Don't mess with New Hampshire.

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
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http://www.reformer.com/region/ci_3752298

N.H. leads rebellion against new licenses

CONCORD, N.H. -- New Hampshire has suddenly become a battleground in the fight over privacy rights versus homeland security, with state legislators voting against strict new federal standards for issuing driver's licenses.

At issue is the federal Real ID Act, which is intended to keep terrorists from getting fake IDs. It requires states by 2008 to verify documents such as birth certificates, Social Security cards and passports when people get driver's licenses. State databases with driver information and photos will also be linked.

Last month, the Republican-controlled New Hampshire House overwhelmingly voted to bar the state from participating in the program. A vote in the GOP-dominated Senate is expected in two weeks. Democratic Gov. John Lynch remains undecided.

The move has won backing from the American Civil Liberties Union as well as conservative privacy advocates and Christian fundamentalists.

Republican state Rep. Neal Kurk, author of the bill against Real ID, gave a stirring speech during the debate.

"I don't believe the people of New Hampshire elected us to help the federal government create a national identification card," Kurk told the House. "We care more for our liberties than to meekly hand over to the federal government the potential to ennumerate, track, identify and eventually control."

"I think New Hampshire will set the dominoes falling in the states," said Barry Steinhardt, director of the Technology and Liberty Program of the ACLU, who testified for Kurk's bill at a recent Senate hearing alongside a member of the conservative Cato Institute. "Who's going to say, 'The emperor has no clothes?' New Hampshire's in a good position to do that."

Legislation in other states would condemn Real ID, but Kurk's bill is the toughest legislation making real progress anywhere, Steinhardt said.

A weekend rally featuring Real ID opponents in Nazi uniforms attracted lawmakers from both parties, and worried members of Congress dispatched a staff member from the House Judiciary Committee to meet one-on-one with state senators in advance of a committee vote Wednesday.

Supporters of Real ID say blocking it will isolate New Hampshire, requiring residents to get a passport if they want to board an airplane or enter a federal building.



It's the End of Days! The ACLU and Conservatives and Christian Fundamentalists working together!!!
New Hampshire has a pair. A BIG pair.

 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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New Hampshire is one of the greatest states in the 'union.' It is one of only 2 states that doesn't have either a state income tax or a sales tax.
 

43st

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
3,197
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
New Hampshire is one of the greatest states in the 'union.' It is one of only 2 states that doesn't have either a state income tax or a sales tax.

The difference in revenue is made up with property tax. Still a great state though. :D
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,836
2,620
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
New Hampshire is one of the greatest states in the 'union.' It is one of only 2 states that doesn't have either a state income tax or a sales tax.

They do have astronomically property tax levels. Aout ten years ago a friend offered me a real nice vacation cottage for about $40-50k, which was a bit below the market price. Annual property taxes were about $3000.

Usually NH local politics are somewhere in the Attila The Hun region. Back in the Vietnam era they successfully prosecuted pacifists who covered up the "Live Free or Die" slogan on their own license plate. Their man newspaper-the Manchester Union Leader-is one of the most conservative major papers around, if not the most conervative.

I am heartened by their resistance to increasing federal encroachment and I say more power to them in this situation.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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What morons, god forbid they verify who it is they are issuing an ID to.

On top of that these idiots must have forgot what a SS card is. We have had a national ID card for 70 years.


 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: Thera
Originally posted by: Dissipate
New Hampshire is one of the greatest states in the 'union.' It is one of only 2 states that doesn't have either a state income tax or a sales tax.

The difference in revenue is made up with property tax. Still a great state though. :D

Yeah, I guess you would have to look at other factors to determine overall tax burden.

I don't think there is any state that has no property tax.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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Originally posted by: techs
It's the End of Days! The ACLU and Conservatives and Christian Fundamentalists working together!!!
New Hampshire has a pair. A BIG pair.
See? And some around here seem to think the ACLU only works with NAMBLA. :roll:

Anyway, a great decision by NH, let's hope more states follow suit.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,756
600
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Thera
Originally posted by: Dissipate
New Hampshire is one of the greatest states in the 'union.' It is one of only 2 states that doesn't have either a state income tax or a sales tax.

The difference in revenue is made up with property tax. Still a great state though. :D

Yeah, I guess you would have to look at other factors to determine overall tax burden.

I don't think there is any state that has no property tax.

I actually prefer higher sales taxes in some ways. Property taxes just screw the residents of the states...but sales taxes screw everyone who's just driving through as well.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: PingSpike


I actually prefer higher sales taxes in some ways. Property taxes just screw the residents of the states...but sales taxes screw everyone who's just driving through as well.



That would be true except for the fact that sales taxes are paid by businesses, not consumers.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,756
600
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: PingSpike


I actually prefer higher sales taxes in some ways. Property taxes just screw the residents of the states...but sales taxes screw everyone who's just driving through as well.



That would be true except for the fact that sales taxes are paid by businesses, not consumers.

You could have fooled me. So who is keeping all of that extra nickle I pay on every dollar anyway?
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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Originally posted by: PingSpike
You could have fooled me. So who is keeping all of that extra nickle I pay on every dollar anyway?


You don't pay an extra nickle, the business has to pay it out of its gross revenue.

