Don't just avoid speeding in Ohio, avoid "looking" like you're speeding, too.

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zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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http://thenewspaper.com/news/31/3160.asp

Ohio Supreme Court Upholds Speeding Ticket By Visual Guess
Police officers in Ohio can issue speeding tickets based on sight, state supreme court rules.

In a 5-1 decision yesterday, Ohio's Supreme Court upheld a speeding ticket based solely on how fast a driver appeared to be moving. The court considered the case of motorist Mark Jenney who drove through a State Route 21 radar speed trap operated by Copley police officer Christopher R Santimarino on July 3, 2008. Santimarino guessed based on the appearance of Jenney's black SUV that it was traveling at 79 MPH in a 60 zone.

Santimarino claimed that his thirteen years as a traffic cop and his certification in speed estimation by the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy qualified him to make expert visual determinations of how fast vehicles are moving within 4 MPH. In court, Santimarino testified that his radar showed Jenney was traveling at 82 MPH on direct examination and 83 MPH on cross-examination.

Based on this, a district court convicted Jenney. On appeal, Jenney succeeded in having the radar evidence thrown out because the officer failed to produce the required certification documents at trial. The appeals court then ruled that the visual guess as to Jenney's speed was sufficient evidence for a conviction. Jenney appealed to the supreme court, which agreed with the lower court rulings that an officer's educated guess is sufficient to overcome that state's burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

"A majority of the appellate districts that have considered the issue have held that an officer's testimony that in his opinion, a defendant was traveling in excess of the speed limit is sufficient to sustain a conviction for speeding," Justice Maureen O'Connor wrote for the majority. "Given Santimarino's training, OPOTA certification, and experience in visually estimating vehicle speed, his estimation that Jenney was traveling 70 miles per hour was sufficient to support Jenney's conviction... We hold that a police officer's unaided visual estimation of a vehicle's speed is sufficient evidence to support a conviction for speeding in violation of R.C. 4511.21(D) without independent verification of the vehicle's speed if the officer is trained, is certified by the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy or a similar organization that develops and implements training programs to meet the needs of law enforcement professionals and the communities they serve, and is experienced in visually estimating vehicle speed."

Justice Terrence O'Donnell filed a dissent that argued the majority essentially created a standard that the police officer is always right.

"Like any other witness, a police officer's credibility is to be determined by the jury or other fact-finder," O'Donnell wrote. "In fact, jury instructions given regularly by trial judges advise that a jury is privileged to believe all, part, or none of the testimony of any witness. Thus, I would assert that a broad standard as postulated by the majority that a trained, certified, and experienced officer's estimate of speed is sufficient evidence to support a conviction for speeding eclipses the role of the fact-finder to reject such testimony and thus such testimony, if found not to be credible, could, in some instances, be insufficient to support a conviction."

I find this quite disturbing. We all know how foolproof and concrete "training" is. No one who has been through training could ever be wrong. :rolleyes:

I realize that it's quite easy to tell if someone is way exceeding the speed limit, but since fines/points are assessed by how much over the limit you were travelling, I fail to see how an officer's "best educated guess" on the exact speed is sufficient to convict someone and extract money. I guess if the police department is not meeting its quota for a given month/quarter, the officers can "guess" people are speeding just a few more MPH faster, to bump them into a higher fee.
 
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Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
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ostif.org
Z, i saw you driving yesterday and it looked like you were doing 638MPH.

Please send payment to your nearest police station within 7 days.

I went through training. etc.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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I think this is a repost (maybe it was in OT?), but very important news. The standard for "reasonable doubt" in determining your innocence is rapidly being thrown out the window. States need money to support all of the ridiculous programs that they have in place and will do anything and everything they can to increase revenue, including pissing on your rights in an effort to see how much blood they can squeeze from the turnip before the turnip fights back.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
I think this is a repost (maybe it was in OT?), but very important news. The standard for "reasonable doubt" in determining your innocence is rapidly being thrown out the window. States need money to support all of the ridiculous programs that they have in place and will do anything and everything they can to increase revenue, including pissing on your rights in an effort to see how much blood they can squeeze from the turnip before the turnip fights back.

Well this could easily be overturned (like Virginia's no radar detector law)... but it would take someone who could afford to bring it all the way to the State supreme courts. Until then... if you are in Ohio.. wear a grandma wig when driving.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
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Well this could easily be overturned (like Virginia's no radar detector law)... but it would take someone who could afford to bring it all the way to the State supreme courts. Until then... if you are in Ohio.. wear a grandma wig when driving.

No, this would have to go to the SCOTUS. This ruling came from the Ohio state supreme court.
 

Sinsear

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2007
6,439
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I posted this over in OT in response:

This had been the case in NY for some time now (1957).

People vs. Heyser

Also known as the Heyser 5mph rule (for those who have had to testify). An officer properly trained in independent speed estimates is able to tell the speed of a vehicle within 5 mph; and must be able to to be certified with radar/lidar in NY.

It's in NY and not Ohio but has stood up in court over time.


Radar/lidar is only a confirmation of an independent speed estimate made by an officers visual observation.
 
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Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
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I posted this over in OT in response:

This had been the case in NY for some time now (1957).

People vs. Heyser

Also known as the Heyser 5mp rule. An officer properly trained in independent speed estimates is able to tell the speed of a vehicle within 5 mph; and must be able to to be certified with radar/lidar in NY.

It's in NY and not Ohio but has stood up in court over time.


Radar/lidar is only a confirmation of an independent speed estimate made by an officers visual observation.

I didn't read that whole link but it basically says the officer paced the car for 1/4 of a mile which is quite a bit different from guessing at the speed. I actually looked up the statute regarding pace tickets here in Virginia years ago and they have to pace you for 1/4 mile. That is quite a bit different than just giving a SWAG estimate of someones speed when they wiz by you.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
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91
Well this could easily be overturned (like Virginia's no radar detector law)... but it would take someone who could afford to bring it all the way to the State supreme courts. Until then... if you are in Ohio.. wear a grandma wig when driving.

That law is still in effect, the only thing the SCOTUS changed is the law now says "operate" vs "own" a radar detector.
 

Sinsear

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2007
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I didn't read that whole link but it basically says the officer paced the car for 1/4 of a mile which is quite a bit different from guessing at the speed. I actually looked up the statute regarding pace tickets here in Virginia years ago and they have to pace you for 1/4 mile. That is quite a bit different than just giving a SWAG estimate of someones speed when they wiz by you.


Well in NY an estimate is all that's needed, because of this case:
He also testified that he drove motor vehicles since he received his
license in 1938; during that time he has had occasion to estimate
the speed of moving cars; he checked those estimates against the
speedometer, and it usually came fairly close — within 5 miles or
so. "Independent of the speedometer", and at the time he was
following this defendant, he estimated the speed of defendant's
car at about 60 m.p.h. Einemann further testified that on several
occasions he had checked his estimates of the speed of vehicles
with radar devices, and had found that his estimates were correct
or "within five miles".
 
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