Does this make sense: Maybe both republicans and democrats are right?

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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It's almost a trope to say "both sides are wrong" but what if they are both right?

It seems to me that, fundamentally, a mentality of self-reliance and hard work is very useful if one wants to do well in society: things that mitigate this sort of attitude perpetuate an impoverished mindset.

It also seems to me that every system has the perfect design for the outcomes that it gets: failing to recognize and address marginalization and repression in society is not only problematic morally but also because it limits potential benefits.

So why can't they both be right? It seems clear that the first is focused on success within the existing system and the second is focused on improving the existing system: when we try to ignore improving the existing system because of principles from the first we're just as faulty in our reasoning as when discourage self-reliance and hard work while working against the alienation inherent in the system.

Does this make sense?
 

v-600

Senior member
Nov 1, 2010
488
3
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Well surely both teams could work together so that both win :p

Objectively is it better for you to have little as long as someone else has less, or for you both to have more?

Subjectively?
 

PhatoseAlpha

Platinum Member
Apr 10, 2005
2,131
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Assuming you're talking about U.S. economics, I believe there's significant reason to question whether or not the existing system actually encourages a mindset of self-reliance and hard work, or if it's even capable of doing so.

That's not actually it's purpose, after all. It's purpose is to generate maximum total wealth through efficient use of resources. That doesn't always align with rewarding hard work or self-reliance. Indeed, I'd wager it seldom does - other factors, including a huge dollop of simple luck - are more important.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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DixyCrat:

First, both parties have SOME 'right' to them. But a far more important and accurate statement is that it's nowhere close to an equal amount - avoid false equivalency.

The problem you should appreciate about this is the fact that so much is based on straw men.

You say 'well, self-reliance is a good thing' - because you're buying into the Republican straw man that they're the party of self-reliance, and Democrats then must be against it.

That's a useful propaganda technique, and gets them a lot of votes by less careful voters. You can see the same technique on all kinds of issues. Are you for background gun checks? Oh then you are anti-gun! See how that works? Forget your decades of gun ownership (a majority of NRA members support universal background checks) - if you disagree with the NRA on the issue, you're 'anti-gun'.

The same thing is seen with Republicans 'strong on defense' propaganda. By implication that means Democrats are 'weak on defense', right? It doesn't matter if the ACTUAL issue is supporting an absurdly corrupt and excessive set of military contracts, or a wrong war, or our sponsoring death squads or terrorists (as in Central America in the past), or torture of prisoners - the point is, you have to take the right's position to support any of those activities, if you don't, you're anti-military or 'weak on defense'.

Democrats can be argued to be the part for self-reliance. But it should be noted that government programs that are good for society - from big things like investing in research to projects like dams or the Tennessee Valley Authority to safety nets - can be good ideas and good for people.

The whole 'self-reliance' phrase is abused by Republicans to hide their real agenda simply to have more plutocracy - more for the rich, less for everyone else - and to 'blame the victim'. In recent decades, the most wealthy have gotten far wealthier while nearly all other Americans have been flat or worse off. This is largely a direct result of policy choices that affect the distribution of wealth - a phrase only used when it's done in one direction, not when it's done to help the rich.

Remember our country once had laws against workers organizing, against unions, against strikes - and had great poverty for workers. 'Self-reliance' said if they don't like it, save your pennies and buy your own company - a lot of nonsense to disguise any opposition to helping the workers get a bigger share as pretending not to be anti-worker, just for 'self-reliance'.

I tell an anecdote that makes this clear - it involved 'retail politics'. Once at a country fair, Democrats and Republicans each had boots, with signs saying 'you're a Democrat/Republican if...' with lots of things like 'you love your country'. They were designed to get people to say, well, ya, I love my country and those other things, so I must be a Republican. Nevermind the things had little to do with the actual party behavior - it was recruiting.

So you're going to get it wrong if you just consider the rhetoric as you do here with 'self-reliance' - sounds good - instead of the ACTUAL policies. Do you think at this time of a massive increase in inequality as the minimum wage leaves people in poverty while the rich are shooting up in wealth, that the minimum wage should be increased? Republican filibuster to stop that - so that's a 'real issue' for you to decide if you agree with Republicans, not the propaganda about 'self-reliance'.

