Does this one quote perfectly explain the 2020 Democratic primary:

[Moonbeam]

"The biggest divide in the party is not between left and center. It's between those who believe once Trump is gone, things will go back to normal, and those that believe that our democracy is under a threat that goes beyond Trump." Quoted in the link below:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/03/politics/joe-biden-democratic-primary-2020/index.html

I think it does. I think American Democracy is dead and that only a political revolution can save us.

I believe that the Republican party if full of good people but who are infected with the fanaticism of certainty, and that only the utter destruction of their party can break that grip on the throat of the nation. They are fanatical believers taking us down a path that will destroy us unless they are stopped. Reasonable politicians like Biden just can't see this. The answer to infection is fever.

Your opinion

By the way, I am all in favor of forgiveness for real repentance, but only one time because some rats simply practice cunning and will gladly try to manipulate people with better natures.

 

[DrunkenSano]

American Democracy has been dead for a while, sadly. This country has been an oligarch, the ultra rich has always held the power while the poor have virtually none. Now there are a few candidates who do want to change the status quo and not just get Trump out of office, but it's up to the people of our country to decide whether they want a systematic change where the 1% won't be able to hoard more than 50% of the country's wealth or if they are okay with that.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes I very much agree. There's no going back after this, our country is fundamentally changed. Our country has operated for the last ~80 years on the assumption that the chief executive would be mentally stable and not nakedly corrupt. It's clear we can't operate on that assumption anymore.

While this is probably not going to happen what the next president really needs to do is put the country before their own power and ambition and work with Congress to move power back from the executive branch to the legislature so that if/when we get another Trump the amount of damage he can do is more limited. That means redoing all emergency declaration legislation, adding additional checks to discretionary funding, etc, etc.

 

[dank69]

American Democracy has been dead for a while, sadly. This country has been an oligarch, the ultra rich has always held the power while the poor have virtually none. Now there are a few candidates who do want to change the status quo and not just get Trump out of office, but it's up to the people of our country to decide whether they want a systematic change where the 1% won't be able to hoard more than 50% of the country's wealth or if they are okay with that.

IMO the biggest mistake Americans make is assuming all politicians are shit and/or that it is impossible to determine whether or not a politician is complete shit. Once you have decided that either of these things are true you are ready to fuck everyone else by making piss poor choices at the ballot box. In reality, it is trivially easy to figure out who is trying to fuck America and who is at least attempting to save it, simply by looking at their voting records.

Of course none of this applies to conservatives or "independents," because they aren't even capable of determining what is real or what isn't, let alone determining what is good for the country or what isn't. But people who aren't afraid to admit in public that they might like an idea a Democrat has at least have a chance. This is why it is important to tar and feather folks who would vote for one Democrat candidate in the general but not another. You can't let stupidity like that go unchallenged.

 

[JTsyo]

"Republican party if full of good people

I think the issue is that for many of them times are changing faster than they can cope. The hope to go back to a time that they understood better. They don't realize that just doesn't happen. When it's our turn it might be worse since the rate of change will probably increase.
Politically I think we have stagnated for too long. The status quo had us as the top country for decades but now we're getting left behind. It's not working any more and we need to adapt to the new world. Even back during Bill Clinton's run he made the point of how we were falling behind.

It is because America has not invested in its people. It is because we have not grown. It is because we’ve had 12 years of trickle-down economics. We’ve gone from first to twelfth in the world in wages. We’ve had four years where we’ve produced no private-sector jobs. Most people are working harder for less money than they were making 10 years ago. It is because we are in the grip of a failed economic theory.

 

[Moonbeam]

IMO the biggest mistake Americans make is assuming all politicians are shit and/or that it is impossible to determine whether or not a politician is complete shit. Once you have decided that either of these things are true you are ready to fuck everyone else by making piss poor choices at the ballot box. In reality, it is trivially easy to figure out who is trying to fuck America and who is at least attempting to save it, simply by looking at their voting records.

Of course none of this applies to conservatives or "independents," because they aren't even capable of determining what is real or what isn't, let alone determining what is good for the country or what isn't. But people who aren't afraid to admit in public that they might like an idea a Democrat has at least have a chance. This is why it is important to tar and feather folks who would vote for one Democrat candidate in the general but not another. You can't let stupidity like that go unchallenged.

