Driving With Hands At 10-2 On The Wheel Is Probable Cause To Pull You Over, And Acne

[SlickSnake]

According to a recent ruling by the United States 10th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling on a border patrol stop in New Mexico, the answer is YES.

http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs...oodposture.pdf

Additionally, Agent Semmerling noticed Ms. Westhoven’s appearance was consistent with that of a drug user, including acne and facial scars, indicating to him that she might be willing to engage in drug smuggling. Agent Semmerling also noticed she had two cell phones, which was, in his experience, common practice for drug smugglers.

Looking at these circumstances in totality, we agree with the district court that Agent Semmerling had reasonable suspicion to extend the detention.

You could also easily apply this "reasonable suspicion" to a drug user, as well. Which they did. And having 2 cell phones also pegged her as a drug dealer. Even though many people obviously have a business phone and a personal phone, even the officers.

Additionally, the court claimed having your hands on the steering wheel at 10 and 2, you know, what drivers ED teaches you to do, is also sufficient grounds for a traffic stop.

Fourth, Agent Semmerling noticed as Ms. Westhoven was driving past him that she appeared stiff with elbows locked and hands in the ten-and-two position on the steering wheel

She lost her motion to suppress which was based on the fact she had some pot on her for personal use, which they arrested her for on trumped up drug distribution charges they couldn't even prove without evidence she was distributing. She claimed the pot was confiscated in an illegal stop, search, and arrest.

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/cindy-lee-westhoven/

Basically what the Federal Appeals courts are saying, is the cops can pull you over for any piddly reason at all, and they will support the cops 100% in the process. Justice DENIED.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

Hopefully, it gets appealed to a higher court.

 

[justoh]

Hopefully, it gets appealed to a higher court.

Yeah i'm sure the supreme court will have time to fit that in. They don't really do much.

 

[DigDog]

we_are_n1.gif

 

[Matt1970]

Sorry, they lost me at acne being associated with drug smuggling. This is what happens when we put idiots on the bench and make it nearly impossible to remove them.

 

[justoh]

Sorry, they lost me at acne being associated with drug smuggling. This is what happens when we put idiots on the bench and make it nearly impossible to remove them.

Where did anyone make that association? The version I read linked it to possible meth usage.

 

[alzan]

I wonder how many illegals got through while the officer was detaining Ms. Westhoven for her personal use marijuana?

 

[WHAMPOM]

You do remember the Air Port list of possible Terrorist suspicious activity? Walking fast, walking slow, hands in pockets, hands open, hands clenched, etc, X 1000.

 

[brianmanahan]

she had pot, so she's guilty.

throw her in jail.

 

[MrColin]

I like to drive with expired plates so cops don't piss me off by making stuff up to justify their harassment.

 

[Double Trouble]

That's not what the ruling says at all. The ruling says that all the factors -- when put together -- made for reasonable suspicion. They didn't say any of those things would be sufficient for reasonable suspicion, but put them together and it makes reasonable suspicion.

 

[notposting]

That's not what the ruling says at all. The ruling says that all the factors -- when put together -- made for reasonable suspicion. They didn't say any of those things would be sufficient for reasonable suspicion, but put them together and it makes reasonable suspicion.

What "all factors" though?! Driving with hands where you are taught? Some friggin acne/acne scars? Two phones? That's probably half the registered users on AT Forums...

Edit: "WE ALSO SUBMIT, YOUR HONOR, THAT THE DEFENDANT HAD HER HEAD PLACED ABOVE HER SHOULDERS WHICH STATISTICALLY SPEAKING FITS THE PROFILE OF DRUG DEALERS AS WELL." "ALSO, SHE WAS BREATHING."

 

[Matt1970]

What "all factors" though?! Driving with hands where you are taught? Some friggin acne/acne scars? Two phones? That's probably half the registered users on AT Forums...

Edit: "WE ALSO SUBMIT, YOUR HONOR, THAT THE DEFENDANT HAD HER HEAD PLACED ABOVE HER SHOULDERS WHICH STATISTICALLY SPEAKING FITS THE PROFILE OF DRUG DEALERS AS WELL." "ALSO, SHE WAS BREATHING."

Yep, that's probably cause.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Where did anyone make that association? The version I read linked it to possible meth usage.

The version that I read has her claiming to be an Atheist while asking God to intervene and not allow her to be arrested!!

 

[werepossum]

What "all factors" though?! Driving with hands where you are taught? Some friggin acne/acne scars? Two phones? That's probably half the registered users on AT Forums...

