Dying in Iraq

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
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Another excellent op-ed piece by Bob Herbert of the NY Times.

Dying in Iraq
By BOB HERBERT


Those are good kids that we're sending into the shooting gallery called Iraq, and unless you have the conviction of a Bush or a Rumsfeld or a Bechtel or a Halliburton, you have to be nursing the sick feeling that each death is a tragic waste, and that this conflict is as much of a fool's errand as the war in Vietnam.

Despite the deceit and chronic dissembling of their political leaders in Washington, and the wretched conditions on the ground in Iraq, the young men and women are fighting bravely. So there was Gov. George Pataki earlier this week with the unhappy task of asking for a moment of silence in remembrance of Sgt. Heath McMillin, a 29-year-old National Guardsman from Clifton Springs in upstate New York.

Sergeant McMillin was killed on Sunday when his unit was attacked while on patrol south of Baghdad.

Over the weekend The New York Times had an article about the close-knit family of Cpl. Travis J. Bradach-Nall, a 21-year-old marine from Portland, Ore., who was killed on July 1 while clearing mines in south-central Iraq. The corporal loved tattoos, and his favorite movie was "Ghostbusters." The article was accompanied by a photo showing his brother and three cousins with memorial "Ghostbusters" tattoos.

Why are these kids dying?

The United States was attacked on Sept. 11, 2001. But instead of using all the means available to hunt down and destroy Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda, the Bush administration became obsessed with the ouster of Saddam Hussein and the takeover of Iraq.

That is a very peculiar ordering of priorities.

The federal government issued public warnings this week after being alerted to potential new terror attacks against Americans by Al Qaeda, including the possibility of airline hijackings in the U.S. or overseas. President Bush said yesterday, "We're talking to foreign governments and foreign airlines to indicate to them the reality of the threat."

But even as the president was speaking, word was coming out that the Transportation Security Administration is trying to cut back its air marshals program to save money. The war in Iraq is costing scores of billions of dollars a month, and the president's tax cuts have grown so large they're casting shadows over generations to come. But we can't afford to fully fund a program to protect American airline passengers.

"When we are faced with more priorities than we have funding to support, we have to go through a process of trying to address the most urgent needs," said a spokesman for the security administration.

The credibility of the Bush administration is approaching meltdown. The White House won't level with the American people on the cost of the war, or the number of troops that are really needed, or the amount of taxpayer money that is being funneled to the politically connected corporations that have been given carte blanche for the reconstruction.

While the Bush crowd was happy to let the public believe that Saddam Hussein was somehow connected to the Sept. 11 attacks, it won't come clean about the real links between the Saudis and Al Qaeda. And you won't hear from the administration that the phantom weapons of mass destruction were never the real reason for the war, but merely the pretext. The real goals were to establish a military foothold in the region, remake the Middle East and capture control of Iraq's fabulous oil reserves.

Right now there is no viable plan for securing the peace in Iraq, and no exit strategy. There is no real plan for demolishing Al Qaeda and the genuine threat it poses to the security of all Americans. (Similarly, at home, there is no plan to get the economy moving and the millions of unemployed Americans back to work.)

Iraq is not Vietnam, where more than 58,000 Americans were killed. But it is like Vietnam in that deceptive leaders have maneuvered the country into a tragic situation that I do not believe Americans will support over time.

For the Bushes and the Rumsfelds, this is a grand imperial adventure, with press-conference posturing and wonderful photo-ops, like the president's "Top Gun" moment on the deck of the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln.

For the youngsters condemned to the shooting gallery, it's a fearful exercise in survival in a conflict that has never been adequately explained.

 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Another excellent op-ed piece by Bob Herbert of the NY Times.

Dying in Iraq
By BOB HERBERT
[/i]


Come on, you can tell me....we really wrote that nonsense?

Obviously the lack of a cogent reply doesn't stop some from posting anyway.

 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
0
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Another excellent op-ed piece by Bob Herbert of the NY Times.

Dying in Iraq
By BOB HERBERT
[/i]


Come on, you can tell me....we really wrote that nonsense?

Obviously the lack of a cogent reply doesn't stop some from posting anyway.


Clearly, you are out of the loop...to cite the NYT is like citing every paper in America; that's where they cut and paste their propaganda from, smartass.

