicentre of hypocrisy. :disgust:
with the roman catholic church out ahead by a mile

 

[Spoooon]

Originally posted by: althor27

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
I think the pledge should be banned from schools regardless of whether or not the 'under God' remains. I hear 5 year olds reciting it and I can't help but think of indoctrination and blind patriotism. Not exactly something that should be instilled in kids when the whole point of school should be to strengthen critical thinking and reasoning skills. Plus the fact it cheapens the whole thing because you are doing because everyone else is and you'll get in trouble if you don't. And finally, a point I have yet to hear from anyone on either side of this is that the pledge could very well be considered idol worship by some who are religious.

Ummmm....ok, i what country do you currently live? Do you actually believe that the expression of the patriotism for ones country should be banned...WOW. Lets not let schools fly flags either, or learn about American history. Great concept!

I think you're overreacting to what Gonad said. Blind patriotism is not a good thing and it is his opinion that the pledge could contribute to that.

Though, in my experience, reciting the pledge has little or no meaning because it is such a mindless activity. I remember in elementary school having to do it... and doing it not because I felt any love for country or anything but because it was just another chore to do during the school day.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Originally posted by: Spoooon

Originally posted by: althor27

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
I think the pledge should be banned from schools regardless of whether or not the 'under God' remains. I hear 5 year olds reciting it and I can't help but think of indoctrination and blind patriotism. Not exactly something that should be instilled in kids when the whole point of school should be to strengthen critical thinking and reasoning skills. Plus the fact it cheapens the whole thing because you are doing because everyone else is and you'll get in trouble if you don't. And finally, a point I have yet to hear from anyone on either side of this is that the pledge could very well be considered idol worship by some who are religious.

Ummmm....ok, i what country do you currently live? Do you actually believe that the expression of the patriotism for ones country should be banned...WOW. Lets not let schools fly flags either, or learn about American history. Great concept!

I think you're overreacting to what Gonad said. Blind patriotism is not a good thing and it is his opinion that the pledge could contribute to that.

Though, in my experience, reciting the pledge has little or no meaning because it is such a mindless activity. I remember in elementary school having to do it... and doing it not because I felt any love for country or anything but because it was just another chore to do during the school day.

That's exactly another point I was trying to make. It turns what should be a very meaningful & profound activity into one with no feeling or thought behind it at all.

 

[AndrewR]

Since when has anything Roger Ebert had to say mattered? That fat bag of wind was always second chair to Siskel and only gained top billing with his co-worker's death. Certainly, a movie critic -- and a bad one at that -- is my favorite choice for constitutional law scholar.

 

[gopunk]

does the ruling really prohibit students from reciting it? i was under the impression it simply prohibits schools from endorsing students to recite it.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: AndrewR
Since when has anything Roger Ebert had to say mattered? That fat bag of wind was always second chair to Siskel and only gained top billing with his co-worker's death. Certainly, a movie critic -- and a bad one at that -- is my favorite choice for constitutional law scholar.

Yet his Horizontal and Vertical Prayer Analogy was right on the mark.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: AndrewR
Since when has anything Roger Ebert had to say mattered? That fat bag of wind was always second chair to Siskel and only gained top billing with his co-worker's death. Certainly, a movie critic -- and a bad one at that -- is my favorite choice for constitutional law scholar.

he's still a helluva lot better than roeper though, you must admit.

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: AndrewR
Since when has anything Roger Ebert had to say mattered? That fat bag of wind was always second chair to Siskel and only gained top billing with his co-worker's death. Certainly, a movie critic -- and a bad one at that -- is my favorite choice for constitutional law scholar.

Nice sidestep.

Or not so nice, as the case may be.

😉

 

[ScottyB]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
I think the pledge should be banned from schools regardless of whether or not the 'under God' remains. I hear 5 year olds reciting it and I can't help but think of indoctrination and blind patriotism. Not exactly something that should be instilled in kids when the whole point of school should be to strengthen critical thinking and reasoning skills. Plus the fact it cheapens the whole thing because you are doing because everyone else is and you'll get in trouble if you don't. And finally, a point I have yet to hear from anyone on either side of this is that the pledge could very well be considered idol worship by some who are religious.

You should watch "Highschool" by Frederick Wiseman (1969). http://us.imdb.com/Title?0064429 It's illegal to watch in the Pittsburg area though.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: ScottyB

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
I think the pledge should be banned from schools regardless of whether or not the 'under God' remains. I hear 5 year olds reciting it and I can't help but think of indoctrination and blind patriotism. Not exactly something that should be instilled in kids when the whole point of school should be to strengthen critical thinking and reasoning skills. Plus the fact it cheapens the whole thing because you are doing because everyone else is and you'll get in trouble if you don't. And finally, a point I have yet to hear from anyone on either side of this is that the pledge could very well be considered idol worship by some who are religious.

