DRM in Vista

[acole1]

I have been looking around the Google trying to find what exactly is new in the DRM realm comming in Vista. Everyone talks about the many horrible restrictions that Vista will implement, but I have yet to learn what exactly those restrictions are.

The only one that I have seen addressed is the restriction rumor that Vista will require "true HD" content to be played on DRM monitors. Is this all? Surely there is more to all this complaining. Does anyone have any further details?

Thanks!

 

[Matthias99]

Vista will support content protected by HDCP (ie, Blu-Ray/HD-DVD movies), but the restrictions there are imposed by HDCP, not by Microsoft or Vista itself. You can only watch such content at full resolution on an HDCP-compliant monitor or HDTV.

Vista is also supposed to support Cablecard-compliant tuners for HD cable -- presumably with some DRM restrictions. There has been essentially no information released about this.

 

[Robor]

Thank you for bolding that important point

DRM /= Microsoft They are only supporting it just like everyone else is going to have to do to play HDCP protected content.

Personally I think it's a pile of crap. I spent $2800 on a Sony LCD HDTV and $500 on a Dell 2001FP LCD monitor. AFAIK neither are HDCP compliant. All I can say is I *HOPE* there is a hack to get around it. I don't mind paying for HD content but if the TV/Movie industry thinks I'm going to replace my TV and monitor they're high!

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Vista will support content protected by HDCP (ie, Blu-Ray/HD-DVD movies), but the restrictions there are imposed by HDCP, not by Microsoft or Vista itself. You can only watch such content at full resolution on an HDCP-compliant monitor or HDTV.

Vista is also supposed to support Cablecard-compliant tuners for HD cable -- presumably with some DRM restrictions. There has been essentially no information released about this.

Some information on Cablecard. I didn't read it, but ars is usually pretty good.

 

[stash]

Yeah I was going to link that that article too. It was very good at clarifying where these restrictions are coming from (hint: it isn't Microsoft...)

 

[obeseotron]

Only OEM boxes will likely have real cablecard support, as the cable companies not only have to approve the tuner, but the whole PC for sale. This was reported a little while ago. Vista will do anything XP does but will also support new DRM like HDCP, which won't work at all on XP.

There already IS a work around for HDCP over DVI, a German company sells a box that strips the encryption, but it's illegal in the US.

 

[phisrow]

Something from MS on the subject (.doc)

I'm not quite sure how much of this will ship with Vista, and how much is just in the planning stages; but it's a pretty big shift in architecture. Crypto on every major bus in the system, continual hardware hash checking, etc. Most of the components are not particularly revolutionary(IBM, for example, has done a fair bit of work on secure encryption hardware in hostile environments); but the notion of using full-on hostile environment cryptographic systems on all systems is something of a sea change.

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: obeseotron
There already IS a work around for HDCP over DVI, a German company sells a box that strips the encryption, but it's illegal in the US.

Does that only replace a monitor upgrade, or does it actually negate the need for software support? As in, will it allow the high-def stuff on xp, *nix...?

Is it wrong for me to ask that? I don't live in the US 😛

 

[acole1]

Ah, ok... so you will be able to do everything the same as XP, with the adition of HDPC, providing you have an HDPC compatible monitor. I knew that MS didnt create DRM, but I didn't know to what extent they were enforcing/encouraging it in Vista.
Thanks!

 

[doornail]

Originally posted by: Matthias99
Vista will support content protected by HDCP (ie, Blu-Ray/HD-DVD movies), but the restrictions there are imposed by HDCP, not by Microsoft or Vista itself. You can only watch such content at full resolution on an HDCP-compliant monitor or HDTV.

Vista is also supposed to support Cablecard-compliant tuners for HD cable -- presumably with some DRM restrictions. There has been essentially no information released about this.

You make it sound like they are merely complying with zoning laws. They are a full partner in the next generation of restrictive, consumer-hostile media. Blu Ray and HD-DVD will ship with Microsoft formats/DRM as part of the standards.

To portray this as "poor poor Microsoft had no choice" is BS. No one is selling HD media today so there is no adopted standard for MS to acquiesce to. The could have easily;

A) Sat it out. Stayed in the operating system business instead of dragging all our desktops into the living room and selling them to the MPAA. Or;

B) Took a pro-consumer stance and told the media companies sorry, but if you want to market to our customers you'll have to make computing-friendly products.

Microsoft is subverting user ownership in exchange for an invitation to the Big Media Clubhouse.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: obeseotron
Only OEM boxes will likely have real cablecard support, as the cable companies not only have to approve the tuner, but the whole PC for sale. This was reported a little while ago. Vista will do anything XP does but will also support new DRM like HDCP, which won't work at all on XP.

There already IS a work around for HDCP over DVI, a German company sells a box that strips the encryption, but it's illegal in the US.

That's good to hear. Hopefully these will be available here in the US through a friend of a friend or something like that. Like I said, it's one thing for a company to protect their content but it's another thing to expect consumers to replace very expensive hardware in order to view it.

