EAX/surround headset

[DeJuan N. Onley]

I like my Logitech G35 headset but the lack of EAX is getting very annoying. So it is time to upgrade and I'm looking for some advice. I watch Blu-Ray movies as well as play games (mainly older ones where EAX is a must). So both EAX and Dolby/DTS are required. There is no real price limit but I don't want to waste my money either.

I have a Creative Audigy card and I'm considering upgrading to an Auzentech X-Meridian or X-Fi Bravura. Any thoughts on these cards? I'm assuming a sound card is preferred over a USB headset with built-in card and both of these cards seem to have decent EAX support.

Assuming I get one of these cards, the headset would have to have multiple 3.5mm plugs to get the analog surround output correct? This is where I'm having the biggest issue. So far I have only found one headset with this setup: the Turtle Beach TBS-2114. Any thoughts on this? Is there a better choice out there?

Obviously if I do go with a USB-only headset, it would have to be a Creative Labs in order to get EAX. But I couldn't find the technical details on their headsets for the surround sound. Do they have separate drivers or is it emulated surround?

I even considered one of those hybrid headsets that have both a stereo 3.5mm plug and USB for the built-in surround. That would get me EAX out of my sound card albeit in 2 channels rather than the 4 channels that EAX games support (correct me if I'm wrong here).

Maybe someone has a better idea entirely. If so I am open to suggestions.

Update: Please don't explain to me why I am better off with a stereo headset. I realize some prefer them and I know I'm probably giving up some sound quality. But this is primarily for gaming and I have my Onkyo receiver and Polk Audio speaker setup in my living room.

FYI: I do have a 4.1 Creative Labs speaker setup that I use occasionally for EAX support but my baby brothers are living with me until they graduate from college so the headset is to maintain my sanity.

 

[Ross Ridge]

I like my Logitech G35 headset but the lack of EAX is getting very annoying.

EAX isn't what you think it it is. It's not a surround sound format, it's an API so games can use the DSP on Creative soundcards to implement various environment effects, like making it sound like you're in cave. It's pretty much obsolete at this point, because these effects can be generated on the CPU with virtually no performance hit.

Creative cards have their own virtual surround sound technology called CMSS-3D that you could use with any normal (non-USB) headphones. There are also some soundcards with Dolby Headphone support, the same technology used by your Logitech G35, although there's problaby none that also support EAX.

 

[DeJuan N. Onley]

EAX isn't what you think it it is. It's not a surround sound format, it's an API so games can use the DSP on Creative soundcards to implement various environment effects

I realize EAX is not a surround format. I know it is a common mistake. My point remains. Older games lose a lot of their environmental sound effects without EAX, which is not supported by any USB headsets that I'm aware of except those made by Creative Labs.

It's pretty much obsolete at this point, because these effects can be generated on the CPU with virtually no performance hit.

They can be and are on newer games but not older ones. If it was possible to simulate EAX without a compatible sound card there would be no need for ALchemy.

Creative cards have their own virtual surround sound technology called CMSS-3D that you could use with any normal (non-USB) headphones.

But this wouldn't help for Dolby/DTS. As I said in the original post I'm looking for a headset solution that provides for both EAX and true surround sound. It is looking to me like the solution is a new sound card and a headset that has multiple 3.5mm connections for hooking up to all the channels on the card.

 

[DeJuan N. Onley]

Perhaps I need to clarify. Here are my requirements:

1) Headset
2) EAX support (either on the headset or via sound card)
3) Dolby Digital and DTS
4) Comfortable (doesn't leave me with a headache after an hour of use)

Although not required it would be nice if the EAX effects could be heard while using more than 2 channels since many EAX-capable games support 4 channels. (One of the options I considered would have meant using USB for surround and a 3.5mm plug on the sound card. This would work but I would lose the rear channels if I wanted to enable EAX effects which is annoying.)

Perhaps the title of the thread was poorly chosen. It wasn't meant to imply there was a relationship between EAX effects and surround sound. Just that I'm looking for a headset solution that provides both.

 

[Ross Ridge]

But this wouldn't help for Dolby/DTS. As I said in the original post I'm looking for a headset solution that provides for both EAX and true surround sound.

You can't have true surround sound with headphones. Your current headphones creates virutalized surround sound using Dolby Headphone, and they don't seem to support Dolby Digtal or DTS. Your Blu-Ray player is probably is decoding (if necessary) the multi-channel soundtrack into uncompressed multi-channel PCM and sending that to the soundcard (ie. your Logitech G35). If so that should work just as well with CMSS-3D or anyone else's virtual surround sound system.