You should watch "Highschool" by Frederick Wiseman (1969). http://us.imdb.com/Title?0064429 It's illegal to watch in the Pittsburg area though.

how can it be illegal to watch a movie? or is this pittsburgh, iraq?

 

[ScottyB]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: ScottyB

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
I think the pledge should be banned from schools regardless of whether or not the 'under God' remains. I hear 5 year olds reciting it and I can't help but think of indoctrination and blind patriotism. Not exactly something that should be instilled in kids when the whole point of school should be to strengthen critical thinking and reasoning skills. Plus the fact it cheapens the whole thing because you are doing because everyone else is and you'll get in trouble if you don't. And finally, a point I have yet to hear from anyone on either side of this is that the pledge could very well be considered idol worship by some who are religious.

You should watch "Highschool" by Frederick Wiseman (1969). http://us.imdb.com/Title?0064429 It's illegal to watch in the Pittsburg area though.

how can it be illegal to watch a movie? or is this pittsburgh, iraq?

They school board took it to court and got it banned in the area by some judge, I guess. We watched a bootlegged copy the other day in one of my classes. If you are liberal you may hate the school, if you are conservative you may love it. It was funny because my teacher was like, "If you are a flaming liberal, like myself, you will love this movie."

 

[notfred]

Originally posted by: ScottyB

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: ScottyB

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
I think the pledge should be banned from schools regardless of whether or not the 'under God' remains. I hear 5 year olds reciting it and I can't help but think of indoctrination and blind patriotism. Not exactly something that should be instilled in kids when the whole point of school should be to strengthen critical thinking and reasoning skills. Plus the fact it cheapens the whole thing because you are doing because everyone else is and you'll get in trouble if you don't. And finally, a point I have yet to hear from anyone on either side of this is that the pledge could very well be considered idol worship by some who are religious.

You should watch "Highschool" by Frederick Wiseman (1969). http://us.imdb.com/Title?0064429 It's illegal to watch in the Pittsburg area though.

how can it be illegal to watch a movie? or is this pittsburgh, iraq?

They school board took it to court and got it banned in the area by some judge, I guess. We watched a bootlegged copy the other day in one of my classes. If you are liberal you may hate the school, if you are conservative you may love it. It was funny because my teacher was like, "If you are a flaming liberal, like myself, you will love this movie."

Schools not being allowed to show it, and it being illegal are two compeletly different things.

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: AndrewR
Since when has anything Roger Ebert had to say mattered? That fat bag of wind was always second chair to Siskel and only gained top billing with his co-worker's death. Certainly, a movie critic -- and a bad one at that -- is my favorite choice for constitutional law scholar.

he's still a helluva lot better than roeper though, you must admit.

I really have no idea because I don't watch that show unless I'm looking at movie clips for something I might want to see and happen to run across the show (ie., rarely). I try not to listen to what they actually say.

I do have to admit that I think movie critics are generally blowhards looking to justify their own existence. Siskel was all right as far as they are concerned. 😉

Yet his Horizontal and Vertical Prayer Analogy was right on the mark.

For the paranoid, perhaps. I fail to see how someone else's prayer makes me feel "excluded".

 

[sandorski]

In the immortal words of the Christian rocker Steve Taylor, "I want to be a clone!"(FYI, he was speaking against conformity, not for it 😉 )

At first I was shocked that Ebert had written this, he being a lowly movie critic and all, but he was spot on! If you want to pray, go ahead, but wanting everyone else to pray with you just cheapens the whole works.

 

[gopunk]

For the paranoid, perhaps. I fail to see how someone else's prayer makes me feel "excluded".

perhaps you should take an introductory psychology course. it's not hard really... if you are in a group, and everybody else is doing something, and you are not... it is not uncommon to feel awkward and out of place.

 

[przero]

gopunk - "if you are in a group, and everybody else is doing something, and you are not... it is not uncommon to feel awkward and out of place."

Then everyone one else should cease so you don't feel out of place?

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: przero
gopunk - "if you are in a group, and everybody else is doing something, and you are not... it is not uncommon to feel awkward and out of place."

Then everyone one else should cease so you don't feel out of place?

ah but you left out the statement i was responding to. i was simply showing him how other people's actions can make someone feel excluded.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

I thought ignoring the message and attacking the messenger was something a "typical liberal" would do? Nice job AndrewR.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

everytime i read one of these ATOT threads that have religious / political dimensions I can't help but think of that movie Dogma. Faith --> Beliefs --> Dogma.

Religion doesn't need a government sponsership anymore than a government needs a religious godhead.

 

[przero]

Ah "When, before the game, a group of fans joins hands and ''voluntarily'' recites the Lord's Prayer--that is horizontal prayer. It serves one of two purposes: to encourage me to join them, or to make me feel excluded."

Mr. Critic assumes that these people don't gather to recite the "Lord's Prayer" to aks for guidence from the Lord. He presupposes to know my motive. That sirs, makes that statement false. there goes is horizontal prayer theory. Unless of course he is paranoid!