Don't be fooled, America is having success against terror

[charrison]

linkage

Then there are the strategic realities. Consider what has happened in the Near East since Sept. 11, 2001:

(1) In Afghanistan, the Taliban have been overthrown and a decent government installed.

(2) In Iraq, the Saddam regime has been overthrown, the dynasty destroyed, and the possibility for a civilized form of governance exists for the first time in 30 years.

(3) In Iran, with dictatorships toppled to the east (Afghanistan) and the west (Iraq), popular resistance to the dictatorship of the mullahs has intensified.

(4) In Pakistan, once the sponsor and chief supporter of the Taliban, the government radically reversed course and became a leading American ally in the war on terror.

(5) In Saudi Arabia, where the presence of U.S. troops near the holy cities of Mecca and Medina deeply inflamed relations with many Muslims, the American military is leaving -- not in retreat or with apology, but because it is no longer needed to protect Saudi Arabia from Saddam.

(6) Yemen, totally unhelpful to the United States after the attack on the USS Cole, has started cooperating in the war on terror.

(7) In the small stable Gulf states, new alliances with the United States have been established.

(8) Kuwait's future is secure, the threat from Saddam having been eliminated.

(9) Jordan is secure, no longer having Iraq's tank armies and radical nationalist influence at its back.

(10) Syria has gone quiet, closing terrorist offices in Damascus and downplaying its traditional anti-Americanism.

(11) Lebanon's southern frontier is quiet for the first time in years, as Hezbollah, reading the new strategic situation, has stopped cross-border attacks into Israel.

(12) Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations have been restarted, a truce declared, and a fledgling Palestinian leadership established that might actually be prepared to make a real peace with Israel.

That's every country from the Khyber Pass to the Mediterranean Sea. Everywhere you look, the forces of moderation have been strengthened. This is a huge strategic advance not just for the region but for the world, because this region in its decades-long stagnation has incubated the world's most virulent anti-American, anti-Western, anti-democratic and anti-modernist fanaticism.

 

[MonstaThrilla]

It should be noted that townhall.com is an unabashedly right wing web site.

Here's some arguments against some of the points:

1) A decent government has been installed in Kabul only, not the whole of Afghanistan.
2) True dat. They were a threat to us how again?
3) The Iranian youth who are the resistance would object to these reasons as for why they're doing it.
4) Their self-installed military dictator is our ally, not the Pakistani people who hate us fervently.
5) True dat. But why did we have to protect them from Saddam in the first place?
6)...9) True demz.
10) I thought Syria might have been where the terrorist Saddam regime was hiding and/or where the WMDs are?
11)...12) Good progress has been made here, but the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has made the baby steps to peace many times, all failing.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
It should be noted that townhall.com is an unabashedly right wing web site.

Here's some arguments against some of the points:

1) A decent government has been installed in Kabul only, not the whole of Afghanistan.
2) True dat. They were a threat to us how again?
3) The Iranian youth who are the resistance would object to these reasons as for why they're doing it.
4) Their self-installed military dictator is our ally, not the Pakistani people who hate us fervently.
5) True dat. But why did we have to protect them from Saddam in the first place?
6)...9) True demz.
10) I thought Syria might have been where the terrorist Saddam regime was hiding and/or where the WMDs are?
11)...12) Good progress has been made here, but the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has made the baby steps to peace many times, all failing.

IT maybe a right wing site, but you seem to agree on many of his points.

1. Things are better in afganistan than you think.

 

[MonstaThrilla]

I agree that the President was doing a very good job with fighting terror until he (in my view) inexplicably started beating the war drums for Iraq. That made the country and military lose focus in the job that still needed to be done in Afghanistan and the chaotic northwest region of Pakistan. That's what turned me against him (in foreign policy).

But I do applaud the work he's trying to do with Palestine. And I do admit that Israel would not have been so willing to start the peace process if Saddam was still in power.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: charrison
linkage

Then there are the strategic realities. Consider what has happened in the Near East since Sept. 11, 2001:

(1) In Afghanistan, the Taliban have been overthrown and a decent government installed.

The Taliban is making a resurgence in Afghanistan, and finding popular support, albeit probably with little Al-Queda influence

(2) In Iraq, the Saddam regime has been overthrown, the dynasty destroyed, and the possibility for a civilized form of governance exists for the first time in 30 years.

I agree with this.