What I see is that the reward for voting revolution is that only that can save the country. The risk is that a revolutionary may lose in 2020. There is also the risk that an incrementalist will also lose for just being one. Democrats have all the fun.

 

[thilanliyan]

Even back during Bill Clinton's run he made the point of how we were falling behind.

But St.Reagan di Cali couldn't have been wrong about trickle down!!!

 

[Moonbeam]

I think the issue is that for many of them times are changing faster than they can cope. The hope to go back to a time that they understood better. They don't realize that just doesn't happen. When it's our turn it might be worse since the rate of change will probably increase.
Politically I think we have stagnated for too long. The status quo had us as the top country for decades but now we're getting left behind. It's not working any more and we need to adapt to the new world. Even back during Bill Clinton's run he made the point of how we were falling behind.

Sounds like you might like Yang. I do. I like to imagine that he possesses a rarefied vision of the world that may one day be commonplace. I wonder sometimes if even 2% of the population can actually think.

 

[dank69]

Sounds like you might like Yang. I do. I like to imagine that he possesses a rarefied vision of the world that may one day be commonplace. I wonder sometimes if even 2% of the population can actually think.

Yeah I like what I see from him.

 

[Mai72]

American Democracy has been dead for a while, sadly. This country has been an oligarch, the ultra rich has always held the power while the poor have virtually none. Now there are a few candidates who do want to change the status quo and not just get Trump out of office, but it's up to the people of our country to decide whether they want a systematic change where the 1% won't be able to hoard more than 50% of the country's wealth or if they are okay with that.

Can't do anything about it. The only thing you can control is your actions. I don't know why people focus on the 1%. It's futile. You only have so much energy and willpower in the day. If all I'm doing is focused on what the 1% are doing, how can I get anything done? If all I do is bitch and complain about the 1% I'm giving away too much of my time to something that has ZERO bearing on my life. I can't control what a 70- year old billionaire is going to do. I can control my actions. That's about it.

Even when Trump leaves not much is going to change. The poor will outnumber the wealthy. Opportunities will come and go. The question is "what will you do about your time while you're alive?" Bitch and complain. Or, become a better person. Maybe start a business. Or, get more skills so you can earn a higher income. A higher income means more money saved and invested. In time, you could make a small impact. Live a fullfilling life. Or, will you spend most of your time watching YT videos, playing hours and hours of video games, or just wasting time while complainingn that life isn't fair. Up to you.

 

[dank69]

Can't do anything about it. The only thing you can control is your actions. I don't know why people focus on the 1%. It's futile. You only have so much energy and willpower in the day. If all I'm doing is focused on what the 1% are doing, how can I get anything done? If all I do is bitch and complain about the 1% I'm giving away too much of my time to something that has ZERO bearing on my life. I can't control what a 70- year old billionaire is going to do. I can control my actions. That's about it.

Even when Trump leaves not much is going to change. The poor will outnumber the wealthy. Opportunities will come and go. The question is "what will you do about your time while you're alive?" Bitch and complain. Or, become a better person. Maybe start a business. Or, get more skills so you can earn a higher income. A higher income means more money saved and invested. In time, you could make a small impact. Live a fullfilling life. Or, will you spend most of your time watching YT videos, playing hours and hours of video games, or just wasting time while complainingn that life isn't fair. Up to you.

These things are not mutually exclusive. Additionally it does no good to start a new business only to have a billionaire you don't want to worry about use his billions to force you into bankruptcy so that he can capture your market. Yes, do what you can to better your situation. Nobody is arguing against that, but we also need to stop and reverse a system that is increasingly rigged against anyone that doesn't already have billions.

 

[ivwshane]

I don't know what you mean by revolution but if you are referring to some sort of armed conflict you are delusional.

Our democracy is most certainly under attack. Its being attack by outsiders and by people who think like you who think all politicians are bad and can't be trusted. Those that are heavily armed are the ones who want a revolution and their actions are meant to feed your anxiety and distrust of American institutions. Your ideologies might be different but your end goal is the same.

