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Duke Energy Coal ash mess: Ratepayers to foot the bill; Governor (R) won't speak

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,515
3,281
126
NC has only had a Repub governor for about a year.

For the previous 20 yrs they were all Dems.

The Repubs gained control of the legislature only in 2010, it was the first time in over 100 yrs.

So, in your post above you misspelled 'liberal'.

Fern
Nice argument, Fern, and since Greenmam says I'm not like him and can't see the reasoning and rationality of others, being too full of frustration and rage, I am just going to say you won it. I will admit that it's not just conservative brains that can be sucked in by powerful corporations via campaign donations with the result that the partisans wind up voting to fuck themselves.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
My energy prices have only gone up twice; once when the energy was controlled by Enron and ever since these alternative energy companies/options have been popping up. I guess higher prices are just a side benefit of capitalism.
When a market goes from a subsidized and artificially state backed monopolized marketplace to non-subsidized and open market the issue arises that prices move to reflect the distortion and imbalances that were created by the former in the marketplace. Which is why there are almost always price shocks when government or a government backed private monopoly steps out of distorting the marketplace.

Eventually however the trend of a liberated marketplace is an inevitable march toward a price equilibrium to reflect the true costs of consumption and a promotion of more efficient use of resources. Additionally as the number of alternative competitors increase and barriers toward entry are knocked down consumers are the ones who end up benefiting in the long term.

But hey if you want to defend Duke Energy's state backed strangle hold in some twisted and tool like effort to make this into a "My side, versus your side" argument and at the same time discrete the ability to provide alternatives to a hand picked state energy utility monopoly then go right ahead. Big Coal thanks you, and so does the consortium which Duke and PG&E belong too (the ALEC consortium of state utilities) thank you as well because you are going to be on their side when it comes to undermining alternative energy utilities seeking to give consumers choices, some of which are significantly more environmentally friendly.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,515
3,281
126

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,217
8,062
136
When a market goes from a subsidized and artificially state backed monopolized marketplace to non-subsidized and open market the issue arises that prices move to reflect the distortion and imbalances that were created by the former in the marketplace. Which is why there are almost always price shocks when government or a government backed private monopoly steps out of distorting the marketplace.

Eventually however the trend of a liberated marketplace is an inevitable march toward a price equilibrium to reflect the true costs of consumption and a promotion of more efficient use of resources. Additionally as the number of alternative competitors increase and barriers toward entry are knocked down consumers are the ones who end up benefiting in the long term.

But hey if you want to defend Duke Energy's state backed strangle hold in some twisted and tool like effort to make this into a "My side, versus your side" argument and at the same time discrete the ability to provide alternatives to a hand picked state energy utility monopoly then go right ahead. Big Coal thanks you, and so does the consortium which Duke and PG&E belong too (the ALEC consortium of state utilities) thank you as well because you are going to be on their side when it comes to undermining alternative energy utilities seeking to give consumers choices, some of which are significantly more environmentally friendly.

I don't have a side unless you call history, facts, and logic a side. The only time a free market works is when it's dealing with a necessary item or service, the moment the object is needed or required for basic functioning in modern society is when capitalism fails. That's not my opinion, that's history.

The issue here is a corrupt or shady government that failed to do its job. Do you know what the difference is between a corrupt government (I'm talking about the US political setup)? We can vote out corrupt governments and we can do it altogether all at once. Try doing that with a corrupt business.

Btw, a "market shock" that raises prices is not beneficial to the consumer as compared to an artificially low price that's created by government (again, this applies to goods and services that are needed, ie health care, roads, police, military, power, water, and even food).

Your free market idealism was utterly destroyed in the Great Recession, just ask Alan Greenspan;)
 
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WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
Just think of it as a payment correction to what they would have been paying if they had done it right to begin with.
I live in the Duke grid. I agree with that statement 100%. It should have been part of the rate plan all along and now we all have to pay for it.

That said, the gov't has also failed in this instance. The EPA has done nothing to remedy the situation with these coal ash ponds... Or even spent nuclear fuel.

So, the gov't, both state and federal should be on the hook here as well. Spread the pain, not just because of the money, but the chain of responsibility extends all the way to the top.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
179
106
Duke Energy is a state backed monopoly supported by state politicians and political parties just as PG&E is propped up and supported by the dominant political party in CA. Additionally both Duke Energy. PG&E and other state propped up utility monopolies have been strong at work undermining solar power alternatives and pushing mandates and regulations to prevent people from removing themselves off the grid and not paying into even though they are able to sell back their excess energy to these state backed power utility monopolies. In the end your blind belief that the state is keeping safe or the that the electorate is working toward a common good is a false illusion.
duke is not a state energy company although.

corrupt politicians are what supports it not a fullr run state agency.

the whole government is failing although and businesses and corruption are to blame
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
NC has only had a Repub governor for about a year.

For the previous 20 yrs they were all Dems.

The Repubs gained control of the legislature only in 2010, it was the first time in over 100 yrs.

So, in your post above you misspelled 'liberal'.

Fern
LOL +1

Nice argument, Fern, and since Greenmam says I'm not like him and can't see the reasoning and rationality of others, being too full of frustration and rage, I am just going to say you won it. I will admit that it's not just conservative brains that can be sucked in by powerful corporations via campaign donations with the result that the partisans wind up voting to fuck themselves.
+1 for admitting you were wrong.

I live in the Duke grid. I agree with that statement 100%. It should have been part of the rate plan all along and now we all have to pay for it.

That said, the gov't has also failed in this instance. The EPA has done nothing to remedy the situation with these coal ash ponds... Or even spent nuclear fuel.

So, the gov't, both state and federal should be on the hook here as well. Spread the pain, not just because of the money, but the chain of responsibility extends all the way to the top.
Well said. I'll only add that this spill is why we need a strong regulatory, inspection and remediation for things like this which have great potential to do harm. Probably near the same overall cost (perhaps even less, if done reasonably) without the environmental damage.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,206
19,030
136
NC has only had a Repub governor for about a year.

For the previous 20 yrs they were all Dems.

The Repubs gained control of the legislature only in 2010, it was the first time in over 100 yrs.

So, in your post above you misspelled 'liberal'.

Fern
This probably bears reading:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/01/us/coal-ash-spill-reveals-transformation-of-north-carolina-agency.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,515
3,281
126
I wonder if Fern will conclude that Republicans seem to push for the kind of deregulation that leads to these kinds of disasters more than Democrats do? It seems that however bad Democrats may be they aren't as bad as Republicans. That, at least, seems to be what the evidence suggests.
 

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