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Dutch government says "Smoke 'em if you got 'em"

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Yahoo
(excerpts)
AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The Netherlands Monday became the world's first country to make cannabis available as a prescription drug in pharmacies to treat cancer, HIV (news - web sites) and multiple sclerosis patients, the Health Ministry said.

Critics argue that it has not passed sufficient scientific scrutiny at a time when researchers are trying to determine if it confers the medical benefits many users claim. Some doctors say it increases the risk of depression and schizophrenia. ($1=.9145 Euro).
MJ does have medicinal properties. Chronic use does increase the risk for depression . . . granted so does alcohol which has ZERO proven medicinal properties to date . . . with the exception of alcohol withdrawal therapy. In the old days, physicians used to taper alcoholics with alcohol . . . straight from the hospital pharmacy. Using MJ once can precipitate a psychotic episode in susceptible people which is likely less than 1% of the population.

 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
Waiting for the posters who are going to predict doom and gloom with all the unregulated potheads running around...
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
There is a study being conducted currently in England testing the efficacy of MJ for pain relief.

IMO it's much better than the narcotics being prescribed today. No addiction, no withdrawal.

The USA is falling behind the rest of the world on medicinal use of MJ because, IMO, our own Taliban, led by Ayatollah Asscroft, is forcing their twisted morality on everyone.

If ever there were people who could benefit from a few hits it's the people who make up the Bush administration. They should take a cue from their leader's early days and smoke a few doobies. Lighten up. Mellow out. Get rid of some of that aggression.

If they did maybe they wouldn't be in the mess they're in in Iraq now. :D
 

PunDogg

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2002
4,529
1
0
well i guess at least someone is ahead of the times, the US is for sure backa$$wards

Dogg
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
The whole problem is that there are serious side effects that can result from using it as medication. I'm not talking about headache or anything like that. Depression and schizophrenia are just 2 of the side effects and those 2 are pretty serious because they can have a lasting effect on the brain. If a new drug were just developed that had the side effects of M, it would not be released onto the market. THAT is why it's not legal. Yes, it can be beneficial, but it has many side effects. That is the real issue. It would be like releasing an HIV drug that cures HIV, but it also destroys your liver (I'm making this up). That would not be released even though it cures HIV. YOU might think it's worth the risk, but that doesn't mean that it should be legal to sell.
M would mainly be used as a pain killer (as far as I know), so IMO, brain damage is too severe a risk. If you had a major issue and needed M, I would guess that you would need to take it for at least 2 months (correct me if I'm wrong), and let's say that after all is said and done, 5% of those people who used it developed some sort of mental problems (chronic depression, schizophrenia, etc...), that would be unacceptable. I heard of some drugs that failed and were banned because 3 people out of a couple hundred got sick after using them.

BTW: This is not a flame or rant. Treat my oppinions as oppinions and with respect. I took the time to write a post that didn't flame or insult anyone. I expect the same in return.
 

Pepsei

Lifer
Dec 14, 2001
12,895
1
0
Originally posted by: XZeroII
The whole problem is that there are serious side effects that can result from using it as medication. I'm not talking about headache or anything like that. Depression and schizophrenia are just 2 of the side effects and those 2 are pretty serious because they can have a lasting effect on the brain. If a new drug were just developed that had the side effects of M, it would not be released onto the market. THAT is why it's not legal. Yes, it can be beneficial, but it has many side effects. That is the real issue. It would be like releasing an HIV drug that cures HIV, but it also destroys your liver (I'm making this up). That would not be released even though it cures HIV. YOU might think it's worth the risk, but that doesn't mean that it should be legal to sell.
M would mainly be used as a pain killer (as far as I know), so IMO, brain damage is too severe a risk. If you had a major issue and needed M, I would guess that you would need to take it for at least 2 months (correct me if I'm wrong), and let's say that after all is said and done, 5% of those people who used it developed some sort of mental problems (chronic depression, schizophrenia, etc...), that would be unacceptable. I heard of some drugs that failed and were banned because 3 people out of a couple hundred got sick after using them.

BTW: This is not a flame or rant. Treat my oppinions as oppinions and with respect. I took the time to write a post that didn't flame or insult anyone. I expect the same in return.

We have to look at it this way... does the benefits outweight the side effects?