 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Another excellent op-ed piece by Bob Herbert of the NY Times.

Dying in Iraq
By BOB HERBERT
[/i]


Come on, you can tell me....we really wrote that nonsense?

Obviously the lack of a cogent reply doesn't stop some from posting anyway.


Clearly, you are out of the loop...to cite the NYT is like citing every paper in America; that's where they cut and paste their propaganda from, smartass.


I'd like to take this opportunity to remind you of the forum rule against personal attacks. Perhaps with 74 posts you didn't have time to read the forum rules. Why don't you take some time to gather your thoughts, both of them, and also read the forum rules. :)
 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
0
Originally posted by: BOBDN


I'd like to take this opportunity to remind you of the forum rule against personal attacks. Perhaps with 74 posts you didn't have time to read the forum rules. Why don't you take some time to gather your thoughts, both of them, and also read the forum rules. :)




I will do that...but please stop attacking me and my one thought; and I bet you guess what that one thought is.



 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Another excellent op-ed piece by Bob Herbert of the NY Times.

Dying in Iraq
By BOB HERBERT
[/i]


Come on, you can tell me....we really wrote that nonsense?

Obviously the lack of a cogent reply doesn't stop some from posting anyway.


Clearly, you are out of the loop...to cite the NYT is like citing every paper in America; that's where they cut and paste their propaganda from, smartass.
Better a smartass than a dumb s***. Nobody cares. The Times admitted their mistake and fixed it. That's more than the Dubya administration.

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,796
6,354
126
Yup, let Al Queda survive, go after the Windmill Hussein. Great plan towards security!
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Yup, let Al Queda survive, go after the Windmill Hussein. Great plan towards security!


WHILE CUTTING FUNDING FOR AIRPORT SECURITY!
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,796
6,354
126
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: sandorski
Yup, let Al Queda survive, go after the Windmill Hussein. Great plan towards security!


WHILE CUTTING FUNDING FOR AIRPORT SECURITY!

hehe, that too! Bush is a liar(deceiver) and fool, great combo fit for Re-election.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: sandorski
Yup, let Al Queda survive, go after the Windmill Hussein. Great plan towards security!


WHILE CUTTING FUNDING FOR AIRPORT SECURITY!

hehe, that too! Bush is a liar(deceiver) and fool, great combo fit for Re-election.


Only in America. Anywhere else Bush would have to stage a coup.

Oh, that's right. He already did.

That's OK. These morons will still vote for him in 2004. :disgust:
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Back on subject.

Why don't some of the right wind radicals on the forum address the questions raised by the Op-Ed piece by Bob Herbert? Instead of making l00n!e remarks?

Indefensible?


Dying in Iraq
By BOB HERBERT


Those are good kids that we're sending into the shooting gallery called Iraq, and unless you have the conviction of a Bush or a Rumsfeld or a Bechtel or a Halliburton, you have to be nursing the sick feeling that each death is a tragic waste, and that this conflict is as much of a fool's errand as the war in Vietnam.

Despite the deceit and chronic dissembling of their political leaders in Washington, and the wretched conditions on the ground in Iraq, the young men and women are fighting bravely. So there was Gov. George Pataki earlier this week with the unhappy task of asking for a moment of silence in remembrance of Sgt. Heath McMillin, a 29-year-old National Guardsman from Clifton Springs in upstate New York.

Sergeant McMillin was killed on Sunday when his unit was attacked while on patrol south of Baghdad.

Over the weekend The New York Times had an article about the close-knit family of Cpl. Travis J. Bradach-Nall, a 21-year-old marine from Portland, Ore., who was killed on July 1 while clearing mines in south-central Iraq. The corporal loved tattoos, and his favorite movie was "Ghostbusters." The article was accompanied by a photo showing his brother and three cousins with memorial "Ghostbusters" tattoos.

Why are these kids dying?

The United States was attacked on Sept. 11, 2001. But instead of using all the means available to hunt down and destroy Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda, the Bush administration became obsessed with the ouster of Saddam Hussein and the takeover of Iraq.

That is a very peculiar ordering of priorities.

The federal government issued public warnings this week after being alerted to potential new terror attacks against Americans by Al Qaeda, including the possibility of airline hijackings in the U.S. or overseas. President Bush said yesterday, "We're talking to foreign governments and foreign airlines to indicate to them the reality of the threat."