What you fear is yourself, someone so complacent and misinformed that they are willing to give it all up and start over. I've got news for you, starting over means might makes right and I'm pretty sure your might is pretty weak.

Instead what you should be looking to is people and politicians who believe in the institutions we've created and the rules and laws we've made but who also realizes that flaws need to be addressed and fixed. Look to those that see the problem and have solutions and a path forward to enable those solutions.

No country or government is perfect but those that pursue perfection will last longer than those that become complacent.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

I see many similarities to the 1968 elections and the 2020 elections, no major sea change, no major difference from then and now. The biggest difference would be that the media is no longer even trying to pretend they are neutral observers and commentators on social and political events. I'm seriously looking forward to the Democratic Convention in 2020, i doubt if the first ballot will give us a winner and i expect violence from the usual lefty suspects.

 

[Jhhnn]

Meh. I'm sure lots of people have claimed that democracy was dead at various times in our history.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yes I very much agree. There's no going back after this, our country is fundamentally changed. Our country has operated for the last ~80 years on the assumption that the chief executive would be mentally stable and not nakedly corrupt. It's clear we can't operate on that assumption anymore.

While this is probably not going to happen what the next president really needs to do is put the country before their own power and ambition and work with Congress to move power back from the executive branch to the legislature so that if/when we get another Trump the amount of damage he can do is more limited. That means redoing all emergency declaration legislation, adding additional checks to discretionary funding, etc, etc.

These seem like worthwhile objectives to me but I wonder if we could have ever elected a president like Trump were it not for money being speech in politics. This also focuses tightly on one branch and I think all three are infected or functionally dead.

 

[Commodus]

I don't think US democracy is dead, but it is on life support. I suspect the next Democrat to take office will probably spend much of their early tenure erasing Trump's many mistakes (undoing discriminatory bans, cancelling "the wall," reinstating vital regulations, lifting censorship of scientists), so those immediate issues will be resolved. The ship won't necessarily sink.

The tricky part is what comes next. Simply speaking, there would be a lot on the plate of any incoming administration even if you don't account for those policy changes. They'd likely want to institute stricter checks and balances to prevent further Trump-style abuses of power before they can even begin to think of fundamental, long-term reforms... oh, and they have to run the country, too.

Honestly, I don't see any deeper changes taking place for a long time, and that's assuming they get full control or a non-obstructionist Republican party (full control is far more likely). It may take fundamental demographic changes or shifts in political party values.

 

[Moonbeam]

Mai72: Can't do anything about it.

Mo: What exactly do you mean by can't do anything. This is a thread about the 2020 Democratic nomination process and your opinion as to whether it should be about big change or incremental change by restoring a time when democrats and republicans could work across the isle. It's about what your personal opinion is not whether it will change anything. Your flipping it over into this futility rant strikes me as complete insanity.

Ma: The only thing you can control is your actions. I don't know why people focus on the 1%. It's futile. You only have so much energy and willpower in the day. If all I'm doing is focused on what the 1% are doing, how can I get anything done? If all I do is bitch and complain about the 1% I'm giving away too much of my time to something that has ZERO bearing on my life. I can't control what a 70- year old billionaire is going to do. I can control my actions. That's about it.

Mo: Hehe, as I said, you sound nuts. None of this has the slightest thing to do with whether the election on the democratic side will be about or what kind of change you personally feel is needed. I just asked about that. I didn't ask you to suck your thumb.

Ma: Even when Trump leaves not much is going to change. The poor will outnumber the wealthy. Opportunities will come and go. The question is "what will you do about your time while you're alive?" Bitch and complain. Or, become a better person. Maybe start a business. Or, get more skills so you can earn a higher income. A higher income means more money saved and invested. In time, you could make a small impact. Live a fullfilling life. Or, will you spend most of your time watching YT videos, playing hours and hours of video games, or just wasting time while complainingn that life isn't fair. Up to you.