I know a couple people who are potheads and sadly, they're not doing very well financially and emotionally. But did their pot habits lead to their life style or their life style lead to their habit? I don't know.

I also know a few people who are addicated to legal painkiller. So I don't know what's worse.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: XZeroII
The whole problem is that there are serious side effects that can result from using it as medication. I'm not talking about headache or anything like that. Depression and schizophrenia are just 2 of the side effects and those 2 are pretty serious because they can have a lasting effect on the brain. If a new drug were just developed that had the side effects of M, it would not be released onto the market. THAT is why it's not legal. Yes, it can be beneficial, but it has many side effects. That is the real issue. It would be like releasing an HIV drug that cures HIV, but it also destroys your liver (I'm making this up). That would not be released even though it cures HIV. YOU might think it's worth the risk, but that doesn't mean that it should be legal to sell.
M would mainly be used as a pain killer (as far as I know), so IMO, brain damage is too severe a risk. If you had a major issue and needed M, I would guess that you would need to take it for at least 2 months (correct me if I'm wrong), and let's say that after all is said and done, 5% of those people who used it developed some sort of mental problems (chronic depression, schizophrenia, etc...), that would be unacceptable. I heard of some drugs that failed and were banned because 3 people out of a couple hundred got sick after using them.

BTW: This is not a flame or rant. Treat my oppinions as oppinions and with respect. I took the time to write a post that didn't flame or insult anyone. I expect the same in return.
I am not aware of any studies or long term testing which prove MJ has any of the side effects you mention.

I know people who use it for long term pain relief after having very bad experiences with the narcotics prescribed by their physicians. I know people who had migraines every 3 to 4 weeks. With continued use the migraines all but disappeared. End use the migraines reappeared. If you are familiar with any of the migraine medications on the market today you know they have some potentially very nasty side effects.

IMO MJ is not illegal in the US because of unproven side effects. It's illegal because back in the 30's when MJ laws were invented there was a beaurocrat, Harry J. Anslinger, who wanted to increase power in his office so he proposed the MJ Tax Stamp Act modeled after the ATF's gun laws which required a tax stamp to purchase a "Tommy Gun" - a tax stamp which the government required for purchase but never created. Thus it was illegal to own a Tommy Gun because you couldn't get the required government tax stamp because the government never created the tax stamp you needed for purchase. Convoluted logic indeed. Anslinger used the same tactic on MJ purchase.

Anslinger also caved in to southwestern states who wanted the federal government to take over MJ laws which previously were the purview of states (most of which had no laws restricting MJ, it grew like a weed - hence the nickname - just about everywhere) because the southwest states viewed MJ as a problem but the real problem was their views against Mexicans who made up a significant portion of those state's population and were seen as the main users of MJ.

There was a very good program on Discovery(?) or one of those learning channels a few months ago which went through the history of US drug laws.

I found this link which goes in to some detail. Google it and I'm sure you can find others.

But to say MJ is illegal because of some unproven side effects isn't accurate IMO.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,653
4,258
126
MJ is also the anti-capitalistic drug. It alters consciousness, the carefully constructed one based on millions of TV ads. MJ screws up captalists property, you.

What would happen to our world if people relaxed and got happy. We'd be screwed. Only misery can bring us the abundant life.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,653
4,258
126
Remember: The only acceptable escape is to get drunk and puke on the floor.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: BOBDN
There is a study being conducted currently in England testing the efficacy of MJ for pain relief.

IMO it's much better than the narcotics being prescribed today. No addiction, no withdrawal.

The USA is falling behind the rest of the world on medicinal use of MJ because, IMO, our own Taliban, led by Ayatollah Asscroft, is forcing their twisted morality on everyone.

If ever there were people who could benefit from a few hits it's the people who make up the Bush administration. They should take a cue from their leader's early days and smoke a few doobies. Lighten up. Mellow out. Get rid of some of that aggression.

If they did maybe they wouldn't be in the mess they're in in Iraq now. :D
Negative.

The Controlled Substances Act of 1970 existed way before Ashcroft came to power.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
and that was the work of our own Taliban prior to the reign of Ayatollah Asscroft. ;)
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: BOBDN
There is a study being conducted currently in England testing the efficacy of MJ for pain relief.

IMO it's much better than the narcotics being prescribed today. No addiction, no withdrawal.

