Drug prices

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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: BarneyFife



Cost lots of money for R and D, for every drig thats a hit there are thousands reseached that go nowhere and they still have to pay millions for each to research.

Do you realize that a lot of drugs have been created with public taxpayer money? I don't want to hear these lame excuses. I've actually wrote a research paper on this topic and you'd crap your pants if you figured out the truth. Unless you choose to ignore it and go on some Steve Forbes capitalist rampage.


LOL:D I had a thread I started...can't find it...where this was all discussed. Bascally I was for socialized medcine but not cripleing an industry with outragous federal price fixing which would never happen anyway with corporate influence... already insurance cos and states like VT maine and oregon are forceing, though collectivism, companies to lower prices in those areas by:

1. Only pay x for a drug...If the company is unwilling to lower the price then its not sold or covered
2. They have panels of qualified physicians to debunk the pharmacutical claims of X drug being the only cure, and instead make a list of alternatives whether generics or other drugs.

 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
Pharma spends a lot more money on advertising than they do on R&D
That's not true. They only spend about half as much on advertising as they do on R&D. But they spend more on general/administrative than they do on R&D. (can you imagine if a baseball team spent more on it's coaches than on all their players combined?)
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Millennium
Simply because the US pays out the nose, so the rest of the world can have cheap prices.

No. It's because the politicans are bought and paid for by the drug industry. Americans get raped with toilet plungers because of those stupid bozos in Washington.

You elected them. I have only been able to vote for 2 years.

People always complain about politicians but either they voted for them or they did not vote at all.

I say if you are unhappy with your elected officials: become active in the political process or STFU!
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Stop comparing life and death medication to deciding which tv set you should buy.
Where do people like you get your whacked ideas? Just because you think something is important means that you think you have the right to steal it? Is that it?
rolleye.gif
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Millennium
Simply because the US pays out the nose, so the rest of the world can have cheap prices.

No. It's because the politicans are bought and paid for by the drug industry. Americans get raped with toilet plungers because of those stupid bozos in Washington.

You elected them. I have only been able to vote for 2 years.

People always complain about politicians but either they voted for them or they did not vote at all.

I say if you are unhappy with your elected officials: become active in the political process or STFU!

Exactly. I feel no sympathy for anyone who doesn't vote in EVERY election. Otherwise how can you really complain and bitch about people who you didn't vote against? I have voted in every election since I turned 18, and will continue to do so.

Barney- Can you say the same?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,879
6,417
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Stop comparing life and death medication to deciding which tv set you should buy.
Where do people like you get your whacked ideas? Just because you think something is important means that you think you have the right to steal it? Is that it?
rolleye.gif

WTF? Steal it? Where do you get your whacked out ideas?
 

HiTechHate

Junior Member
Aug 2, 2003
1
0
0
hmm, how much R&D have you done yourself?