Mo: I'm going to do things like ask people what they feel is at stake in the democratic primary and how they feel it should go. Long ago I fought a battle with empty hopelessness, some call the Nothing, and won. You are still stressed out, obviously, about fulfilling your life. I won the very moment I gave up. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

All @DrunkenSano did, seems to me, was state some facts.

 

[Jhhnn]

I see many similarities to the 1968 elections and the 2020 elections, no major sea change, no major difference from then and now. The biggest difference would be that the media is no longer even trying to pretend they are neutral observers and commentators on social and political events. I'm seriously looking forward to the Democratic Convention in 2020, i doubt if the first ballot will give us a winner and i expect violence from the usual lefty suspects.

If you mean that Trump is tearing the country apart like the Vietnam war I'd have to agree. He's def the biggest mistake we've made since then, no doubt.

 

[Moonbeam]

ivwshane: I don't know what you mean by revolution but if you are referring to some sort of armed conflict you are delusional.

M: I think it should be rather clear, since I have said this many times, the revolution I am talking about is getting money out of politics, returning democracy to the people rather than the influence of the wealthy.

i: Our democracy is most certainly under attack. Its being attack by outsiders and by people who think like you who think all politicians are bad and can't be trusted. Those that are heavily armed are the ones who want a revolution and their actions are meant to feed your anxiety and distrust of American institutions. Your ideologies might be different but your end goal is the same.

M: But I don't think all politicians are bad and trusted nor do I understand how you came to think I do so I am left with the feeling you are quite mad.

i: What you fear is yourself, someone so complacent and misinformed that they are willing to give it all up and start over. I've got news for you, starting over means might makes right and I'm pretty sure your might is pretty weak.

M: Yes, quite mad if you really think you are talking to me. I have always felt it is easy to destroy what it takes centuries to build and that humanity has an unconscious death wish, that the enemy is us. Perhaps what you fear is knowing that's true of you. I know it's true of me. You can't change what you don't know you unconsciously feel, but you can glimpse it's actions when you are aware it is there as part of your unconscious motivation. Knowledge, as they say, can set you free, or begin the process.

i: Instead what you should be looking to is people and politicians who believe in the institutions we've created and the rules and laws we've made but who also realizes that flaws need to be addressed and fixed. Look to those that see the problem and have solutions and a path forward to enable those solutions.

M: Don't mind me if I do. I'm one of those, go for the big change, Democrats, those with a message that says money has to be taken out of politics.

i: No country or government is perfect but those that pursue perfection will last longer than those that become complacent.

M: Then you should board my train, you know, the freedom train.

 

[ivwshane]

Your use of revolution aside, we are apparently already on the same train

 

[BoomerD]

Our politicians (both sides) have sold "We the People " to "We the Corporations."

We the People have been fucked over so badly for so long, the only way to regain our power will be a violent revolution...and that will completely crash our economy as those with the money will simply take their bucks (and businesses) to a different country.

 

[Sunburn74]

Our politicians (both sides) have sold "We the People " to "We the Corporations."

We the People have been fucked over so badly for so long, the only way to regain our power will be a violent revolution...and that will completely crash our economy as those with the money will simply take their bucks (and businesses) to a different country.

Revolution seems a long stretch. Why don't we start with a few amendments? Or dare I say a constitutional convention?

 

[Jhhnn]

Our politicians (both sides) have sold "We the People " to "We the Corporations."

We the People have been fucked over so badly for so long, the only way to regain our power will be a violent revolution...and that will completely crash our economy as those with the money will simply take their bucks (and businesses) to a different country.

The New Deal didn't involve violent revolution. We need a new New Deal.

 

[BoomerD]

Revolution seems a long stretch. Why don't we start with a few amendments? Or dare I say a constitutional convention?

First, you need 2/3 of both houses to pass any amendment, then you need 3/4 of the states to ratify said proposed amendment. Our current political system won't ever allow any amendment that would (a) take the money out of politics, or (b) take the "power" away from their corporate masters and return it to the people.

Those are just two of the things we need to start with to regain our power as "We the People" instead of being "We the sheep."

 

[Moonbeam]

Meh. I'm sure lots of people have claimed that democracy was dead at various times in our history.

It would be interesting to count those in that camp and those who claim that everything is coming up roses.