 

[stash]

To portray this as "poor poor Microsoft had no choice" is BS. No one is selling HD media today so there is no adopted standard for MS to acquiesce to.

This is not just about BluRay or HD-DVD. It's about digital cable, and Microsoft's desire to bring digital cable, in all it's glory, to people's computers. And that does not happen unless you play by CableLabs and the content providers rules.

Sat it out. Stayed in the operating system business instead of dragging all our desktops into the living room and selling them to the MPAA.

Right, and watch Apple pass you by in the home theater/living room/convergence space? No thanks.

Took a pro-consumer stance and told the media companies sorry, but if you want to market to our customers you'll have to make computing-friendly products.

I don't even know what this means. Computing-friendly products?? Customers have shown time and time again that they are willing to pay for DRM-ed media (iTunes anyone). This is a huge market, and this particular segment of it (full cable TV into a computer) has been so far untapped. Apple doesn't have anything, Linux doesn't have anything, and even TiVo doesn't have anything (yet). Microsoft spent years negotiating this deal with CableLabs, and it was no small feat. It may not be perfect, ala the lockout of hobbyists who want to build their own Media Centers, but it's a huge foot in the door.

 

[spyordie007]

it's one thing for a company to protect their content but it's another thing to expect consumers to replace very expensive hardware in order to view it

What do you mean I need to buy a new expensive TV to view it in color? Why cant I get the color content on my old B/W monitor?

Unfortunetly to be able to support the new HD content you'll need new hardware. I'm personally not in any rush to replace my old stuff (I still dont have a HD TV), I dont watch that much TV anyways.

 

[stash]

That's good to hear

Why is stealing protected media good to hear? Do you steal cable rather than pay the cable company for a set top box? This is the same thing, except the STB is moving to your computer. Therefore, the same rules around encryption that apply to the STB now must apply to your PC.

No one is forcing you to bring digital cable to your PC, so why do you feel the need to steal it? Just stick with an STB plugged into a TV (thus preserving all the required encryption paths) and move on.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: obeseotron
Only OEM boxes will likely have real cablecard support, as the cable companies not only have to approve the tuner, but the whole PC for sale. This was reported a little while ago. Vista will do anything XP does but will also support new DRM like HDCP, which won't work at all on XP.

There already IS a work around for HDCP over DVI, a German company sells a box that strips the encryption, but it's illegal in the US.

That's good to hear. Hopefully these will be available here in the US through a friend of a friend or something like that.

They'll also probably stop working the second they start releasing commercial titles on Blu-Ray/HD-DVD. I'm sure the "DVIMAGIC" will be the first devices on the HDCP blacklists once they start being used.

Like I said, it's one thing for a company to protect their content but it's another thing to expect consumers to replace very expensive hardware in order to view it.

Almost every HDTV sold in the last five years supports HDCP. It's really only on the PC side (where LCD monitor makers have been slacking off and not supporting it until very recently) that there is really an issue of having to replace much equipment.

You make it sound like they are merely complying with zoning laws. They are a full partner in the next generation of restrictive, consumer-hostile media. Blu Ray and HD-DVD will ship with Microsoft formats/DRM as part of the standards.

To portray this as "poor poor Microsoft had no choice" is BS. No one is selling HD media today so there is no adopted standard for MS to acquiesce to. The could have easily;

A) Sat it out. Stayed in the operating system business instead of dragging all our desktops into the living room and selling them to the MPAA. Or;

B) Took a pro-consumer stance and told the media companies sorry, but if you want to market to our customers you'll have to make computing-friendly products.

Microsoft is subverting user ownership in exchange for an invitation to the Big Media Clubhouse.

Well, unless you want to go rewrite copyright law, content owners have the right to dictate (within reason) how their content can be used and viewed. MS doesn't have to support HDCP -- but if they don't, you won't be able to watch Blu-Ray or HD-DVD content (at least in HD) on a Windows-based PC or HTPC. This is not Microsoft's decision, and in fact MS has said they are preferentially backing HD-DVD partially because of DRM issues with Blu-Ray.

If the DRM is too restrictive, people won't buy it, and the content providers will have to loosen the restrictions or come up with something else (see, e.g. the failed 'DIVX' DVD format). You want to fight them -- do it with your wallet and the wallets of your friends.

MS not building in the capability to watch DRM-protected content in Vista will not make it go away, but instead will just piss off their customers when they can't watch the content on their computer.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: STaSh

That's good to hear

Why is stealing protected media good to hear? Do you steal cable rather than pay the cable company for a set top box? This is the same thing, except the STB is moving to your computer. Therefore, the same rules around encryption that apply to the STB now must apply to your PC.

No one is forcing you to bring digital cable to your PC, so why do you feel the need to steal it? Just stick with an STB plugged into a TV (thus preserving all the required encryption paths) and move on.

I pay for HDTV and I've got a DVD collection that's over 300 legit movies and a CD collection that's about the same size. I said I don't mind paying for the content but I'm not going to replace my <2 year old TV and <1 year old monitor in order to do it. Do me a favor and read my posts before you jump down my throat.