The USA is falling behind the rest of the world on medicinal use of MJ because, IMO, our own Taliban, led by Ayatollah Asscroft, is forcing their twisted morality on everyone.

If ever there were people who could benefit from a few hits it's the people who make up the Bush administration. They should take a cue from their leader's early days and smoke a few doobies. Lighten up. Mellow out. Get rid of some of that aggression.

If they did maybe they wouldn't be in the mess they're in in Iraq now. :D
Negative.

The Controlled Substances Act of 1970 existed way before Ashcroft came to power.
Were people looking at using MJ as a medicinal drug in the 70's? It's in current times that use in medicine is being held back, and that has little to do with laws made in the 70's as laws can be changed, and I think BOBDN is saying that Ashcroft is holding back new medicinal options of MJ, not that he started the whole ball rolling.

State governments that want to allow marijuana to be sold in pharmacies have been stymied by the federal government's overriding prohibition of marijuana.
That may be to what BOBDN is referring when he speaks about being held back.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: BOBDN
There is a study being conducted currently in England testing the efficacy of MJ for pain relief.

IMO it's much better than the narcotics being prescribed today. No addiction, no withdrawal.

The USA is falling behind the rest of the world on medicinal use of MJ because, IMO, our own Taliban, led by Ayatollah Asscroft, is forcing their twisted morality on everyone.

If ever there were people who could benefit from a few hits it's the people who make up the Bush administration. They should take a cue from their leader's early days and smoke a few doobies. Lighten up. Mellow out. Get rid of some of that aggression.

If they did maybe they wouldn't be in the mess they're in in Iraq now. :D
Negative.

The Controlled Substances Act of 1970 existed way before Ashcroft came to power.
Under the current administration which chose Asscroft to head Justice medicinal MJ users have been persecuted as never before. Whether or not it's the 1937 or 1970 version of MJ prohibitions Asscroft is taking measures to increase enforcement which are making the lives of people who benefit from medicinal use of MJ more miserable.

Perhaps if Asscroft was forced to live with chronic pain he'd have a different perspective.

Personally I think the self-righteous bastard just enjoys seeing people suffer.

Aspirin is derived from a medicinal plant.
What's he going to do next? Ban aspirin?
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
6
81
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Yahoo
(excerpts)
AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The Netherlands Monday became the world's first country to make cannabis available as a prescription drug in pharmacies to treat cancer, HIV (news - web sites) and multiple sclerosis patients, the Health Ministry said.

Critics argue that it has not passed sufficient scientific scrutiny at a time when researchers are trying to determine if it confers the medical benefits many users claim. Some doctors say it increases the risk of depression and schizophrenia. ($1=.9145 Euro).
MJ does have medicinal properties. Chronic use does increase the risk for depression . . . granted so does alcohol which has ZERO proven medicinal properties to date . . . with the exception of alcohol withdrawal therapy. In the old days, physicians used to taper alcoholics with alcohol . . . straight from the hospital pharmacy. Using MJ once can precipitate a psychotic episode in susceptible people which is likely less than 1% of the population.
Um... alcohol does have proven medicinal properties... if you have a history of heart problems it is reccomended to ha ve 2-3 beers a week to help thin your blood stream a bit.

But I am all for allowing cannabis.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
0
0
I predict doom and gloom with all the unregulated potheads running around.
 

NuclearFusi0n

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2001
7,028
0
0
Originally posted by: datalink7
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Yahoo
(excerpts)
AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The Netherlands Monday became the world's first country to make cannabis available as a prescription drug in pharmacies to treat cancer, HIV (news - web sites) and multiple sclerosis patients, the Health Ministry said.

Critics argue that it has not passed sufficient scientific scrutiny at a time when researchers are trying to determine if it confers the medical benefits many users claim. Some doctors say it increases the risk of depression and schizophrenia. ($1=.9145 Euro).
MJ does have medicinal properties. Chronic use does increase the risk for depression . . . granted so does alcohol which has ZERO proven medicinal properties to date . . . with the exception of alcohol withdrawal therapy. In the old days, physicians used to taper alcoholics with alcohol . . . straight from the hospital pharmacy. Using MJ once can precipitate a psychotic episode in susceptible people which is likely less than 1% of the population.
Um... alcohol does have proven medicinal properties... if you have a history of heart problems it is reccomended to ha ve 2-3 beers a week to help thin your blood stream a bit.