Remember in the 2012 election how Paul Ryan had his staff force their way into a closed soup kitchen to get a picture of him washing an already clean plate - why? Because their policies are actually so harmful to the poor, but that's not politically helpful, that he has to try to maintain the lie that he's actually not anti-poor - that's why his statements of policies that would make the poor far worse off are framed as 'solutions to help the poor, and with pictures like the soup kitchen, to fool the less careful voter.

The problem with your question - maybe both parties are right - is false equivalence. It ignores the vast differences in why one might be better than the other.

And that's not very helpful in people understanding the issues of the parties.

You're right, that the rhetoric/propaganda of both sides has some merit - but that's pretty irrelevant to the policies which are more important.

The propaganda people are very good at 'spinning' the issues and fooling people. A desire for groups to have nothing is easily disguised as concern for those groups.

So the discussion should not be about the propaganda, but the policies and agendas and interests represented.

A couple more examples to make this more clear.

In the civil rights fight, opponents rarely said they for what they actually were for - continued discrimination and segregation. Instead, they said they were for 'states' rights' - as if the issue they were concerned about was only the legal federalism question - and 'law and order', to let opposition to scary protests and riots be channeled into opposition to civil rights. This misrepresented the issue as not being what it was - for or against equal rights - but as things like 'pro-riot and anti-riot'.

It'd be easy to say 'both sides were right' there too, when that was really not right.

A second example - for decades of tobacco 'controversy', Republicans who got huge donations from the tobacco industry fought laws against tobacco and argued 'the science isn't complete' on the issue. They'd try to turn it into issues like 'personal freedom', when the real issue was more simply about, a large industry wanted to protect its profits that killed so many people, and they were willing to pay politicians for protecting their industry, and Republicans were willing to take that money and fight for them.

You'd never see Republicans say they were for all the harm of tobacco - only things like how 'they wanted to wait for the science to be settled'.

Now who can argue against not rushing into laws when the science isn't clear? So based on the rhetoric you could say 'both sides are right', talking about the Republicans stated desires to get good science or protect personal freedom - but those weren't really the issues, which were more about the harm of tobacco and the power of the industry that made billions from it to protect their profits.

Those are just examples of the need to not discuss 'both sides are right' based on the propaganda, but on the actual policies.

That's when it becomes clear that that reasonable-sounding position is really just propaganda for a terrible policy.

One last example to make it even clearer - that's why groups pandering to anti-gay bigots by opposing gay marriage rarely say that's their issue, but instead say they're 'for defending marriage' and inventing how gay marriage is an 'attack' that will 'destroy' the institution. That lets the people who are bigoted not have to defend that ugly position, but simply be 'pro-marriage', and who can argue with that (except some divorced people)?

That leads to the nonsensical discussion that 'both sides are right, one is for equal rights, and other just wants to defend marriage'. No, that's not the issue.

One side is for equal rights, and the other is for unjustified discrimination. Both sides aren't right.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Assuming you're talking about U.S. economics, I believe there's significant reason to question whether or not the existing system actually encourages a mindset of self-reliance and hard work, or if it's even capable of doing so.

That's not actually it's purpose, after all. It's purpose is to generate maximum total wealth through efficient use of resources. That doesn't always align with rewarding hard work or self-reliance. Indeed, I'd wager it seldom does - other factors, including a huge dollop of simple luck - are more important.

Its purpose isn't really to generate maximum total wealth. You might think it should be, it's a nice theory, but it's not. It's about serving the interests of groups with power. If that means generating more wealth, fine. And if that means not generating more wealth, that's fine also. It's just about different interests fighting it out to get the policies that benefit them - unfortunately few politicians are representing 'the good of the country overall', rather they're representing the interests they have sided with. Sometimes a group's interests and the national interest might overlap - but that's more happy coincidence than anything. Countless examples of politicians hurting the economy for political benefit can be found.

Just this week, there was a story about Senate candidate Scott Brown, taking an energy bill that was so good - increasing employment while cutting costs - that it had broad bi-partisan support even in this terrible political culture, and passed the House. Brown, for the simple reason that he wanted to deny his opponent a 'win' on the issue she could use in her campaign, told Republican leadership he wanted the bill blocked for that reason, and it was.

You can talk all day about the theory of representation and maximum wealth and all, but that's not the real agenda.

The financial crash of 2008 is largely the story of short-term interests overcoming any concern for the 'maximum wealth' for the society overall - and hurting it. And it's not a new story - that's the norm of how economies behave, through US history and other nations as well.