(3) In Iran, with dictatorships toppled to the east (Afghanistan) and the west (Iraq), popular resistance to the dictatorship of the mullahs has intensified.

Reform in Iran has become more difficult since Bush rebuffed friendly overtures from Iran from both the government and moderates with the "Axis of Evil" speech. Protestation does not equal resistance.

(4) In Pakistan, once the sponsor and chief supporter of the Taliban, the government radically reversed course and became a leading American ally in the war on terror.

Evidence suggests that there are more Al-Queda members in Pakistan than ever were in Iraq.

(5) In Saudi Arabia, where the presence of U.S. troops near the holy cities of Mecca and Medina deeply inflamed relations with many Muslims, the American military is leaving -- not in retreat or with apology, but because it is no longer needed to protect Saudi Arabia from Saddam.

True, but incomplete. The Saudis need us to leave to quell resistance among their people, who live in a remarkably oppressive society. We are helping them out too.

(6) Yemen, totally unhelpful to the United States after the attack on the USS Cole, has started cooperating in the war on terror.

Yemen supports us, because the leadership gets money that it uses to bribe factions that would otherwise bring it down. An effective tactic, but not one that depended on the "war on terror", just an adjustment of financial arraingements

(7) In the small stable Gulf states, new alliances with the United States have been established.

What is the basid of these alliances, and what do they materially gain? A serious question.

(8) Kuwait's future is secure, the threat from Saddam having been eliminated.

Kuwait was secure after 91. Saddam learned what happend that time, and no credible evidence suggests a return any time soon.

(9) Jordan is secure, no longer having Iraq's tank armies and radical nationalist influence at its back.

Jordan was secure. It's main problem was unrest created my it's own people when it supported the US position, and was relieved by Jordans own helicopter gunships.

(10) Syria has gone quiet, closing terrorist offices in Damascus and downplaying its traditional anti-Americanism.

Ok, Syria is quiet.

(11) Lebanon's southern frontier is quiet for the first time in years, as Hezbollah, reading the new strategic situation, has stopped cross-border attacks into Israel.

I don't know about this, so I cannot comment.

(12) Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations have been restarted, a truce declared, and a fledgling Palestinian leadership established that might actually be prepared to make a real peace with Israel.

A good thing, but not related to anything else. I would remind people that this new leadership is still controlled by Arafat. Still, there is hope that Arafat may diminish.

That's every country from the Khyber Pass to the Mediterranean Sea. Everywhere you look, the forces of moderation have been strengthened. This is a huge strategic advance not just for the region but for the world, because this region in its decades-long stagnation has incubated the world's most virulent anti-American, anti-Western, anti-democratic and anti-modernist fanaticism.

A little too soon to weigh in on either side of the question. I hope things improve, but time will tell.

 

[Zebo]

1. Total BS. The savagry by the warlord lead government over there is no better. And taliban is comming back because we are not spending the resources nor personel required to oust them. We rarley venture outside Kabol today.

2. Not yet.... And lots of terrorists have been created from what was basically a controlled by Saddam populus. Keep humilaing and killing innocents and we will create a whole new generation of terrorists.

3. Civil war great. More dead. More radicalism.

4. Hehe Pakistan. They scare me.. One shot away from revolution.. Are you sure whos working in thier Nuke program.. Maybe second uncle Osama wants a few milligrams a day of Uranium from the reactor he works at.

5. 98% of SA hates us, another country close to revolution and radical islam coupled with our support of the royals spawning a million suicide bombers.

6. Yemen is a joke, no resources, no money, nothing, never been a threat.

7. While continued hatred is festering amoung thier non-royal populations.

8. Kuwait is a socialist monarchy- weathy enough to pay thier taxi drivers 100K a year and has never been a problem.

9. Jordan has always been our bitch politically.. Another royal dictatorship spawning little osamas.

10. Syria is STFU until they get nukes, probably from NK, then they'll voice thier concerns with Israel over Golan Hights.

11. Lebonon, aww the former Paris of the meditranian , almost everyone is dead or moved to the USA.. No people no problems.