But even as the president was speaking, word was coming out that the Transportation Security Administration is trying to cut back its air marshals program to save money. The war in Iraq is costing scores of billions of dollars a month, and the president's tax cuts have grown so large they're casting shadows over generations to come. But we can't afford to fully fund a program to protect American airline passengers.

"When we are faced with more priorities than we have funding to support, we have to go through a process of trying to address the most urgent needs," said a spokesman for the security administration.

The credibility of the Bush administration is approaching meltdown. The White House won't level with the American people on the cost of the war, or the number of troops that are really needed, or the amount of taxpayer money that is being funneled to the politically connected corporations that have been given carte blanche for the reconstruction.

While the Bush crowd was happy to let the public believe that Saddam Hussein was somehow connected to the Sept. 11 attacks, it won't come clean about the real links between the Saudis and Al Qaeda. And you won't hear from the administration that the phantom weapons of mass destruction were never the real reason for the war, but merely the pretext. The real goals were to establish a military foothold in the region, remake the Middle East and capture control of Iraq's fabulous oil reserves.

Right now there is no viable plan for securing the peace in Iraq, and no exit strategy. There is no real plan for demolishing Al Qaeda and the genuine threat it poses to the security of all Americans. (Similarly, at home, there is no plan to get the economy moving and the millions of unemployed Americans back to work.)

Iraq is not Vietnam, where more than 58,000 Americans were killed. But it is like Vietnam in that deceptive leaders have maneuvered the country into a tragic situation that I do not believe Americans will support over time.

For the Bushes and the Rumsfelds, this is a grand imperial adventure, with press-conference posturing and wonderful photo-ops, like the president's "Top Gun" moment on the deck of the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln.

For the youngsters condemned to the shooting gallery, it's a fearful exercise in survival in a conflict that has never been adequately explained."

 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Back on subject.

Why don't some of the right wind radicals on the forum address the questions raised by the Op-Ed piece by Bob Herbert? Instead of making l00n!e remarks?

Because they don't care. They don't care that soldiers are dying (because they knew what they were getting into -- soldiers die all the time). They don't care if we ever find WMDs in Iraq (because they think the ends justify the means). Saddam is out of power and the U.S. controls Iraq. End of story (no justification needed). They don't care that our government systematically painted a picture of an imminently dangerous Iraq that could destroy us with WMDs, was affiliated with Al Qaeda (never mind that none of that was substantiated).

None of that matters, because the people in this forum who believed the president, who have fallen right in line; wanted this war just as much as Bush, Cheney, Wolfie and Rummy did. After 9/11, they wanted to show the rest of the world that we were still tough, that our military was still the best. So like a kid on the playground who gets stomped, we had to get up, dust ourselves off, and kick the sh*t out of someone, anyone, to prove how tough we were. That someone was Iraq.
 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
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Originally posted by: BOBDN
Back on subject.

Why don't some of the right wind radicals on the forum address the questions raised by the Op-Ed piece by Bob Herbert? Instead of making l00n!e remarks?

Indefensible?


Dying in Iraq
By BOB HERBERT


Those are good kids that we're sending into the shooting gallery called Iraq,


Well, since you asked, I am unable to read that NYT trash, Scoop. I keep reading the first sentence and see that the remaining drivel will be nothing but emotionally loaded, fallacious rhetoric. "Those good kids...shooting gallery..." This is classic 'cut and paste' one-sided NYT trash. Why not also talk about "those good kids" in Iraq who had to sit and witness their mothers being raped and their father being brutally beating for speaking out against the government like you do. Why not talk about the "those good kids" who were gassed to the North. Why not talk about "those good kids" who never had an opportunity to develop and to peruse their dreams, but instead, were forced to defend a brutal dictator.

Sir, I really like that you staunchly support your ideologies. Are you in the D.C. area? I would love to continue this debate over a carbonated malt beverage sometime...but already, I am sick of debating this issue with children who haven't a clue. You are, though, "a good kid," as your 'cut and paste' journalism purports.


 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Back on subject.

Why don't some of the right wind radicals on the forum address the questions raised by the Op-Ed piece by Bob Herbert? Instead of making l00n!e remarks?

Indefensible?