From Logitech's Logitech G35 Headset: Under the Hood blog entry:

Blu-ray Disc or DVD movies may require third-party movie playback applications with additional Dolby or DTS decoders necessary for a complete surround sound experience. Check the application developer’s website to find out if the version of your movie player includes multi-channel Dolby or DTS decoders for your movie.

 

[DeJuan N. Onley]

I didn't ask about the G35. Nor am I interested in getting sidetracked by terminology, but I do have to disagree with you on one point. There are in fact headsets that offer true surround sound such as the Turtle Beach model I mentioned in the original post. Saying something will work just as well doesn't really answer my question. Not trying to argue here. Just trying to get back to my original set of questions. I know it is possible to achieve what I want. A combination of an X-Fi or comparable card and the Turtle Beach TBS-2114 is one way. I'm just not convinced it is the best, which is why I asked for feedback. I'm not willing to give up EAX, Dolby, or DTS... so does anyone know what the best way is to get these with a headset on a PC?

Has anyone had any experience with the cards or headset I mentioned? Or have a better way of achieving my goal?

Edit: I'm sorry if that sounded snippy. But I did ask specific questions in my original post. Everyone is welcome to their own opinion. You may be right. Maybe EAX isn't needed (though I personally notice a big difference in sound quality on many older games without it). Maybe emulated surround sound on a stereo headset is just as good as a headset that natively supports it. I'm skeptical about that but I could be wrong. I would think that unless the software was written to natively detect that you were running the emulated surround sound that the quality would be sub-par at best. For example: let's say I'm playing a flight simulator. If I have a stereo headset and I'm using emulated surround sound, how would the driver know when to emulate the sound of the engines behind me or in front of me? I also doubt that emulated surround sound on a stereo headset could be nearly as effective as a headset with multiple speakers. Again, that is just my opinion and I respect yours. I would still like to know the answers to my questions though.

 

[Ross Ridge]

I didn't ask about the G35. Nor am I interested in getting sidetracked by terminology...

*sigh*

Since your existing headphones don't support Dobly Digital or DTS, and yet apparently offer everything you want except EAX support, why are you insisting on making Dolby Digital and DTS support a requirement? Why wouldn't regular headphones paired with a Creative sound card supporting both EAX and CMSS-3D give you what you call "true surround sound" combined with EAX?

 

[DeJuan N. Onley]

*sigh*

Since your existing headphones don't support Dobly Digital or DTS, and yet apparently offer everything you want except EAX support, why are you insisting on making Dolby Digital and DTS support a requirement? Why wouldn't regular headphones paired with a Creative sound card supporting both EAX and CMSS-3D give you what you call "true surround sound" combined with EAX?

I see where you are coming from now. I guess I should have clarified that I'm looking to upgrade not just keep the status quo. Looking for the best solution. Guess I was kind of hoping there was something better than just emulated surround and stereo headsets. But if that really is all that's out there I guess it will have to do. So the headsets with 8 separate speakers are useless?

Edit: in retrospect I guess I shouldn't have even mentioned what I had if it led you to believe that was good enough for me. I was simply trying to point out the limited experience I had with surround headsets and that I was fairly happy with my first attempt. Just isn't making the cut anymore. I also apologize for getting frustrated. I was hoping someone could answer my questions. I know you are trying to help and maybe your way is better. It just isn't quite what I was hoping I could achieve.

 

[Ross Ridge]

For example: let's say I'm playing a flight simulator. If I have a stereo headset and I'm using emulated surround sound, how would the driver know when to emulate the sound of the engines behind me or in front of me?

The game uses a 3D audio API like DirectSound3D to position the engines behind you. This then gets mixed by the API into a multi-channel PCM audio stream which is then sent to your sound card. With your existing solution that's the USB soundcard built-in to your G35 headphones, which then uses Dolby Surround to create what sounds like surround sound on your headphones. With a Creative card supporting CMSS-3D it would work similarily except the sound card is in your computer rather than in your headphones.

I have no clue whether CMSS-3D is better or worse than Dolby Headphone, but some sort of technology like this is necessary for you to to hear something that sounds like surround sound on only two speakers. I was finally able find information on the Turtle Beach headphones you metioned, the Ear Force HPA2, and as they actually have 6 speakers could in fact offer "true" surround sound, but I have no idea how effective this actually is.

I'm really not trying to make qualitative judgements here. I'm not saying you don't need EAX or a better surround sound headphones, I'm just trying to point possible different options that would seem to meet the basic requirement of having surround sound headphones with EAX.

