'Earthshaking' Ways to Fix US Debt

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
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http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/12/news/economy/reducing_defict/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=Sbin

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The debate over how to reduce U.S. debt levels has generated a lot of partisan huffing and puffing in Congress, but no meaningful action.

Enter President Obama's bipartisan fiscal commission, which will hold its first meeting in a few weeks.

The panel's goal is not to erase the deficit -- that would be far too difficult at this point. Rather, the commission will recommend policies that can slow the growth rate of debt to a "sustainable" level. Among other things, that means making sure annual deficits don't grow faster than the economy.

The commission's first task is to figure out what lawmakers can do to bring the annual deficit as a percent of gross domestic product (GDP) down to 3% starting in 2015.

Broadly speaking, Congress has three options: raise taxes, cut spending or do both. None will be pretty.

Indeed, the magnitude of the changes required is "nothing short of earthshaking," Martin Sullivan, contributing editor at Tax Analysts, wrote in Tax Notes.

There are different projections for what the 2015 deficit will be.

Under the White House 2011 budget proposal, the deficit will hit 4.3% of GDP in 2015, according to the Congressional Budget Office. If that pans out, the commission would need to come up with ways to shave the deficit by just over 1 percentage point of GDP.

But there's no guarantee that Congress will pass all of the White House's proposals. Without them, the deficit would be roughly 6% of GDP in 2015, according to estimates from two budget and tax groups.

Since it's not clear yet which of the president's budget proposals will be adopted, the following are examples of the depth of changes needed to reduce the deficit under the second scenario. Of course, if Congress does pass the president's budget, the changes outlined below would not need to be as drastic.

Tax increases alone

If lawmakers opted to reduce the deficit strictly through tax increases, they would need raise more than $500 billion in new revenue, according to a Tax Policy Center study.

And they'd have to hike tax rates by a third to pull it off -- the bottom rate would go from 10% to 13.7%, and the top rate would rise from 35% today to 48%.

If they just wanted to raise the top three rates, they'd have to jack them up by 88%. So, for example, the top rate would rise from 35% to 66%.

To hit the deficit target by only raising rates on the highest-income households would require a far more drastic jump. Rates for individuals making more than $200,000 (or $250,000 for couples) would more than double, with the top rate approaching 77%.

All of these estimates don't account for how those taxpayers would behave when faced with higher taxes. If they did, the rate jumps would need to be even higher, said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center.

Spending cuts alone

Trying to achieve the same deficit reduction without increasing taxes could be done by slashing spending.

But the cuts would be harsh. For instance, discretionary spending would need to be cut by 40%, according to an analysis by Sullivan. Discretionary spending pays for everything except Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and interest on the debt. In other words, it funds most federal government services and support, including defense, education and infrastructure.

Alternatively, lawmakers could just cut mandatory spending on Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security by 25%.

Or they could just cut total spending -- both discretionary and mandatory -- by 13%.

Gale force resistance ahead

Sullivan figures that if the commission were to recommend the tax-and-spending combo special, they would have to raise all federal taxes (i.e., not just income taxes) by 8%, while cutting all spending by 7%.

And that's the most plausible option economically, although politically it isn't likely to be any more feasible than the other options.

Maybe Congress will prove Sullivan and others wrong. If it does, the total accrued public debt -- which excludes the money owed to the Medicare and Social Security trust funds -- would fall somewhere between 70% and 75% of GDP by 2018, according to Sullivan.

That would be an achievement. But it would only be a first step on the road to stabilizing the debt over time. To do that, deficit experts are recommending that lawmakers aim for a much bigger goal: to reduce the public debt to 60% of GDP sometime between 2018 and 2022.

To reach that target requires much farther reaching changes than a tax increase or spending cut within the existing system. It will likely involve tax reform, budget reform and changes to major programs such as Medicare and Social Security.

Of course, that will be many, many times harder than reducing the annual deficit to 3% of GDP.