The rhetoric about self-reliance has one purpose - it's propaganda that's cover for an agenda to make the poor poorer, for the benefit of the rich - a way to sell those policies.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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Craig: Thank you for the thoughtful response, I quite enjoyed it and may well take a number of your ideas without crediting you :)

Do you think that there exists no such equally valid deconstruction of the democrat perspective?


I once watched the republicans argue for how we needed to leave led in gasoline because it would be too expensive to remove it. On the other hand, the policy of packing impoverished people on top of each other in the center of cities has lead to a trend toward the extinction of the urban population.


You're right, that the rhetoric/propaganda of both sides has some merit - but that's pretty irrelevant to the policies which are more important.
I was taking 'retail politics' level rhetoric at face-valid because that's what people are intending to vote for; I see the elite in parties as hopelessly plutocratic and the base of voters in both parties as essentially anti-plutocratic.

Perhaps I'm too cynical.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,134
6,612
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I think The people of the world are deeply frustrated that ordinary people struggle endlessly and a small percent have so much. I see this everyday in the obligatory tourist attractions I visit, endless palaces and adornments housed in museums, or are the museums themselves. I see no hope this will ever change so long as human self hate attempts to mask itself by visible expressions of power, money converted into ego manifestations.

It seems to me that humanity is trained to this state of being. At the Eiffel Tower there were soldiers walking in groups carrying alutomatic rifles. Obey and maintain order, or else.

Perhaps, one day, we will see a revolution, but what I see is humanity subdued and asleep.

I see only hope for the individual. Only the mind can be inwardly free. Only the self can free the self from ego via surrender and self abnegation. Only the individual cal live in the world but not be of it. Only wisdom can free the self of attachment to things. But everybody is looking for Santa Clause and chasing the dream that the dollar can make you free.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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No ideology, which is inherently subjective, can ever be "right".

We have objective truth that we live in regarding subjective social-constructions all the time. For example marriage and bankruptcy.

In this case the ideologies espoused by either side offer an accurate assessment of something of pragmatic value within differing social contexts.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,134
6,612
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Does this make sense?

Perhaps you did not have anything to say to my post above because it had no stated tie in with what you posted. So let me expand a bit on what I said to clarify why I expressed what I did.

What you posted makes perfect sense. But I made assumptions about why you posted it, that you are looking for truth you can communicate that can bridge the gap between liberal and conservative thinking. I see an attempt to offer a meeting ground that can make sense to both sides. In short, I see you as a hopeful seeker who wishes to use the power of truth to join minds, to point up to something higher.

I was trying to say, as an lover of idealism myself, that I have no faith in the power of reason because I see a world full of programmed souls who can't be appealed to on that level. That is only for the rare individual truth seeker in my opinion. It is wasted on the rest.

I see humanity as fundamentally antithetical and inimical to reason, unconsciously motivated not to know.

The way out of that is only for those who are deeply and powerfully motivated by pain to escape this kind of mental prison, or tremendously curious about self learning.

I would suggest that people in general can't use truth. Instead, I see them in need of de programming. That, I think, is where effort is needed. when you read P & N you read hundreds of opinions from people who haven't the slightest idea they don't know anything. Until they can see that, nothing can reach them.
 
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sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
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Since both parties are essentially the same, they are either both right or both wrong. So it simply comes down to whether you are one of them, or are not one of them.

Do you believe in using borrowed dollars to buy votes? If so, then you're one of them.

Do you believe in constantly debasing the currency in an attempt to hide the massive bloat and graft created by the crony atmosphere? If so, then you're one of them.

Do you believe that a government which wastes 2-5 dollars for every dollar it allocates should be given any future money at all? If so, then you're one of them.

Do you believe that gay marriage is a more important issue than millions of jobs being exported, corruption in every agency, senseless wars against harmless plants, or any number of real issues that are generally ignored? If so, then you're one of them.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Wow, a true real P&N thread for a change.

I'll have to go back and read it all, I'm kinda a Blue Dog myself type.

Bipartisanship used to work, but government has become even more borked beyond that point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipartisanship

Let's be clear what changed, though. One of the two sides radicalized to an extreme.

It's as if the Republican party of the 50's were replaced by the John Birch Society and Ted Cruz having the visibility of Joe McCarty.