I can tell you from being an active researcher in the field of human proteomics that R&D is by no means a cheap and easy task. You all make it sound like some guy in a white lab coat mixes some chemicals and voila, cure for another disease, lets sell it for tonnes and steal everyones money. As a matter of fact a majority of the profit made from sales is put right back into the R&D, to use an NMR machine for one hour costs more then $1000, reagants can cost more then $900/uL (yes uL, as in 1/1000 of a mL)... To carry out one experiment can take weeks .. the sheer complexity of the human genome and furthermore the human proteome makes it an INCREDIBLY challenging task to isolate and determine what fundamentally is causing the detrimental effect for which a drug must be created. After this tedious and often incredibly long period of time to just determine what proteomically (or genomically) is causing the effect the proteins structure must be elicited. This is another complex process involving many hours on an NMR, or mass spec, and a lot of thought and coffee. Proteins are extremely complex consisting of hundreds to thousands of amino acids, they contain numerous polar regions, are extremely diverse and dynamic, and normally one protein can exist in a number of different 'states' (for lack of a better word). On top of that we are working with incredibly small quantities of these molecules introducing a considerably challenging task of ACCURATELY carrying out this procedure. From here a molecule must be designed .. on paper .. that will inactivate these detrimental proteins etc. Trying to establish a STABLE molecule whos MO structure binds SELECTIVELY to the target protein and then deactivates the protein .. as well as making sure that the molecule wont be metabolized or destroyed through immune response is yet another hurdle to the biochemist and again involves a considerable amount of time on NMR spec/MALDI-TOF etc. So wow we now have a molecule we 'think' will work .. on paper, making it isn't exactly easy either .. a lot of intuitive thought and research must be put in to design the synthesis of this molecule, again no easy task. Finally we have a molecule .. we 'think' will work, we now have to test it .. testing it doesnt mean feeding it to a lab rat and seeing if it dies, a large number of factors must be determined .. uptake time, dosage, metabolic breakdown, antigenicity, storage, adverse affects on other cells, metabolic products, WHETHER IT EVEN WORKS. From here even more time and money is spent trying to scale it up to the human level, FDA approval as i'm sure you already know can take a LONG time, and in that time a lot of money must be spent to ensure the safety and wellbeing of the patients taking this medicine and its effectiveness. I've just used a VERY specific example here to illustrate the issue, normally it is not known that the detrimental effect is being caused by a proteomic or genomic effect, that the problem arises from a toxin released by a bacteria, or a genetic manipulation from a virus, etc. etc. there being hundreds of differnt scenarios. No drug company really makes 'that' much money, it is always an ongoing battle and any profit must be spend on R&D of the next drug .. or else the company will collapse. The reason as has already been stated by someone that drugs are cheaper in Canada is that it is ILLEGAL to distribute the brand named drug to someone if a generic version exists, obviously the generic version will be cheaper because they didnt have to do any work in R&D. The upside to this is that people get their drugs much cheaper, the downside is that the company which is responsible for the creation of this drug is getting little to no sales of this drug once its patent expires (which is not very long actually). To whoever it was that decided to bring Canada into this and start badmouthing Canada, I don't see why you would stir up this thread like that, it was designed to discuss drug costs, not which Country is better ... at any rate if I really felt inclined to I could write a 3000 word essay on all the things that the USA has done to screw itself and other countries up without batting an eye .. but I won't do that because on the same token I have respect for the fact that its a successful country .. and i'm more mature to start ranting Canada Canada Canada (like you seemed to enjoy doing for the USA). The next time you pop a prescription pill try and think about what is actually involved in developing that pill rather then just assuming that you know its some easy task to design a drug.
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Millennium
Simply because the US pays out the nose, so the rest of the world can have cheap prices.

No. It's because the politicans are bought and paid for by the drug industry. Americans get raped with toilet plungers because of those stupid bozos in Washington.

You elected them. I have only been able to vote for 2 years.

People always complain about politicians but either they voted for them or they did not vote at all.

I say if you are unhappy with your elected officials: become active in the political process or STFU!

Exactly. I feel no sympathy for anyone who doesn't vote in EVERY election. Otherwise how can you really complain and bitch about people who you didn't vote against? I have voted in every election since I turned 18, and will continue to do so.

Barney- Can you say the same?

No, I can't say the same. I don't bother to vote. Frankly, it's a waste of time. I'll only vote when they start making lobbying illegal and do away with political donations. I don't want to encourage a corrupt and flawed system.

 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Stop comparing life and death medication to deciding which tv set you should buy.
Where do people like you get your whacked ideas? Just because you think something is important means that you think you have the right to steal it? Is that it?
rolleye.gif


Are you one of those financially poor "capitalists"? You sure sound like one.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Millennium
Simply because the US pays out the nose, so the rest of the world can have cheap prices.

No. It's because the politicans are bought and paid for by the drug industry. Americans get raped with toilet plungers because of those stupid bozos in Washington.

You elected them. I have only been able to vote for 2 years.

People always complain about politicians but either they voted for them or they did not vote at all.

I say if you are unhappy with your elected officials: become active in the political process or STFU!