We all have ideas on how to cut/eliminate the federal government's deficits/debt and things we think should be done. What I want to know, though, is what measures to cut/eliminate debt that you support would actually make it through Congress and get signed by the president?.

Please keep the troll comments to yourself.. it does no one any good and just makes you look like an idiot.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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Modest reduction in Social Security benefits and a small increase in the eligibility age. That alone could save huge amounts of money.

No more wars in Iraq.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/12/news/economy/reducing_defict/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=Sbin



We all have ideas on how to cut/eliminate the federal government's deficits/debt and things we think should be done. What I want to know, though, is what measures to cut/eliminate debt that you support would actually make it through Congress and get signed by the president?.

Please keep the troll comments to yourself.. it does no one any good and just makes you look like an idiot.

Your bolded comment is the key reason why we are fucked. The answer is nothing that could plausibly work would ever get passed by both houses and signed into law, at least not until the problem is much worse and we have no choice and then the pain will be significantly worse.

Hell, I seriously doubt the would pass something as small as decoupling our entitlements to inflation so that they could even try to inflate some of the debt away.

Eventually, the bond market will slap our nuts just like they are doing to Greece right now. We have a lot more stroke than Greece does so we will be able to dig ourselves a much deeper hole before that happens but it is all but inevitable on our current track. Who is going to bail out the USA?
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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Entitlement programs have to be cut. Military spending has to be cut. Discretionary spending has to be cut. Huge retirement and benefits packages for government workers have to be cut. Done.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
Entitlement programs have to be cut. Military spending has to be cut. Discretionary spending has to be cut. Huge retirement and benefits packages for government workers have to be cut. Done.

Would all or most of those cuts actually happen, though? It simply hasn't happened in the past, no matter which party controls Congress or the White House.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
Would all or most of those cuts actually happen, though? It simply hasn't happened in the past, no matter which party controls Congress or the White House.
Substantial military cuts could only come through a radical transformation of party leadership or by massive protest. A big unspoken part of the vetting process of national leaders is their toeing the line on big military spending. You can have the fieriest anti-war rhetoric you want in campaign mode, but the most anti-war candidates magically forget their stances when they take office. A couple fringe people are tolerated in both parties (like Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul), but they never rise very high. They also serve as stooges for the established powers, as they make it easy to deride truly peaceable politicians as "fringe".
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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Modest reduction in Social Security benefits and a small increase in the eligibility age. That alone could save huge amounts of money.

No more wars in Iraq.

We need to save around a trillion a year just to start breaking even. Even worse, if the bond market jacks our rates from the current historical lows by a modest 2% we will see an almost immediate $300 billion a year in additional interest payments. We are on track to spend about $400 billion servicing our debt this year so that would go to $700 billion which is roughly a third of the Federal tax revenue collected in 2009. Keep in mind, that is before we add anymore debt on so those numbers can and will be quite a bit higher if/when it happens at some point in the future.

Its even worse, since we don't have an extra $300B laying around every year that is simply more that we will need to borrow which just makes the problem get worse every year.

We need a lot more than small cuts and ending the wars to get out of this mess.
 
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nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
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Thanks for ignoring my request for no trolling.

I'm not. So since he promised to not raise my taxes, doesn't that mean that they can only make cuts? What cuts should they make? I say scrap social security since its unconstitutional to begin with and leave it up to the states. Let current reitrees draw from it until they die and send people a check for what they have paid into it so far.

Hows that for a cut to fix the deficit?
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
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Sure. :rolleyes:

So since he promised to not raise my taxes, doesn't that mean that they can only make cuts? What cuts should they make? I say scrap social security since its unconstitutional to begin with and leave it up to the states. Let current reitrees draw from it until they die and send people a check for what they have paid into it so far.

Hows that for a cut to fix the deficit?

Ok, so those are your ideas. I know you and everyone else who posts here in ATPN has ideas. I want to know what ideas are out there that will pass Congress and get presidential approval. Do you honestly think scrapping Social Security is going to pass?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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How about a mandatory hold on govt increases in spending until we "grow" our way out of this?