(That's closer to what happened than some realize - the biggest single force in American politics is the Koch brothers, whose father co-founded the John Birch Society. The story of American politics since the 1970's is more than anything the growth of the radical right like the Kochs and other right-wing tycoons, with a fascist-light/form of libertarian ideology.)

The Republicans have basically embraced the idea that maximum obstructionism is the goal, and the worse the country does under Obama the better for them politically.

There's not really any length they won't go for this. We saw it with the abuse of the impeachment power with Clinton and the absurd talk of wanting to impeach Obama, and the unprecedented level of obstructionism, of do-nothing, of filibuster abuse - over 500 this term. All the while, looking for any attack on Obama, saying the small ways he's worked around the obstructionism with the use of executive power - something they championed under Bush as the 'Unitary Executive' - is abuse despite Obama having the fewest executive orders of any recent president (if not any president, I haven't checked further back), not because it's accurate, but because it threatens to get a bit around their obstructionism.

(Edit: I'd meant to support my 'they'll go to any lengths' comment with a reference to the 19 right-wing states' completely political refusal to accept free-to-them expanded Medicaid, which will kill thousands of their own citizens, far more than 9/11 did. They know that, and choose the policy with that price in American lives. So what won't they do for politics?)

The old, bi-partisan, more moderate Republican party has basically been driven out of office by this new right - made of two factions, the 'far right' but still most mainstreat party that's left after the moderate purge, and the even more extremist tea party made of dupes of the billionares' agenda.

The old Republican party could vote for the civil rights bills, could support the creation of an EPA - the new radicals are very different from that. And it's not as if the old party wasn't really quite right-wing - the same party that opposed Social Security, opposed Medicare, for that matter opposed entering WWII.

The old Republican party - like Democrats - practiced some 'fiscal responsbility'; the new Republican party either shoots up the deficit or demands radical reforms as the alternative which would shift our country to even greater levels of inequality - like a 'flat tax', or 'abolish the IRS' - than we've ever seen, far more than even our current record levels.

So, yes, 'government is broke', but that's not equally the fault of both parties.

This week is the 50th anniversary of Lyndon Johnson laying out his great vision of the Great Society, with increases in civil rights, healthcare, consumer protection, education, a safety net and much more which was arguably the best change indirection our country has seen, with the most productive Congress in history - in contrast to the current austerity failures shifting the country's wealth from the people to the top few, and the least productive Congress in history.

The American people are not very aware of the way austerity looks, they've had protection from that, but it's the direction one of the two sides now wants to take the country.

The ironic result? As the far-right - the enemies of democracy, which is designed to be good for the masses by giving the people artificial power they wouldn't have if only money rules - takes over government, they're able to persuade the people to become anti-government, and give up the only chance they have for improving things.

A Supreme Court Justice said in the 1930's IIRC, you can have democracy or great concentration of wealth, but not both. It's a lesson we're seeing in action.

Things have been shifting very far to the right, where we're only one election away from even more radical changes, where the very power to reign in the wealthy can be stripped from the people, limiting them to harmless legislation but not addressing the distribution of wealth and power in the country.

You might expect a backlash, but it often works the opposite - as the right gains dominance, it becomes 'the new normal' and the old 'left' is as forgotten as communism.

The lack of 'bi-partisanship' lies squarely on the right-wing and the voters who vote for them.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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sm625, I disagree with about all of your post.

Since both parties are essentially the same, they are either both right or both wrong. So it simply comes down to whether you are one of them, or are not one of them.

No, actually, while they have some small things in common, they're extremely different.

I can see why you say what you say - because some on the right note the hypocrisy and contradiction between things like 'say you hate the deficit, but run it up' while actually being the group who runs it up terribly, and why you therefore want to lump 'Republicans' with Democrats as all 'the same', but you are distorting the facts horribly by doing so.

One basic error people of your inclination often make is misunderstanding the Democrats.

You also make basic errors of policy, which are hard for you to learn when you think everyone who disagrees is a monster who only wants massive government waste.

The thing is, you are unwittingly being a servant to the billionares, who only have an anti-government agenda because that will transfer power from the people to them.

Do you believe in using borrowed dollars to buy votes? If so, then you're one of them.

This is you distorting the issue of government policy, trying to turn everything the government does that benefits the people into 'buying votes'.