Dying in Iraq
By BOB HERBERT


Those are good kids that we're sending into the shooting gallery called Iraq,


Well, since you asked, I am unable to read that NYT trash, Scoop. I keep reading the first sentence and see that the remaining drivel will be nothing but emotionally loaded, fallacious rhetoric. "Those good kids...shooting gallery..." This is classic 'cut and paste' one-sided NYT trash. Why not also talk about "those good kids" in Iraq who had to sit and witness their mothers being raped and their father being brutally beating for speaking out against the government like you do. Why not talk about the "those good kids" who were gassed to the North. Why not talk about "those good kids" who never had an opportunity to develop and to peruse their dreams, but instead, were forced to defend a brutal dictator.

Sir, I really like that you staunchly support your ideologies. Are you in the D.C. area? I would love to continue this debate over a carbonated malt beverage sometime...but already, I am sick of debating this issue with children who haven't a clue. You are, though, "a good kid," as your 'cut and paste' journalism purports.

Well there's no use arguing with someone who won't even consider an opposing opinion.

Deal Monkey, this is proof of what you said. We have somehow bred a nation of Stepford people. They just fall in line and do as they're told. They believe whatever they are told to believe.

Shame, this passes for freedom.


 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
Deal Monkey, this is proof of what you said. We have somehow bred a nation of Stepford people. They just fall in line and do as they're told. They believe whatever they are told to believe.

Funny, it sounds like you just described yourself.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: Corn
Deal Monkey, this is proof of what you said. We have somehow bred a nation of Stepford people. They just fall in line and do as they're told. They believe whatever they are told to believe.

Funny, it sounds like you just described yourself.


Another brilliant reply. When you can't argue the facts dazzle them with Bullsh!+

Just like Bush. Only he isn't bright enough to dazzle. He just sort of mumbles his way through. Little wonder you support him Corn.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: Corn
Deal Monkey, this is proof of what you said. We have somehow bred a nation of Stepford people. They just fall in line and do as they're told. They believe whatever they are told to believe.

Funny, it sounds like you just described yourself.

Why not reply to the article? Unable to? Indefensible?

Why are we in Iraq? Where is the WMD? Is it OK for Bush to lie? It wasn't OK for Clinton.

Are you willing to be a hypocrit for Bush? You already answered that one but I'd like to hear you say it.

Come on Corn. Show how much you love Bush. Defend him against the charges above. Instead of ducking the issues.
 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
0
Originally posted by: Corn
Deal Monkey, this is proof of what you said. We have somehow bred a nation of Stepford people. They just fall in line and do as they're told. They believe whatever they are told to believe.

Funny, it sounds like you just described yourself.

Some people believe everything they read in the New York Times, sir...glad I am not the only one who sees double-standards around here.

 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
Originally posted by: Corn
Deal Monkey, this is proof of what you said. We have somehow bred a nation of Stepford people. They just fall in line and do as they're told. They believe whatever they are told to believe.

Funny, it sounds like you just described yourself.

Some people believe everything they read in the New York Times, sir...glad I am not the only one who sees double-standards around here.

And others believe everything the hear from Bush.

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."
United Nations Address
September 12, 2002
"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."
"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."
Radio Address
October 5, 2002
"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."
"We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."
"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."
"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."
Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
October 7, 2002
"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."
State of the Union Address
January 28, 2003
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
Address to the Nation
March 17, 2003

 
Jan 12, 2003
3,498
0
0
You must want to work for the New York Times, given the number of times you 'cut and paste' stuff written by others. How many times is this, ten, twenty times you posted the quotes in the last half hour?

As Emerson once said, "I don't like quotes; tell me what you know."

 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
Another brilliant reply. When you can't argue the facts dazzle them with Bullsh!+

Ironic that you would describe my post as "Bullsh!+" since it was really just the same thing that you posted.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
Come on Corn. Show how much you love Bush. Defend him against the charges above. Instead of ducking the issues.

Since you Bush hating morons have been unable to pigeon hole me into your simpleminded square peg, you now beg me for it? LOL, how pathetic is that?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,796
6,354
126
Originally posted by: Corn
Come on Corn. Show how much you love Bush. Defend him against the charges above. Instead of ducking the issues.

Since you Bush hating morons have been unable to pigeon hole me into your simpleminded square peg, you now beg me for it? LOL, how pathetic is that?

That's the "defence of Bush"? Brilliant!