But I am all for allowing cannabis.
Asprin is recommended over alcohol for blood thinning.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Remember: The only acceptable escape is to get drunk and puke on the floor.
:D

Been there, done that Moonbeam. I've hollered "RALPH" more times than I care to remember.

And worst of all afterwards I had to clean up that mess on the floor.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
I wonder if all the "State's Rights" people who want Alabama's state property to be riddled with religious monuments, would also agree that the states have the right to legalize medicinal marijuana. Several states have already done so (California being one of them), however the feds always intervene, often prosecuting extremely sick people who often find MJ is the only relief they have.
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
0
0
Originally posted by: Pepsei
Originally posted by: XZeroII
The whole problem is that there are serious side effects that can result from using it as medication. I'm not talking about headache or anything like that. Depression and schizophrenia are just 2 of the side effects and those 2 are pretty serious because they can have a lasting effect on the brain. If a new drug were just developed that had the side effects of M, it would not be released onto the market. THAT is why it's not legal. Yes, it can be beneficial, but it has many side effects. That is the real issue. It would be like releasing an HIV drug that cures HIV, but it also destroys your liver (I'm making this up). That would not be released even though it cures HIV. YOU might think it's worth the risk, but that doesn't mean that it should be legal to sell.
M would mainly be used as a pain killer (as far as I know), so IMO, brain damage is too severe a risk. If you had a major issue and needed M, I would guess that you would need to take it for at least 2 months (correct me if I'm wrong), and let's say that after all is said and done, 5% of those people who used it developed some sort of mental problems (chronic depression, schizophrenia, etc...), that would be unacceptable. I heard of some drugs that failed and were banned because 3 people out of a couple hundred got sick after using them.

BTW: This is not a flame or rant. Treat my oppinions as oppinions and with respect. I took the time to write a post that didn't flame or insult anyone. I expect the same in return.

We have to look at it this way... does the benefits outweight the side effects?

I know a couple people who are potheads and sadly, they're not doing very well financially and emotionally. But did their pot habits lead to their life style or their life style lead to their habit? I don't know.

I also know a few people who are addicated to legal painkiller. So I don't know what's worse.
You are exactly correct. We have to ask ourselves if the benefits outweigh the side effects (or costs). I can imagine there has been millions of dollars spent on determining that and our current laws seem to reflect the results. We elect politicians (*shudder*) to make these decisions for us. It is up to them to look at the facts and determine what is best. Of course there are always crooked politicians, but saying that the entire reason why M is illegal is because of one guy back in the 30's is crazy. Sure, it may have happened, but since then there have been numerous studies done and lots of research. Lots of new politicians in there and lots of new ideas. It's illegal because the people have accepted it as being illegal and the people (a majority of them) have concluded that it should be illegal.

Let me ask everyone this...if M were legalized, but only in a liquid form to be ingested (as a prescribed painkiller), would you agree that smoking it for pleasure or growing it yourself should still be illegal?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,653
4,258
126
Let me ask everyone this...if M were legalized, but only in a liquid form to be ingested (as a prescribed painkiller), would you agree that smoking it for pleasure or growing it yourself should still be illegal?
------------------
Hell no. I take no drugs but coffee and don't have a dog in this fight, but if people grow and use and infringe on nobody elses rights, the government has no business getting involved.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Um... alcohol does have proven medicinal properties... if you have a history of heart problems it is reccomended to have 2-3 beers a week to help thin your blood stream a bit.
Actually the medical benefits of alcohol are quite tenuous. The epidemiological studies . . . like always . . . are difficult to interpret and typically produce inconsistent results. Best evidence is that moderate drinking 1-2 with meals per day (with study methodology that excludes binging) has few negative consequences and may impart a minor cardiovascular health benefit. Few good physicians would recommend anyone START drinking. The best recommendation is for sensible diet, exercise, weight loss if needed, and proper management of chronic health conditions (hypertension, diabetes, high cholesterol/triglycerides). Molecular studies are getting closer and closer to isolating factors in alcoholic beverages (but NOT the ETOH itself) that have medicinal qualities.