12. Israel will not release all the prisoners, will not stop building, the deal is dead before it even started.

 

[BarneyFife]

1. Things are better in afganistan than you think.

Not really. I saw a CBC documentary on Afghanistan a couple months ago (It was an Afghani woman going back to her country) and the women were still treated like 10th rate citizens and overall it was still pretty bad. The whole country is in disarray except for Kabul.
When the president is afraid to leave Kabul and go to other parts of the country, then you know its bad.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

1. Things are better in afganistan than you think.

Not really. I saw a CBC documentary on Afghanistan a couple months ago (It was an Afghani woman going back to her country) and the women were still treated like 10th rate citizens and overall it was still pretty bad. The whole country is in disarray except for Kabul.
When the president is afraid to leave Kabul and go to other parts of the country, then you know its bad.

linkage

You might want to read up on all the reconstruction projects going on outside of kabul.


Reopened the Salang Tunnel and made preparations for keeping it open during the winter. More than 1,000 vehicles and 8,000 people use the tunnel every day. Seventy percent of the fuel for Kabul passes through it.

Completed demining, grading, and leveling through 51 miles of Kabul-Kandahar-Herat Highway, and will begin asphalting soon.

Completed over 6,100 water-related projects, including wells, irrigation canals, karezes, dams, reservoirs, and potable water systems.

Supported over 225 spot reconstruction projects such as government buildings, schools, roads, bridges, irrigation systems and other community projects that provide local workers with thousands of days of labor.

Will rebuild thousands of schools, irrigation systems, and other vital infrastructure in villages adjacent to reconstructed highways.

Is rehabilitating 2,500 miles of road, is reconstructing 31 bridges, and has kept open an additional three mountain passes.

Restoring 750 miles of Highway 1

Increased food production and reduced the number of Afghans dependent on food aid in 2002 from approximately 10 million to 6 million. Further progress will be made in 2003.

Contributed to an 82 percent increase in fall 2002 wheat yields by providing fertilizer and improved wheat seed to 113,000 farmers in 12 provinces. The resulting estimated increase in wheat production translates into an additional $69 net income per farmer?whereas average family income in similar countries is only $100?$200 total per year.

Established a crushing facility in Helmand to produce and market peanut and other oils from the high-value crops produced with USAID assistance.

Promotes high-value crop diversification (e.g., grapes, olives, peanuts, cotton) in poppy-growing areas for approximately 18,000 farmers. In exchange for participating in the program, farmers must give up producing poppy and are closely monitored. Since this program started, cotton production in the program area increased three-fold.

Supported the 2002 Back-to-School campaign by printing 15 million textbooks for 2.9 million students, 30 percent of whom were girls.

Trained 3,600 teachers.

Produced and distributed 30,000 teacher instructional material kits.
Provided a curriculum development workshop for the Ministry of Education, NGOs involved in the education sector, and critical donors.

Established an accelerated learning program to address the problems of retention of over-aged students and lack of access for out-of-school youth.

Provided food salary supplement to 55,000 teachers, valued at 26 percent of monthly income.

Provides food rations as incentives for families to send their daughters to school.

Built/reconstructed 113 primary and secondary schools and teacher training institutes.
Will build or rehabilitate 1,000 more schools over the next three years.

Effectively managed the currency conversion process on behalf of the central bank by providing personnel to staff the 52 exchange points as well as counting machines, shredders, and transportation for moving the currency.

Provided more than $25 million in fiscal years 2001 and 2002 for humanitarian projects with a cash-for-work or food-for-work component. USAID also is creating short-term jobs for approximately 3 million people. Local Afghans receive cash or food payments for providing services that benefit entire communities, such as repairing infrastructure.

Provided $700,000 to help Afghans begin small-scale, income-generating activities at the village level, such as kitchen gardens, embroidery, cheese and yogurt production, and shoemaking.

Provided millions for community government initiatives ranging from school reconstruction, irrigation system rehabilitation, public building rehabilitation, women?s initiatives, and communications systems to enable the Kabul government to connect to the provinces. These small grants give thousands of jobs to Afghans across the country and show immediate peace dividends to the populace.

Funds bakeries that employ widows and provide heavily subsidized bread to Afghanistan's urban poor. At least 250,000 people were assisted in 2002.


and so many more things are being done there......

 

[BarneyFife]

That is all fine and dandy but I'm not into reading articles about printing textbooks and paving roads. I'm into reality. I saw a documentary and the whole country is a mess. It is still run by warlords. . The taliban is making a comeback Link And women still are treated like scum. I'll repeat it again. When the president of Afghanistan only controls Kabul and is also afraid to leave Kabul, then we have a problem.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
That is all fine and dandy but I'm not into reading articles about printing textbooks and paving roads. I'm into reality. I saw a documentary and the whole country is a mess. It is still run by warlords. . The taliban is making a comeback Link And women still are treated like scum. I'll repeat it again. When the president of Afghanistan only controls Kabul and is also afraid to leave Kabul, then we have a problem.