Edit: "WE ALSO SUBMIT, YOUR HONOR, THAT THE DEFENDANT HAD HER HEAD PLACED ABOVE HER SHOULDERS WHICH STATISTICALLY SPEAKING FITS THE PROFILE OF DRUG DEALERS AS WELL." "ALSO, SHE WAS BREATHING."

+1

 

[alzan]

That's not what the ruling says at all. The ruling says that all the factors -- when put together -- made for reasonable suspicion. They didn't say any of those things would be sufficient for reasonable suspicion, but put them together and it makes reasonable suspicion.

I'm sure the officer and judge thought that they were being reasonable that someone driving a car was suspicious.

 

[DrPizza]

FWIW, 10 & 2 is a holdover from the old days when there wasn't power steering. 10&2 isn't the recommended location in case of air bag deployment.
(google it - there are tons of sights that talk about this, including: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/get-times-youre-driving-all-wrong-f518710 )

If driver's ed teachers are still teaching this, it's probably because it's the way they were taught, and they're among those teachers* who don't think that keeping up to date with their knowledge is important.

*I mentioned this to our local driver's ed teacher; "that's been gone for years."

 

[notposting]

FWIW, 10 & 2 is a holdover from the old days when there wasn't power steering. 10&2 isn't the recommended location in case of air bag deployment.
(google it - there are tons of sights that talk about this, including: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/get-times-youre-driving-all-wrong-f518710 )

If driver's ed teachers are still teaching this, it's probably because it's the way they were taught, and they're among those teachers* who don't think that keeping up to date with their knowledge is important.

*I mentioned this to our local driver's ed teacher; "that's been gone for years."

Yeah, but I bet driving with one hand down low on the wheel is probably also suspicious.

Or two hands low. Or high. Or crossed. WHATEVER IT TAKES

Huh. It also says to push-pull for turns for the same reasons, I definitely have a tendency to reach across the wheel :hmm:

 

[Meghan54]

Did Anyone read the linked court ruling?

What initially got the cop suspicious was her out-of-state tags on a vehicle driving in a very rural area no one from out of state drives, only locals. And she'd probably have gotten out of it if her story wasn't so implausible, like taking that road to go shopping from a town "nearby", but the route she was taking, that out-of-the-way rural road, would make her trip about 100 miles more than the "direct" route that any normal person would have taken between the two towns she claimed she was driving from and to.

Much more than just acne and 10-and-2 hand driving position.

 

[SlickSnake]

Did Anyone read the linked court ruling?

What initially got the cop suspicious was her out-of-state tags on a vehicle driving in a very rural area no one from out of state drives, only locals. And she'd probably have gotten out of it if her story wasn't so implausible, like taking that road to go shopping from a town "nearby", but the route she was taking, that out-of-the-way rural road, would make her trip about 100 miles more than the "direct" route that any normal person would have taken between the two towns she claimed she was driving from and to.

Much more than just acne and 10-and-2 hand driving position.

Yea, I read the entire court document which I cut and pasted from, after seeing the news link. That's why I listed it at the top for a link, and put the sensationalized news link at the bottom.

What stood out to me the most was the overzealous attempt to justify pulling her over with a ridiculous amount of disconnected reasons, and all because of drug smuggling, and many of them were just not credible for probable cause.

And what was not really addressed was the fact she was basically a woman alone on a deserted highway with out of state plates and probably lost, and the border patrol was bored and just looking for someone to harass, which is exactly what they did. She was probably the big bust of the day for them. How sad is that. And they tried to railroad her with trumped up drug smuggling charges, instead of possession, just because they could increase the penalties and jail time.

 

[SlickSnake]

FWIW, 10 & 2 is a holdover from the old days when there wasn't power steering. 10&2 isn't the recommended location in case of air bag deployment.
(google it - there are tons of sights that talk about this, including: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/get-times-youre-driving-all-wrong-f518710 )

If driver's ed teachers are still teaching this, it's probably because it's the way they were taught, and they're among those teachers* who don't think that keeping up to date with their knowledge is important.

*I mentioned this to our local driver's ed teacher; "that's been gone for years."

My first car I traded a fairly new component home stereo system for was a 1956 Ford Fairlane 4 door with a Thunderbird V8 in it that would eat stock 56-57 Chevy's any time, any where. That thing was a beast. So while the car was about 20 years old by the time I got it, when I had drivers ED was in 1977. My how time flies.