I would love to see our budget cut but that simply wont happen and the unintended consequences on the economy could be worse than the benefit. Instead we need to wean our economy off the govt tit small %'s at a time.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
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Deficit Reduction: 2010 to 2020

-$500 billion: Reduce troop strength in Iraq and Afghanistan to 30k by 2011

-$50 billion
: There is an additional $93 billion over the next 10 years in "international emergency funding". Slash it.

-$1.6 trillion: Repeal 2/3s of the Bush Tax Cuts over the next 3 years --- Set "Estate Tax" on amounts above $3.5 million threshold effective 2010.

-$1 trillion: Stop raiding the trust funds. The 'lock-boxed' funds should be loaned to state and local gov'ts for significant infrastructure improvements --- not operating costs. Interest on the loans fixed at 10-yr bond rate. Principle and interest payments generate future cash flow for the trust funds --- major infrastructure projects pump up tax receipts.

The actual savings would be greater than listed because we will not be paying interest to ourselves for the IOUs. (Net interest over the next 10 years is around $5 trillion so I'll go with a conservative 5% or -$250 billion.)

-$750 billion: Reduce DoD Outlays 10%

-$300 billion: Reduce Non-defense Discretionary spending 5%

-$500 billion: Big Bank/Wall Street Surcharge for TARP

-$1.2 trillion: Cut 'Mandatory' programs/outlays 5%

-$31 billion: 15% reduction in cost of "statistical probability of a major disaster requiring federal assistance for relief and reconstruction."


That's a reduction of around $6.46 trillion.

Debt held by the 'public' in 2020 (guess: $12.25 trillion) would be around 52% of GDP (guess: $23.55 trillion). Federal Debt 'net of financial assets' would be around $10.3 trillion, or around 44% of projected GDP.

'Intergovernmental Debt' would be around $6.7 trillion (primarily due to the $2+ trillion in interest owed on the current IOUs totaling $4.5 trillion).

Around FY2020, the annual interest we pay on our 'IOUs' would roughly equal the annual deficit in the trust funds (as computed today without any proposed changes).



edit: Net interest paid on the Federal Debt is actually around $3.9 trillion over the next 10 years --- 'theoretically' by reducing the level of public debt that we incur we could substantially reduce the net interest from 2015-2025 (assuming we maintain the current schedule of debt maturity - around 5 years).



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nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
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Sure. :rolleyes:



Ok, so those are your ideas. I know you and everyone else who posts here in ATPN has ideas. I want to know what ideas are out there that will pass Congress and get presidential approval. Do you honestly think scrapping Social Security is going to pass?

No, it wont pass as long as Obama is president.

Here is what we need to do:

1) These giant federal welfare programs need to be cut completely. (Social Security, Healthcare), as well as other things scaled back. They are not enumerated constitutional congress powers to authorize and would fix the budget singlehandedly.

2) We need to hurry up and GTFO of Iraq. It's time for them to stand on their own 2 feet.

3) Scale back and/or cut many government agencies. There are wayyyyyyyyyy to many federal beuracracies that are draining this country.


Basically the federal government is 100x more powerful than the constitution was written for it to be, and now we can see the result of it by glancing at our national debt. The solution isnt to tax the American people more, its to cut the fat starting at the top.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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Rather, the commission will recommend policies that can slow the growth rate of debt to a "sustainable" level.
That's funny, it's like I cannot cure your cancer but I can reduce its progression to a sustainable level. Except something that is bad, and is growing, is by definition not sustainable because sustainable insinuates a plateau or continuity, which progression of something bad rejects.