EDIT: If my TV supports HDCP then I'm fine with it. I'll have to check on compatibility though. Someone told me you need HDMI for HDCP compatibility but then I was told that was false. I don't watch DVD's on my PC so I could deal with my monitor not being compliant but my TV is not an option.

 

[stash]

I said I don't mind paying for the content but I'm not going to replace my <2 year old TV and <1 year old monitor in order to do it

Gee, sounds like you mind to me. Don't buy it. If I had a relatively new TV that didn't support HDCP, I wouldn't buy a new one just to watch the crap that's out there today in a higher def.

 

[stash]

I don't watch DVD's on my PC so I could deal with my monitor not being compliant but my TV is not an option.

You don't need HDCP to watch your existing DVD collection on either display.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: STaSh

I said I don't mind paying for the content but I'm not going to replace my <2 year old TV and <1 year old monitor in order to do it

Gee, sounds like you mind to me. Don't buy it. If I had a relatively new TV that didn't support HDCP, I wouldn't buy a new one just to watch the crap that's out there today in a higher def.

Uh, I think you're missing my point. I said I don't mind paying for the content, hence my large DVD collection. I'm complaining about paying for the hardware in order to view the content.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: STaSh

I don't watch DVD's on my PC so I could deal with my monitor not being compliant but my TV is not an option.

You don't need HDCP to watch your existing DVD collection on either display.

Thanks for the info. By the way, did you know that water is wet? :roll:

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Robor
I pay for HDTV and I've got a DVD collection that's over 300 legit movies and a CD collection that's about the same size. I said I don't mind paying for the content but I'm not going to replace my <2 year old TV and <1 year old monitor in order to do it. Do me a favor and read my posts before you jump down my throat.

EDIT: If my TV supports HDCP then I'm fine with it. I'll have to check on compatibility though. Someone told me you need HDMI for HDCP compatibility but then I was told that was false. I don't watch DVD's on my PC so I could deal with my monitor not being compliant but my TV is not an option.

All HDTVs that support HDMI (AFAIK) support HDCP as well (or at least are supposed to). Most HDTVs that have DVI inputs (except for some very early and/or cheap ones) also support HDCP through them. If your TV is '<2 years old', and it's not a total piece of junk, it probably supports HDCP.

 

[doornail]

Originally posted by: spyordie007
What do you mean I need to buy a new expensive TV to view it in color? Why cant I get the color content on my old B/W monitor?

No it's more like:

What do you mean I need to buy a new expensive TV to view in in color? What can't I get the color content on my current expensive TV that meets all technical requirements except the extra crap added to reduce funtionality?

 

[doornail]

[Originally posted by: Matthias99
Well, unless you want to go rewrite copyright law, content owners have the right to dictate (within reason) how their content can be used and viewed. MS doesn't have to support HDCP -- but if they don't, you won't be able to watch Blu-Ray or HD-DVD content (at least in HD) on a Windows-based PC or HTPC. This is not Microsoft's decision, and in fact MS has said they are preferentially backing HD-DVD partially because of DRM issues with Blu-Ray.

If the DRM is too restrictive, people won't buy it, and the content providers will have to loosen the restrictions or come up with something else (see, e.g. the failed 'DIVX' DVD format). You want to fight them -- do it with your wallet and the wallets of your friends.

MS not building in the capability to watch DRM-protected content in Vista will not make it go away, but instead will just piss off their customers when they can't watch the content on their computer.

Funny you should mention copyright law, as it's a compromise between the rights of the public and the rights of the content creator. For a couple of hundred years the presumption has been that when you create something eventually it will fall into the public domain where anyone can use it freely to promote the common good. Yes, that's tough to visualize in the age of Reality TV.

Now, the problem with DRM and the law is DRM becomes the law. Content controllers can completely bypass legitimate legislative processes designed to protect consumer rights.

DRM should be illegal. It's controlled soley the people with the most to gain by abusing it.

And yes, I want to fight them very much. I will fight them with my wallet, and by educating my friends and family, and by responding on message boards like this one when people seek to minimalize the damage being done when vendors like Microsoft sell out their customers.

 

[bersl2]

Blah blah blah not MS's fault blah blah blah...

Hearing you apologists makes my stomach turn.

No, MS is not the one ultimately requiring these restrictions. That's true. It's also true that this is all one big, intentional clusterf*ck, and MS is a willing accessory. They are nearly as guilty.

Don't you get it? IT'S A TRAP!!! HD is all one big trap. HD is ready in a technological sense, but our society is not ready for it. We have too many issues that remain undecided. Continuing to push this technology at the current rate is putting a growing number of people into a position where, because the rules are being set unilaterally, they are deciding to break them.

Of course, I've heard it said that this may be the best thing to happen to society in a long time, because it will significantly reduce the amount of TV-watching. 😉

 

[stash]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: STaSh

I don't watch DVD's on my PC so I could deal with my monitor not being compliant but my TV is not an option.

You don't need HDCP to watch your existing DVD collection on either display.

Thanks for the info. By the way, did you know that water is wet? :roll:

:roll: yourself.

If you knew that, then why did you post the above?