Hold on, are you confused about the basic idea that government is SUPPOSED to do things good for the people, and that's a legitimate reason to vote for them?

Society had a 90% elder poverty rate - the government introduced Social Security. That nearly eliminated elder poverty, and deserves votes - it's not 'buying votes' wrongly.

Society had a big problem with people going bankrupt trying to pay for medical care, especially for the older citizens - Medicare was a government effort to help with that problem, hugely successful, and legitimately deserves public support - it's not 'buying votes' wrongly.

The poor benefit from some government programs that help meet basic needs and increase some opportunity - the right likes to prey on people's hatred of those 'takers', to use the far-right ideology's 'takers and makers' false economic ideology, instead of the American values of 'we're in this together' and helping the poor being a good thing.

Ironically, you know what you rarely hear from people or your inclination, the libertarian types? The ways what you accuse the left of 'buying votes' that are actually done by the right. Massive giveaways to the most wealthy in yet more tax cuts which are all borrowed and added to the public debt when they are already skyrocketing in wealth, corporate tax cuts, excessive spending on the wasteful Republican industries like the military (which Romeny/Ryan wanted to hugely increase) - those are 'buying votes' for the more wealthy.

Promising 'de-regulation' that lets unproductive Wall Street schemes run rampant and drain wealth from the economy to benefit a few - that's 'vote-buying' (and on that one issue, it's an unusual case where both parties are guilty - but only about half the Democrats, while the Progressive caucus is far better, but nearly all Republicans are doing it).

Do you believe in constantly debasing the currency in an attempt to hide the massive bloat and graft created by the crony atmosphere? If so, then you're one of them.

This is over-simplifying the issue of deficit spending to the point where it can't be discussed.

It hints at the far-right agenda for a 'gold standard' as well, a bad idea.

Do you believe that a government which wastes 2-5 dollars for every dollar it allocates should be given any future money at all? If so, then you're one of them.

Made-up false 'facts' just hyping anti-government hysteria. And the answer - yes, it should. The alternative is to not get done important and useful things.

The anarchists and nihilists are fine with that sort of return to cavemen and local warlords in a primitive and impoverished society - see Somalia - but no one sensible is. You simply don't understand the effects of the policies you advocate - you have a very wrong idea about waste and what really works and you make bad policy demands based on the false views.

Do you believe that gay marriage is a more important issue than millions of jobs being exported, corruption in every agency, senseless wars against harmless plants, or any number of real issues that are generally ignored? If so, then you're one of them.

It's not a choice. Gay marriage is a very important civil right, and it doesn't come at the expense of millions of jobs being exported.

By the way, there a bill to get rid of the tax incentives for companies to export jobs - Republicans filibustered it, killing it. Are you holding them accountable?

'Corruption in every agency' is the statement of a child who is deranged against government, wanting to destroy it all, hyperbole. There is some 'corruption', some 'waste' everywhere, in and out of government, but it's hyped and demagogued by the people who REALLY want to screw you. You should grow up enough to distinguish between the imperfections in any large organization, and larger and worse problems that need to be addressed, not treat them the same and call for anarchy.

The bottom line is a more democratic and egalitarian society versus one with pluotocracy and poverty for most. One shift in the wrong direction there was the 2008 crash - everyone lost a huge amount of money - the middle class up to half the wealth of many - and yet the large economic recovery has had 95% of the increases go to the top 1%. Know what that is? A redistribution of wealth from the bulk of Americans to the top 1% - which they are using to further accelerate even more transfer of wealth. And you are supporting them.

Even if you don't understand you are.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
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I vote Craig234 for President, personally.

Can I be Vice-President ? We'd shake things up a bit.

He he.
 
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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Government is the enemy and not your friend. The purpose of government is to control and to enslave the little people. More government does not solve anything, it just makes more government that you and I have to pay for.

I would rather a church or some non-profit like the united way or the red cross or the salvation army help people. The reason is that these people at least help people. They only ask for donations, they don't force you to donate or hold you hostage or steal your house if you cant pay. They also don't make your currency worthless or raise prices at the gocery store.

A Church teaches people to have hope and pray to god for strength; however, a government teaches people to have despair and turns them into slaves of the government.
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,307
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Government is the enemy and not your friend.
The government is neither a enemy nor a friend. It is a tool used to form and protect societies.