Think of it this way. Suppose a business is selling a good at the equilibrium price (i.e. the highest possible price they can charge in order to maximize revenue). Along comes government that imposes a sales tax on all businesses. Could the business increase its price and pass on the sales tax to the consumer? No. The price is already as high as it can possibly be. If it goes any higher their revenue will go down. Since the price can't go any higher the business is stuck. They basically have to pay the sales tax directly out of their own pocket.

A business might try to get you to believe you are paying sales tax by arbitrarily adding a percentage to some price they have posted, but that is merely a ploy to put political pressure on politicians to keep sales taxes down.

 

azazyel

Diamond Member
Oct 6, 2000
5,872
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Originally posted by: Genx87
What morons, god forbid they verify who it is they are issuing an ID to.

On top of that these idiots must have forgot what a SS card is. We have had a national ID card for 70 years.

But how often are you asked for your SS card?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,390
8,547
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: PingSpike
You could have fooled me. So who is keeping all of that extra nickle I pay on every dollar anyway?


You don't pay an extra nickle, the business has to pay it out of its gross revenue.

Think of it this way. Suppose a business is selling a good at the equilibrium price (i.e. the highest possible price they can charge in order to maximize revenue). Along comes government that imposes a sales tax on all businesses. Could the business increase its price and pass on the sales tax to the consumer? No. The price is already as high as it can possibly be. If it goes any higher their revenue will go down. Since the price can't go any higher the business is stuck. They basically have to pay the sales tax directly out of their own pocket.

A business might try to get you to believe you are paying sales tax by arbitrarily adding a percentage to some price they have posted, but that is merely a ploy to put political pressure on politicians to keep sales taxes down.

you fail at microeconomics.

in a normal competitive market with a negatively sloped demand curve and a postively sloped supply curve, the tax burden is shared by both the supplier and demander, the quantity supplied and the quantity demanded decrease, the price paid by the demander increases, the price recevied by the supplier decreases, and there is deadweight loss consisting of the triangle between where the normal market clearning price is and the new quantity line.

the situation you've described would only be where demand is perfectly flat.

a drawing

the purple is the tax collected, the yellow is the deadweight loss. the red lines indicate the price paid by consumers and the quantity sold. the blue line (at the bottom of the purple) indicates the indicates the price received by suppliers.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: MBrown
I am proud to be a New Hampshirite! :) Manchester, NH to be exact ;)
You have a heckuva mall there. Mmmmm. BestBuy+No tax.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: azazyel
Originally posted by: Genx87
What morons, god forbid they verify who it is they are issuing an ID to.

On top of that these idiots must have forgot what a SS card is. We have had a national ID card for 70 years.

But how often are you asked for your SS card?

Whenever you apply for a loan, CC, cell phone, checking account, medical insurance, car insurance, house insurance, passport, cable tv, home phone and soon more things.

What exactly is the difference between a national ID card and a SS number? Both do the same thing, identify who you are for tracking purposes.

 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,756
600
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: azazyel
Originally posted by: Genx87
What morons, god forbid they verify who it is they are issuing an ID to.

On top of that these idiots must have forgot what a SS card is. We have had a national ID card for 70 years.

But how often are you asked for your SS card?

Whenever you apply for a loan, CC, cell phone, checking account, medical insurance, car insurance, house insurance, passport, cable tv, home phone and soon more things.

What exactly is the difference between a national ID card and a SS number? Both do the same thing, identify who you are for tracking purposes.

Sounds like an excellent argument against a national ID card. We already have one. Creating a second one would just be a collosal waste of taxpayer money.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: azazyel
Originally posted by: Genx87
What morons, god forbid they verify who it is they are issuing an ID to.

On top of that these idiots must have forgot what a SS card is. We have had a national ID card for 70 years.

But how often are you asked for your SS card?

Whenever you apply for a loan, CC, cell phone, checking account, medical insurance, car insurance, house insurance, passport, cable tv, home phone and soon more things.

What exactly is the difference between a national ID card and a SS number? Both do the same thing, identify who you are for tracking purposes.

Sounds like we should prevent anyone except the goverment from requisting a SS.
 

MBrown

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
5,726
35
91
Originally posted by: BroeBo
Although they are the upside down version of my state, good for them!

cough. I believe its the other way around. ;) (assuming you are in vermont) Vermont used to be part of NH.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: azazyel
Originally posted by: Genx87
What morons, god forbid they verify who it is they are issuing an ID to.

On top of that these idiots must have forgot what a SS card is. We have had a national ID card for 70 years.

But how often are you asked for your SS card?

Whenever you apply for a loan, CC, cell phone, checking account, medical insurance, car insurance, house insurance, passport, cable tv, home phone and soon more things.

What exactly is the difference between a national ID card and a SS number? Both do the same thing, identify who you are for tracking purposes.

Sounds like an excellent argument against a national ID card. We already have one. Creating a second one would just be a collosal waste of taxpayer money.

I agree it is a waste of time. But I find it funny people's reaction to the idea of a national id card when we already have one.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: azazyel
Originally posted by: Genx87
What morons, god forbid they verify who it is they are issuing an ID to.

On top of that these idiots must have forgot what a SS card is. We have had a national ID card for 70 years.

But how often are you asked for your SS card?

Whenever you apply for a loan, CC, cell phone, checking account, medical insurance, car insurance, house insurance, passport, cable tv, home phone and soon more things.

What exactly is the difference between a national ID card and a SS number? Both do the same thing, identify who you are for tracking purposes.

Sounds like we should prevent anyone except the goverment from requisting a SS.

I agree 100%, but good luck doing that.