Drone Drone Drone Americans.....

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
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n an extraordinary admission, Attorney General Eric Holder has told Congress that U.S. drone strikes since 2009 have killed four Americans — three of whom were “not specifically targeted.”

For all the effort that the Obama administration has gone to in asserting that its drones only kill the people that the administration intends to kill, Holder wrote in a letter today to Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) that Samir Khan, 16-year-old Abdulrahman Awlaki and Jude Kenan Mohammad were “not specifically targeted by the United States.” The fourth American to die in a drone strike since 2009 was Abdulrahman’s father Anwar Awlaki, a radical propagandist whom the U.S. killed in Yemen in 2011.

The five-page letter, obtained and published by Charlie Savage of The New York Times, does not explain the circumstances that led to the unintentional killings of Khan, Mohammad and the younger Awlaki. Holder does not apologize for the killings, nor explain whether their deaths resulted from errant targeting, mistaken identity or another circumstance.

But after acknowledging that the administration did “not specifically targe[t]” those three Americans, Holder defended killing Americans the administration believes to be members of al-Qaida without due process, a constitutionally questionable proposition.

“It is clear and logical that United States citizenship alone does not make such individuals immune from being targeted,” Holder wrote to Leahy. “Rather, it means the government must take special care and take into account all relevant constitutional considerations, the laws of war, and other laws with respect to U.S. citizens — even those who are leading efforts to kill their fellow, innocent Americans.”

Holder’s criteria are familiar, thanks to a Justice Department “white paper” on targeted killing that leaked in February. To target an American that American must be a “senior operational leader” of al-Qaida “or its associated forces”; capturing him or her must be “not feasible”; the strike would conform to the laws of war; and “a thorough and careful review” inside the executive branch determines that the American is part of an “imminent” attack. Oh, and the drone strike can only be done outside the U.S., Holder emphasizes, in an apparent nod to the concerns of Sen. Rand Paul.

Only the concept of “imminence” here is far broader than its conventional definition. Nor does Holder explain what undergirds the determination that an American cannot be captured; the relative ease of drone strikes creates a structural disincentive for a policymaker to opt for a risky capture operation.

Americans are a tiny fraction of the people killed by U.S. drone strikes. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) recently estimated that 4700 people have died from drone-launched missiles. An unknown percentage of those casualties are people whose identities are not known to the government but who are presumed to be terrorists based on their patterns of travel and other behavior.

It’s worth noting that this is not an exhaustive list of Americans killed by U.S. drone strikes. Kamal Derwish of Lackawanna, NY was killed in a November 2002 missile strike launched from a Predator drone, one of the first such cases. It’s unclear why Holder did not list American deaths from pre-2009 strikes in his tally.

Khan was the editor of Inspire, the English-language webzine of al-Qaida’s Yemen offshoot. He was killed in the September 2011 strike that killed Anwar Awlaki. Abdulrahman, a teenager born in Denver, was killed in Yemen shortly thereafter, alongside his 17-year old cousin.

Jude Kenan Mohamad travelled to Pakistan from North Carolina in 2008, allegedly to become a jihadi, and never returned. He was arrested in 2009 for trying to enter Pakistan’s tribal regions without the proper paperwork. But he skipped out on his court date, and vanished. Friends feared him dead after a November, 2011 drone strike. But his status — alive or dead — was never officially confirmed until now. Mohamad’s FBI wanted poster does not list his death. (“The FBI won’t declare a person dead until there’s physical evidence, DNA evidence,” a law-enforcement source explains to Danger Room.) Nor have outside terrorist trackers like the Long War Journal counted Mohamad among the droned. (“I don’t track him as being killed,” says Bill Roggio, the Journal’s editor.)

Buried within the letter is another startling admission from Holder. This week, Holder writes, Obama approved “a document that institutionalizes the Administration’s exacting standards and processes for reviewing and approving operations to capture or use lethal force against terrorist targets outside the United States and areas of active hostilities.” That would be the infamous Disposition Matrix, the bureaucratic codification of the administration’s so-called targeted killing program. Congress will now be “notified and briefed” on the document, so expect something resembling it to leak to the press.

It’s fitting that Obama has approved the disposition matrix and Holder has acknowledged the drone killings of Americans this week. Tomorrow, Obama will give a speech about the future course of the war on terrorism. It remains to be seen if he will acknowledge accidentally killing three American citizens without due process — one of whom was a teenager.


Because
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,416
9,610
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Transparency? Says who? and since when?
transparency-obama.jpg
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
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Ah, but a politician's best phrase to justify killing innocents: collateral damage.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
This administration is very transparent, when compared with the last administration.
Water-boarding, rendition, false intelligence used to go to war, paid hacks to go on tv news shows, etc, etc.....
I have no problem with drone strikes. Don't want to be hit with a drone strike, don't hang around with terrorists.
Drone strikes are not equivalent to a full-scale war, and don't produce tens of thousands of innocent victims.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,221
2,461
136
But it's a free country with transparency.....