The purpose of government is to control and to enslave the little people.
No, the purpose of a government is to protect the society it was formed to create.

More government does not solve anything, it just makes more government that you and I have to pay for.
There are literally ten's of thousands of things that government has solved because it had money to do what was needed. The fact that you have clean water to drink is a testament to the things a government can solve.

They only ask for donations, they don't force you to donate or hold you hostage or steal your house if you cant pay.
Only because there is a government more powerful then them keeping them in check. Traditionally these sort of organization have not been so nice.

A Church teaches people to have hope and pray to god for strength
And if not held in check by a powerful government kill you for praying the wrong way, steals your land in the name of their god, and makes arbitrary rules like 'no eating meat on Friday' that when they are not watched by a more powerful organization practically always end in 'Or DIE!'.

Your view of humanity is extremely naive. Anytime a group of people come together a government of some sort always forms. The only question is will it form by a agreement of the majority or by the force of a few.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Government is the enemy and not your friend. The purpose of government is to control and to enslave the little people. More government does not solve anything, it just makes more government that you and I have to pay for.

I would rather a church or some non-profit like the united way or the red cross or the salvation army help people. The reason is that these people at least help people. They only ask for donations, they don't force you to donate or hold you hostage or steal your house if you cant pay. They also don't make your currency worthless or raise prices at the gocery store.

A Church teaches people to have hope and pray to god for strength; however, a government teaches people to have despair and turns them into slaves of the government.

Piasabird, you have basic misunderstandings of power, government, and oppression.

So let's toss out the usual words that keep you from understanding the issue, and discuss some basics.

Isn't the issue basically, how 'free' is the 'average person' - free in terms of how he's constrained by law, by force, by enslavement, by poverty, and such?

Human history tends to be filled with oligarchy - a few rich and powerful, and everyone else serving them, by producing food and wealth, serving in the military, and so on.

Even the greatest people not among those few served them - Da Vinci, Mozart, Shakespeare, these people had 'sponors' basically who chose to fund their activities.

So let's take a few examples of your freedoms being infringed from modern history.

The largest communist powers are cited for good reason as restricting freedom - there wasn't exactly 'free speech'. Fascism didn't give a lot of freedom to people, as it glorified the state and demanded the individual serve it. Poverty has great restrictions on freedom - whether among the poor in the US or the far poorer countries in the world. In 1900, the average wage in the US was $10,000 adjusted for inflation, the right for unions to try to raise wages illegal - that was less free for most.

So how does democracy fit into this? When our country was founded, as was the norm, wealth and power went together - the English nobility had the wealth and the power.

Democracy was a radical idea - it technically had some roots in ancient Greece and had pretty much been forgotten since - when it was reborn as the idea of empowering the 'average person', rather than simply having that system where the few in nobility rule, and that's that.

Democracy said that the right way for government to work is for government to have *the consent of the governed* - radical stuff contrasted with how things worked.

The way it spread the new 'redistribution' of power was not by making everyone equally wealthy - but by introducing a new currency, the 'vote', of which the poor man and rich man each received one. It was an artificial distribution of power to take power away from the extremely concentrated wealth, and spread it out evenly. Its whole purpose was to reduce the power of 'the few' and to make the average person 'in charge' of the government and society - increasing his freedom.

(Of course, 'the vote' had existed in the growing role of parliament in England for centuries, but not like this.)

One thing to note historically is that extremes of wealth did not exist when the US was formed. Washington was at the top of American wealth with his nice home in Mount Vernon and some slaves. It was a time when 'that guy having more than you' didn't really put him at odds with you that much, you could be on the same side of policies. There was almost no such thing as big corporations. That's in contrast to today, where now a thousand Americans are expected to outspend the rest of the country combined in election spending.

So, Democracy was created to form a government that was very much an instrument of the freedom of citizens, far more than had existed, with their consent.

And in that sense, you have it exactly wrong when you say its purpose it to oppress.

But. There's a big but. Well, two of them.

The first is the 'what about the anarchist/libertarian/tea party get rid of government' idea?

That is basically a naïve and dangerous notion that leads to the loss of power by the people as surely as it did for the communist states created to get rid of government. Oops.

I won't get into the argument about it here - it's time consuming and basically no one who has those views has had the ability to change them that I've seen, but I'll state my view.