You are not reading the link, you are only reading the bad news.
I am not sure how you can pave a 750 mile long road employing thousand of afgans if you only control kabul.

I will not claim that afgahnistan is in perfect condition, but I will not claim it is in complete disarray and sinking downward either.

 

[Zebo]

Boy this krauthammer sounds like a real Nazi: Been doing a little reading of his articles and don't think I've seen seen a more slavish supporter of hegemony writing in Us papers. BTW townhall is a ultra rightwing org... I hae no problem with that If you don't mind me posting stories from my socialist sites.

Fall of USSR:
"Henceforth, the United States would build nuclear weapons, both offensive and defensive, to suit its needs?regardless of what others, particularly the Russians, thought. Sure, there would be consultation?no need to be impolite. Humble unilateralism, the oxymoron that best describes this approach, requires it: Be nice, be understanding. But, in the end, be undeterred.?

The US should ?unashamedly laying down the rules of world order and being prepared to enforce them.?

Re: Liberia and ragging on liberals for thier opposition to Iraq but questioning the administrations double standard:
"the US Army is'nt a missionary service but a defender of US interests"

Re Europeans on Liberia:
"?America will share the burden with them if they share the burden with us where we need it. And that means peacekeepers in Iraq.?

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

I think enough people have debunked this one, so I'm just going to throw in my .02. Afghanistan has been a debatable success at best. It's widely known that the only place where we have a strong foothold is Kabul, and I don't think we're going to get popular support throughout the country as long as people perceive Karzai to be our puppet. Which he is. Iraq... well we've argued this one to death. Israel/Pal: The unabashadly pro-Israel stance of the US gov. will never allow us to be honest brokers and the Israeli's know that the buck stops at them. We'll never pressure them more than they are willing to go, even if that is not very far. The road map is a good start and I commend the admin for taking the initiative. However, when I see Israel stalling on key issues like settlements and more recently cordoning off East Jerusalem.. well, frankly I think the road map will fail. Atleast there has been a pseudo-pause on the wanton killing on bith sides.

 

[BOBDN]

Where is Osama?

Today, from Reuters, a believable source.

Six Afghan Police Killed in Suspected Taliban Ambush
By REUTERS


Filed at 3:14 a.m. ET

ZABUL PROVINCE, Afghanistan (Reuters) - Six Afghan policemen were killed in an ambush by suspected Taliban and al Qaeda guerrillas in the southern province of Helmand at the weekend, a provincial official said on Monday.

beloved patriot Mohammad Wali, spokesman for the governor of Helmand, told Reuters the policemen were on patrol in Helmand's Girishk district late on Sunday when their vehicle came under attack from rocket-propelled grenades and automatic rifles.

The attack occurred not far from a district in neighboring Kandahar province where five police officers were killed in a similar attack earlier this month.

Wali blamed the attack on guerrillas from the former Taliban regime ousted in 2001 and their al Qaeda allies.

``We have no doubt that the attack was the work of Taliban and al Qaeda people,'' he told Reuters by telephone.

The attack followed word from a Taliban official that the group's elusive leader, Mullah Mohammad Omar, had approved a new deputy for the south on Saturday to assist a notorious commander suffering from wounds, and ordered him to intensify attacks on U.S. and government forces.

Ten days ago, eight Afghan government soldiers were killed in an attack by suspected Taliban in the southeastern province of Khost.

A series of suspected Taliban attacks elsewhere in the south the weekend before last wounded five American and four Italian members of the 11,500-strong international coalition pursuing Taliban and al Qaeda fighters.

The U.S. military said U.S.-led coalition forces killed up to 24 suspected Taliban on July 19 after guerrillas attacked a coalition convoy near Spin Boldak on the Pakistani border.

More than 100 government soldiers, police and civilians have been killed or wounded in attacks since the start of the year across the south, the main Taliban bastion when it was in power.

On Sunday, the government of southern Zabul province urged U.S. forces in Afghanistan to step up operations against the Taliban there after the guerrillas named a rival provincial governor.