I can tell you when 2012 comes along right or wrong the republicans are going to lambaste Obama because by then we'll almost certainly have new and meaningful taxes, which fly in the face of his "no new taxes" promise in 2008.
Would all or most of those cuts actually happen, though? It simply hasn't happened in the past, no matter which party controls Congress or the White House.
Of course not. In actual fact these discussions about how to resolve the debt crisis for the US are purely academic; nobody actually expects them to be put in place. The problem is in great part that they are long term problems that require immediate action, and as this action is delayed although the problem gets worse it is _always_ a future problem. You can always patch it up even as it gets worse and basically put off the surgery with more medication. And any solution put in place has pain now and during the next election cycle, its benefits further down the road, so the system itself is not structured in a way to encourage immediate pain now for long term gain. This is why the US will face more debt almost interminably and irrevocably and is why all Western nations face the same problem. The system itself encourages it.

Heck, they can't even push the retirement age up properly for social security and even a damn chimp should be able to see that that is an obvious and very fair solution, so what chance is there of anything else?
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
I can tell you when 2012 comes along right or wrong the republicans are going to lambaste Obama because by then we'll almost certainly have new and meaningful taxes, which fly in the face of his "no new taxes" promise in 2008.

I don't know how much traction the GOP could get out of it though. It's not like the RNC is very credible as an advocate of small government. The Republican party needs to finish its self-immolation before it can rise like a phoenix from the ashes.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
No, it wont pass as long as Obama is president.

There's more trolling. It won't pass regardless of who's president. Show me a Republican president who proposed scrapping Social Security.

Here is what we need to do:

1) These giant federal welfare programs need to be cut completely. (Social Security, Healthcare), as well as other things scaled back. They are not enumerated constitutional congress powers to authorize and would fix the budget singlehandedly.

2) We need to hurry up and GTFO of Iraq. It's time for them to stand on their own 2 feet.

3) Scale back and/or cut many government agencies. There are wayyyyyyyyyy to many federal beuracracies that are draining this country.


Basically the federal government is 100x more powerful than the constitution was written for it to be, and now we can see the result of it by glancing at our national debt. The solution isnt to tax the American people more, its to cut the fat starting at the top.

If you think these things are remotely passable, you're living on some other planet.
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
There's more trolling. It won't pass regardless of who's president. Show me a Republican president who proposed scrapping Social Security.



If you think these things are remotely passable, you're living on some other planet.

Then the simple answer is there are no earthshaking ways to fix out budget crisis that will pass congress/president.

The United States is fucked up our asses financially.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
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I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned a hyperinflationary monetary policy. That truly would be earthshaking(-ly stupid).

Honestly, we need to cut some military spending and raise taxes if we are in any way to control the deficit, much less get a handle on the debt.
 

elitejp

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2010
1,080
20
81
The problem isnt congress its us. They promise you what you want to hear and then we vote for them. Anyone going to office wouldnt survive a day telling you that your going to need to get a second job and become fiscally responsible in your own spending and in order to get america back on track we will need to increase taxes and severely lower benefits.

I think social security really needs to be cut back. When it was first introduced I think people were only living a couple years longer in general and so therefore only collected for 1 or 2 years. Now people are living into their 80's with an ever increasing amount of benefits.

The only way for america to become a nation that I think most people would be proud of is for its citizens to stop wanting a handout from the govt to fix their problems.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
8
81
Social Security will need to be cut, and there will have to be a certain amount of rationing in how much is spent on Medicare. Get those two monsters under control and everything else should be much easier to deal with. Also, how about getting the 50% of the country that pays NO income tax to contribute something?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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Let me ask: Does anybody here expect a major reduction in the deficit in the next five years and moreover do you expect a balanced budget?
 

totalnoob

Golden Member
Jul 17, 2009
1,389
1
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Nothing will be cut folks...nada. We are going to print our way out of it like good little Keynesians. Paying for everything with devalued dollars is much more politically palatable than tax increases or spending cuts.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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cut tons of government programs. Government is way too big. It only needed $1t to operate in 1980, now our annual deficit is $1T on top of the $3.5T we take in in revenue every year from taxes. That is the only option. More people need to be employed by the private sector so that we can produce more so that we can trade with eachother more an trade with other countries more. More trade equals more money changing hands, more tax opportunities, and improved standard of living for all those working (because they're buying more).