The second is the more interesting and relevant issue - about the conflict between concentrated wealth and democracy. Just because the constitution bans titles, and We don't have 'Count Bill Gates' and 'Duke David Koch', doesn't mean that money doesn't really still give a lot of political power - and that is an ongoing battle for our country's history. And embarrassingly, it's a war that has normally gone a lot better than it is now.

Yes, we have a sordid history of the US Senate being 'the millionare's club' when it was appointed - but when it needs tens of millions of dollars to win a Senate race, and there is a massive amount spent on a propaganda machine that corrupts public opinion fundamentally so that the 'people's choice' becomes people like Ted Cruz, and the recent systemic changes we've made to take away the people's right to limit money in elections, we're at a low point.

And this is not the issue of government being bad, or for oppression - it's the issue of when democracy is corrupted by the same money that once represented the elite of England's few powerful, being allowed to take real democracy away from the people of the United States, to let those same few wealthy people have the power they are support to lose to democracy.

A Supreme Court Justice once said, you can have democracy, or you can have a large concentration of wealth, but you cannot have both.

And he was right. There are fundamental conflicts between the 'class interests' of great fortunes and the egalitarian, populist ideals of 'people power' with democracy, and great fortunes can be expected to use those fortunes, usually, in their own interest, which means at the expense of the people's power. There are exceptions by some principled and wealthy people, but overall, there is that conflict.

So you're wrong to simply attack 'government'. Government has done incredible things good for the people - largely but not entirely along the lines of equality - gender, race, sexual orientation and more - and it's an insidious bit of propaganda that the wealthy few who want to take the people's power away use, to try to get the people to simply 'hate government' as if government is the enemy rather than those very wealth and powerful few. They know who their enemy is - the enemy for them is democracy, and the people.

But they can trick some - like you - into surrendering the only chance you have for more freedom, through the power of a functioning democracy.

It may not look like it sometimes, when you see the democratic process corrupted, and the elected government do oppressive things - even the Supreme Court as it's now corrupted with five radicals who are re-writing our constitution to fit their ideology. But you should learn to appreciate the good government does, and how it can do even better when it's really representing the people, not bought by the wealthy (and elected by those voters who misguidedly support their agenda, such as the 'tea party'.)

Of course, there are issues in any society which pit one group against another, in which they claim their 'freedoms are infringed', even in a legitimate democracy. The slaves' rights were pitted against the rights of the majority of southerners who wanted to preserve the slavery system. The black person's rights to eat at a lunch counter was pitted against the restaurant owner's right to choose who to serve. Taxing all homeowners to pay for public education has been called less freedom for the childless homeowner who doesn't want to pay it.

But none of this changes that the system of democracy as a basic system for redistributing power to the citizens artificially is far superior to not having it, where the power is simply held by a few and the people have few if any rights, the return to oligarchy. But that's the way things are headed, as inequality is greatly increasing, and while you technically can vote for you want to, money is more and more controlling who can really get elected.

But 'government' is not the villain. That's a false and simplistic statement - even if government sometimes is a villain.

Government also directs that society's resources are largely used to serve the needs and desires of the people - from ensuring food safety to exploring space.

And it's more important than ever. In ancient Rome, the emperors paid for large public entertainment largely out of self preservation - if the public turned on them, as absolute as their power was in theory, they were quite vulnerable. That's no longer the case. With modern military, intelligence, security, there can never again be a use of force by the people to overthrow the US government - and so it's even more in our interest to ensure that the democracy that keeps that government serving the people is protected from corruption - and we've been doing the opposite. This is the source of the hostility to government by most - and a threat to the very democracy the people need for protection from the powerful.

These servants of the billionares in the tea party love to chant slogans about 'freedom' and liberty', but there's a perversity to how they're corrupting those words. They're not a new populism - they're a new attack by the same old forces of wealth to gain political power and subvert real democracy, by corrupting our system.

If you want enemy, do not look at government, look at the enemies of democracy, those who want to use the force of great wealth to undermine democracy - in ways such as, for one example, the role of ALEC in turning corporate wealth into the laws passed by our elected leaders for the benefit of corporate interest at the expense of citizens.

In this sense, someone having more is no longer harmless as it was with Washington - now, it's the Kochs taking over states, it's wealthy individuals changing the government of their states. All in order to take the power of the people away from them, and to ultimately reduce the freedom of most, leaving the freedom of the few seen in oligarchy.
 
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