In a further sign of increased Taliban activity, Spin Boldak residents awoke on Sunday to posters threatening death to 25 ``informers'' accused of collaborating with U.S. and government forces.

 

[Lonyo]

There was almost a head towards peace in the early 90's with Clinton in power in Israel/Palestine, until the Israeli leader was assasinated.

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
That is all fine and dandy but I'm not into reading articles about printing textbooks and paving roads. I'm into reality. I saw a documentary and the whole country is a mess. It is still run by warlords. . The taliban is making a comeback Link And women still are treated like scum. I'll repeat it again. When the president of Afghanistan only controls Kabul and is also afraid to leave Kabul, then we have a problem.

You are not reading the link, you are only reading the bad news.
I am not sure how you can pave a 750 mile long road employing thousand of afgans if you only control kabul.

I will not claim that afgahnistan is in perfect condition, but I will not claim it is in complete disarray and sinking downward either.

I see your point charrison, but your public works project examples are no equal to control of the country or real progress to the ultimate objective, a stable democratic state that will "no longer be a threat to regional or US security".

A good example is Vietnam. We spent Billions on building roads, and other infrastructure in South Vietnam quite successfully. When we left, South Vietnam had a well equipped American military, and a pretty good infrastructure largely due to American projects under the Vietnamization program. However, the government never controlled anything outside the cities.

The same us unfortunately true in Afghanistan only worse. The US military has been making deals with Warlords and allowing them to continue to operate with thier private armies, private feuds,and general thugishness since the fall of the Taliban. We do this, because it makes our job easier and we don't want to have to run the risks of taking them out. The Karzai government only controls Kabul, and there just barely.

I'm not saying thier is a magic solution, but it appears we are making the same mistakes we always make in Afghanistan. It would require a dedicated campaign to disarm and disable the warlords in order to truly reform that country. I don't see the US having the will to take such actions however. It is much easier to build some roads etc. and call it a victory.

 

[BOBDN]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
That is all fine and dandy but I'm not into reading articles about printing textbooks and paving roads. I'm into reality. I saw a documentary and the whole country is a mess. It is still run by warlords. . The taliban is making a comeback Link And women still are treated like scum. I'll repeat it again. When the president of Afghanistan only controls Kabul and is also afraid to leave Kabul, then we have a problem.

You are not reading the link, you are only reading the bad news.
I am not sure how you can pave a 750 mile long road employing thousand of afgans if you only control kabul.

I will not claim that afgahnistan is in perfect condition, but I will not claim it is in complete disarray and sinking downward either.

I see your point charrison, but your public works project examples are no equal to control of the country or real progress to the ultimate objective, a stable democratic state that will "no longer be a threat to regional or US security".

A good example is Vietnam. We spent Billions on building roads, and other infrastructure in South Vietnam quite successfully. When we left, South Vietnam had a well equipped American military, and a pretty good infrastructure largely due to American projects under the Vietnamization program. However, the government never controlled anything outside the cities.

The same us unfortunately true in Afghanistan only worse. The US military has been making deals with Warlords and allowing them to continue to operate with thier private armies, private feuds,and general thugishness since the fall of the Taliban. We do this, because it makes our job easier and we don't want to have to run the risks of taking them out. The Karzai government only controls Kabul, and there just barely.

I'm not saying thier is a magic solution, but it appears we are making the same mistakes we always make in Afghanistan. It would require a dedicated campaign to disarm and disable the warlords in order to truly reform that country. I don't see the US having the will to take such actions however. It is much easier to build some roads etc. and call it a victory.

Kinda' like Joni Mitchell's "Big Yellow Taxi" - only we aren't paving paradise. We're blowing up a hell hole then paving it over and calling it paradise.

In the 80's that other bastion of conservative causes, Ronnie Reagan, supported the Afghanis against the USSR. But once they did their job, at great cost in lives, Ronnie boy just abandoned them. Next - the Taliban.

As we are likely to find out again in Iraq you just can't go into someone else's country on false pretences, blow the place up and leave a power vacuum 'cause you don't want to be bothered with that pesky rebuilding. It's expensive and we're facing a half-trillion dollar deficit this year alone.

Better to just make a few new roads and call it a day. Twenty years from now we can go back and do it all again. After all, the people making the decisions aren't in any danger.

 

[mrbentley]

Terms of engagement, Herewith, definitions to keep on top of current events