If I took the same money spent on those 1-2 alcoholic beverages and funded a daily aspirin, essential fatty acid, generic ACE-inhibitor, generic statin (cholesterol), and generic beta blocker regimen . . . the rates of morbidity and mortality from heart disease, stroke, and hypertension would ALL decrease dramatically. Drug related morbidity would be a far cry from the morbidity associated with typical use of alcohol.

But I am all for allowing cannabis.
I agree with BOBDN that Ashcroft's DOJ has definitely stepped up the tempo of the morality war against MJ. Clinton's White House was no fan of medical marijuana but at least they focused most of their efforts on retarding research and illicit drug trafficking. Ashcroft's DOJ has been going after cannabis clubs which limits the access to medical marijuana without significantly affecting "street" drug use and the various societal maladies that occupany it.


 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: XZeroII

You are exactly correct. We have to ask ourselves if the benefits outweigh the side effects (or costs). I can imagine there has been millions of dollars spent on determining that and our current laws seem to reflect the results. We elect politicians (*shudder*) to make these decisions for us. It is up to them to look at the facts and determine what is best. Of course there are always crooked politicians, but saying that the entire reason why M is illegal is because of one guy back in the 30's is crazy. Sure, it may have happened, but since then there have been numerous studies done and lots of research. Lots of new politicians in there and lots of new ideas. It's illegal because the people have accepted it as being illegal and the people (a majority of them) have concluded that it should be illegal.

Let me ask everyone this...if M were legalized, but only in a liquid form to be ingested (as a prescribed painkiller), would you agree that smoking it for pleasure or growing it yourself should still be illegal?
So you actually believe politicians look at the facts and determine what's best for us?

Nothing to do with big drug companies contributing millions to politicians?

You can imagine there have been millions of dollars spent on determining that and our current laws seem to reflect the results? Instead of your imagination I'd rather see some facts if you don't mind.

Did you even bother to read this?

Use a search engine. I did here's what I found so far.

Studies have been done and our current laws don't bear out the results.

People haven't accepted MJ is illegal, as a matter of fact most people in the USA think MJ should be decriminalized. It's illegal because people have been brainwashed by the government's campaign against MJ. And yes, it may be crazy, but it was all started by "one guy" in the 30s.

You can get some info here.

You can also see what your current administration's "Drug Czar" is saying here.

You can read a rebuttal to the Drug Czar's claims here.

I agree with Moonbeam. I don't use pot. I know people who do. Good productive hard working family people.

What business is it of yours or Asscroft's or anyone's if they want to use MJ. If you're worried about pot you should be twice as worried about alcohol. Oh, but alcohol has a multi-million dollar lobby in Washington.

And what of the people who are in chronic pain or have glaucoma or any of the other illnesses MJ has been shown to alleviate?

You people crack me up. You criticize foreign governments and religions for their oppression but you can't even recognize the same thing when it happens to you.

You just keep on lapping up the party line. The Ayatollahs would love you.
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
6
81
Originally posted by: NuclearFusi0n
Originally posted by: datalink7
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Yahoo
(excerpts)
AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The Netherlands Monday became the world's first country to make cannabis available as a prescription drug in pharmacies to treat cancer, HIV (news - web sites) and multiple sclerosis patients, the Health Ministry said.

Critics argue that it has not passed sufficient scientific scrutiny at a time when researchers are trying to determine if it confers the medical benefits many users claim. Some doctors say it increases the risk of depression and schizophrenia. ($1=.9145 Euro).
MJ does have medicinal properties. Chronic use does increase the risk for depression . . . granted so does alcohol which has ZERO proven medicinal properties to date . . . with the exception of alcohol withdrawal therapy. In the old days, physicians used to taper alcoholics with alcohol . . . straight from the hospital pharmacy. Using MJ once can precipitate a psychotic episode in susceptible people which is likely less than 1% of the population.
Um... alcohol does have proven medicinal properties... if you have a history of heart problems it is reccomended to ha ve 2-3 beers a week to help thin your blood stream a bit.

But I am all for allowing cannabis.
Asprin is recommended over alcohol for blood thinning.
Yes of course... but that doesn't deny the fact that 2-3 beers a week also helps.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
0
0
Damn. If 2-3 beers a week is good for you, 2-3 beers an hour should be GREAT! ;)
 

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