If the story is credible this is horrible and a step way out of bounds basically murdering American citizens in not such a surgical manner as described.

http://www.wired.com/2013/05/4-americans-drone/

You are making a leap without enough information. We don't the circumstance on how the non targeted Americans where killed in drone strikes.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76

Your concern for American citizens is touching, including the teenage son of the guy preaching death to America. I'm sure he would have turned out to be a peaceful, productive American citizen.
Where was all of your concern for Americans when Bush launched his war against Iraq, a country that never attacked us, a war that killed thousands of Americans for no reason?
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
Your concern for American citizens is touching, including the teenage son of the guy preaching death to America. I'm sure he would have turned out to be a peaceful, productive American citizen.
Where was all of your concern for Americans when Bush launched his war against Iraq, a country that never attacked us, a war that killed thousands of Americans for no reason?

You are insane.

And a moron.

You should not breed.
 

Angry Irishman

Golden Member
Jan 25, 2010
1,883
1
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You are making a leap without enough information. We don't the circumstance on how the non targeted Americans where killed in drone strikes.

The circumstances are using drones with Hellfire missiles to kill Americans....simple.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,221
2,461
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The circumstances are using drones with Hellfire missiles to kill Americans....simple.

No it isn't that simple. If a US citizen in Yemen and I am travelling in a vehicle with a known senior level terrorist and the vehicle gets destroyed by a Hellfire and I am killed. Sorry, I am not going to get worked up about that.

However if a US citizen in Pakistan and travelling with my family with no known terrorist ties and a US drone strike destroys the vehicle and kills the US citizen then I have concerns.

Do you see the difference????? Make sure you read carefully.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
No it isn't that simple. If a US citizen in Yemen and I am travelling in a vehicle with a known senior level terrorist and the vehicle gets destroyed by a Hellfire and I am killed. Sorry, I am not going to get worked up about that.

However if a US citizen in Pakistan and travelling with my family with no known terrorist ties and a US drone strike destroys the vehicle and kills the US citizen then I have concerns.

Do you see the difference????? Make sure you read carefully.

Do you remember why Clinton didn't kill Bin Laden with the air strike when he had the chance?
 

Angry Irishman

Golden Member
Jan 25, 2010
1,883
1
81
No it isn't that simple. If a US citizen in Yemen and I am travelling in a vehicle with a known senior level terrorist and the vehicle gets destroyed by a Hellfire and I am killed. Sorry, I am not going to get worked up about that.

However if a US citizen in Pakistan and travelling with my family with no known terrorist ties and a US drone strike destroys the vehicle and kills the US citizen then I have concerns.

Do you see the difference????? Make sure you read carefully.

Oh I get it..... It' called killing a US citizen without due process or a trial. In this case collateral deaths of more than planned for took place.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,221
2,461
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Do you remember why Clinton didn't kill Bin Laden with the air strike when he had the chance?

He said he would have had to level a entire town of 300 people. I doubt even Reagan would have destroyed a entire town to get one guy.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,221
2,461
136
Oh I get it..... It' called killing a US citizen without due process or a trial. In this case collateral deaths of more than planned for took place.

So are we talking about the deliberating killing of US citizens by drone strikes or the accidental killing of US citizens of drone strikes?
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
29,460
29,869
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New rules of engagement per the OP. (Or at least based on the OP's logic to this point)

Before all strikes on terrorist targets everyone in the target area will be asked to produce their passport or some other identifying document to ensure no US citizens are present.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
14
61
He said he would have had to level a entire town of 300 people. I doubt even Reagan would have destroyed a entire town to get one guy.

Relax man, I'm not arguing with you.

He was afraid of collateral damage. He couldn't be certain that no innocent people would be killed with the bombs. Whether it was 1 person or 400 at risk is still up for debate. Regardless, he made his call to protect innocent lives.

The point is that blowing up vehicles in a non war zone should probably only be done after you know for sure you aren't killing people you don't mean to.
 

Nograts

Platinum Member
Dec 1, 2014
2,534
3
0
People bitch so much about this crap. I'll tell you what (targets of smart bombs) you're fucking lucky it's not ww2 and we're not carpet bombing your city. People gonna die. Wa.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,221
2,461
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Relax man, I'm not arguing with you.

He was afraid of collateral damage. He couldn't be certain that no innocent people would be killed with the bombs. Whether it was 1 person or 400 at risk is still up for debate. Regardless, he made his call to protect innocent lives.

The point is that blowing up vehicles in a non war zone should probably only be done after you know for sure you aren't killing people you don't mean to.

Sorry if I was coming across too strong. :eek:

I think the assumption is at some point if you are with a known terrorist and you get killed by a drone strike on house/vehicle/tent whatever then tough s$%t. However that is a much bigger leap to say, we are not sure where he is but we know he is in this village, lets just level the entire village. I also assume during Clinton's presidency that we didn't have the level of sophisticated armed drones we have now. It was probably call in a tomahawk strike and the strike planners were like, the entire town will need to be leveled. It isn't like now where we can pin-point down to a specific vehicle and put a Hellfire into that specific car.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,221
2,461
136
Cmon...really?

So if we have a terrorist overseas that is also a US citizen. He is up to no good and killing people, locals and plotting actively to kill US citizens.

You have a shot to kill him with a drone strike that will just kill him and his immediate terrorist companions. You cannot get a SF team into the area with a high degree chance of success to extract him.

A- Do you kill the US citizen with a drone strike?

B- Hope he surrenders so you can put him on trial in US court?