I do think you may be barking up the wrong tree with Dolby Digital and DTS though, and I'm not sure what to expect to get from them. These are lossy compression formats, so they're not going to improve the quality of the audio. With Blu-Rays you'd normally have to downmix into these formats from the lossless Dobly TrueHD, DTS HD or maybe uncompressed multi-channel PCM tracks. You shouldn't need a Dolby Digital or DTS decoder, as your Blu-Ray player should already have one. A Dolby Digital or DTS encoder (or just pass-through) would only be useful with headphones connected through a digital SPDIF conenction, not with USB or analogue connections.

 

[DeJuan N. Onley]

If I do go with the suggestion of stereo headphones and rely on the card to do the surround emulation which card/headset combination would you recommend? I'm still hoping to find a better surround solution and keep EAX, but I'm not ruling anything out just yet.

 

[DeJuan N. Onley]

A Dolby Digital or DTS encoder (or just pass-through) would only be useful with headphones connected through a digital SPDIF conenction, not with USB or analogue connections.

Actually that was going to be my next question. I wasn't really planning on the expense for just a headset though. If I wanted lossless sound I figured I would be looking at a separate amp and that seems like overkill for my PC. That's why I didn't even mention lossless audio.

Maybe the next generation of headsets will offer SPDIF connections, but so far I haven't found any.

 

[DeJuan N. Onley]

I was finally able find information on the Turtle Beach headphones you metioned, the Ear Force HPA2, and as they actually have 6 speakers could in fact offer "true" surround sound, but I have no idea how effective this actually is.

From what I've read in reviews, most people love them, but they say they aren't as comfortable as some headsets and they tend to break. I also wonder if the volume would be limited since the drivers would have to be very small.

Update: there are other headsets with multiple speakers in them offering true surround sound like the Tritton AX and LTB MG-AC97. The Turtle Beach model was just the only one that I could find in stock from my usual retailers. I'm starting to think you are right though. There must be a reason these multi-speaker headsets are becoming rare. Either 1) there is a high demand for them which doesn't appear to be the case, or 2) they don't perform as well as a good quality stereo headset.

That in mind, what about this setup? Way more than I had planned to spend but... Astro A40 Audio system
plus Auzentech X-Fi Bravura. If I do go with this setup would I even need the full Astro A40 system or just the headset since the card already has built-in CMSS 3D? Just curious what would happen if I was using CMSS 3D on the sound card to emulate surround and the amp for the Astro to do the same thing. Probably would be okay if I used the coaxial output on the card (but this is just a guess on my part).

 

[Ross Ridge]

Actually that was going to be my next question. I wasn't really planning on the expense for just a headset though. If I wanted lossless sound I figured I would be looking at a separate amp and that seems like overkill for my PC. That's why I didn't even mention lossless audio.

Well there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to get a lossless audio now. The only fomart your existing headphones support is multi-channel uncompressed PCM, which is of course lossless. With games you won't be losing any quality. If your Blu-Ray player supports decoding Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD (or your discs have multi-channel PCM tracks) then you should be getting lossless audio from them as well.

I get the impression that biggest problem with the Turtle Beach headphones is that they're just too heavy and bulky to wear comfortably. Convienence factors like these tend to matter much more to consumers than things like audio quality.

As for the Astro A40 Audio System and Auzentech X-Fi Bravura combo I don't think it'll quite do what you want. The Astro's "mixamp" needs a Dolby Digital (through SPDIF) or Dolby ProLogic II (through analogue) signal to generate virtual surround through Dolby Headphone. The Bravura doesn't include Dolby Digital Live support so can't encode these formats on the fly for use with games, or Blu-Ray discs not using Dolby. (It does include DTS Interactive support so can encode DTS on the fly but the mixamp doesn't support this format.)

You can of course use the the Astro A40 headphones without the mixamp with the Auzentech Bravura and its CMSS-3D to get virtual surrond, but you could use any other normal headphones as well.

 

[DeJuan N. Onley]

Ross, thanks for the reply. I did some more research after that last post and came to basically the same conclusion. Auzentech actually makes a lossless sound card, but that seems to be overkill for a headset. Maybe someday the technology will be to where dropping that kind of money is worthwhile. But for now I think you are right that a decent sound card with DDL support is the way to go. I think I will forego the Astro headset, but so long as my card supports DTS and DDL while still maintaining EAX 5.0 support (like the latest X-Fi) I will have the option to upgrade to the next generation of headphones from Astro or a similar company that will hopefully do a better job. Most reviewers do seem to agree that the A40 headset does a great job but the lack of DTS (afaik) seems to make the $250 price tag hard to swallow. A good headset from Razer costs 1/5 that and although I know there are far better ones out there I just am not seeing anything that makes me go "wow." Better to wait a year and spend the big bucks on something that will do everything I want (hopefully). Thanks again for your help. It truly is appreciated.