Exactly. I feel no sympathy for anyone who doesn't vote in EVERY election. Otherwise how can you really complain and bitch about people who you didn't vote against? I have voted in every election since I turned 18, and will continue to do so.

Barney- Can you say the same?

No, I can't say the same. I don't bother to vote. Frankly, it's a waste of time. I'll only vote when they start making lobbying illegal and do away with political donations. I don't want to encourage a corrupt and flawed system.

Then commenting on the system isn't the best thing to be doing. Voting would be a start.
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: Dr Smooth
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Millennium
Simply because the US pays out the nose, so the rest of the world can have cheap prices.

No. It's because the politicans are bought and paid for by the drug industry. Americans get raped with toilet plungers because of those stupid bozos in Washington.

You elected them. I have only been able to vote for 2 years.

People always complain about politicians but either they voted for them or they did not vote at all.

I say if you are unhappy with your elected officials: become active in the political process or STFU!

Exactly. I feel no sympathy for anyone who doesn't vote in EVERY election. Otherwise how can you really complain and bitch about people who you didn't vote against? I have voted in every election since I turned 18, and will continue to do so.

Barney- Can you say the same?

No, I can't say the same. I don't bother to vote. Frankly, it's a waste of time. I'll only vote when they start making lobbying illegal and do away with political donations. I don't want to encourage a corrupt and flawed system.

Then commenting on the system isn't the best thing to be doing. Voting would be a start.

What should I do? Vote? Vote for who? Most Americans don't bother voting because they see it as a flawed system and the only way it can be fixed is by the criminals in Washington. Will they ever fix it? Hell no. They love their little donations from drug companies, unions, oil companies, tobacco companies etc..

 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
The heart of the matter is that Big Pharma spends the MAJORITY of its revenue on activities other than R&D. It is true that direct to consumer advertisement is less than R&D.

But physician promotions/contact far exceeds R&D. A significant component is drug samples dutifully delivered to the office on a weekly basis by a drug rep . . . with nice legs. Big Pharma calculates a street cost for their drugs so the figure for actual "donated" drugs is quite inflated.

The next factor is probably sponsorship of physician education. One of my annual conferences was in SF this past May. Membership has its privileges which range from baubles like pens, laser pointers, and paperweights to DVDs, books, bags, free health screenings, etc. The meals were all privately sponsored . . . lobster and filet mignon were among the decent meals. Back home I know one clinician with a computer AND broadband courtesy of the industry.

If you go to Pfizer's website they currently claim mentation to marketplace term of 15yrs and $800m in development . . . total BS. The FDA throughout the 90s and even moreso since McClellan has greatly reduced the regulatory hurdles for bringing drugs to market. Cinical trials are by far the most expensive element of development for a given drug. Furthermore, the majority of agents today are "me too" formulations with dramatically shortened development periods. Bringing more and sometimes better products to market at a faster pace generally benefits the public and industry . . . with the notable exception of Lotronex, Rotashield, Baycol . . . all recalls in the past 5 years.

The drug companies waste tens of billions each year on extraneous activities yet still command enviable profit margins (thnx to the US market and duplicitous US government). Pfizer swallowed Warner-Lambert, Parke-Davis, and Upjohn-Pharmacia in the last three years. I'm too lazy to search but I would guesstimate that's over $100B . . . fortunately PFE can count on the US taxpayer to guarantee profits for years to come.

Money (profits) can adversely affect the market (reduced competition) and public (stifle product development).
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Stop comparing life and death medication to deciding which tv set you should buy.
Where do people like you get your whacked ideas? Just because you think something is important means that you think you have the right to steal it? Is that it?
rolleye.gif
Are you one of those financially poor "capitalists"? You sure sound like one.
You know what I sould like from a couple of words? :confused:
rolleye.gif


If you want that life and death medication, make it yourself. Or pay the prices demanded by the people who did make it. Anything less is theft. You have no right to lay claim on the inventions and labors of others, regardless of how necessary you might think that is.

btw, while I am by no means "rich," I am long, long ways from poor. But thanks for the ad hominem.