Does the U.S. need factories to be an economic power?

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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This morning there was a good piece in Time Magazine's blog The Curious Capitalist that attempts to answer a question that's floated here over and over again.

My opinion on the subject is the same as the article writer's - having a strong national base in the production process of manufacturing is simply not that important anymore. It's become commoditized and ever lower margins are to be gained from it. That said, it is useful and important in that it is a provider of jobs - for now.

The Curious Capitalist - Does the U.S. need factories to be an economic power?

Are factories a necessary requirement for national prosperity in an advanced economy like the U.S.? Or is that an old-fashioned concept, out of step in this age of global production networks, instant communications and competition from emerging economies?

I'm going to offer up a counterpoint: A nation today doesn't need to have its own factories to be an economic power, even a manufacturing power. Here's what I mean:

The notion that the outsourcing and offshoring of American manufacturing would come to destroy the U.S. economy is not a new concern. Akio Morita, the co-founder of Sony, made this same point back in the 1980s, when the U.S. was scuffling with a rising Japan. Americans, he warned, “make money by ‘handling' money and shuffling it around instead of creating and producing goods with some actual value.”

That problem may seem more true today than ever, as the meltdown on Wall Street raised serious questions about the viability of growth based on services, and especially financial innovation. (The collapse of Ireland offers even more evidence.) Perhaps Jenner and Morita are right. Americans have to get back on the assembly line, manufacturing cars and electronics and airplanes rather than financial instruments if the economy is going to thrive in the future.

Or perhaps not. The alternative argument is that the real value in manufacturing may not be in the production process anymore. Let's look at Apple, for instance. Here's a firm that is essentially a computer and consumer electronics maker – that doesn't make very many of its own products. Apple owns one factory (in, of all places, Ireland), but outsources “substantially all” its manufacturing to other companies, as an Apple spokesperson wrote me.

And what impact has that had on Apple? Not much, it seems. Apple is one of the most influential companies in the world, with a stock price that is currently around an all-time high. That's because the real value in Apple's products can be found in the design, technology and branding, not in the process of physically screwing them together in a factory.

That becomes even clearer when we look at the companies that actually make Apple products. Take, for example, Hon Hai Precision Industry, a Taiwan-based giant that manufactures computers, mobile phones and other gadgets for a who's-who of international brands. Hon Hai runs a perfectly profitable, successful business, but it isn't benefiting quite as much from making the iPad as Apple has from designing and marketing it. Hon Hai's stock is well off its 52-week high, and its chairman recently said he had sliced the firm's annual revenue growth target to 15% from 30%.

The problem with being a firm like Hon Hai – which focuses more on the manufacturing process rather than the branding and innovative aspects of the business of making products – is that it lacks pricing power. The no-name manufacturers of Asia are constantly seeing their profits squeezed by their customers, who can outsource production to any number of eager factory owners. A company like Hon Hai likely has more leverage than many others, since it is so exceptional at what it does. But companies that primarily manufacture are always more vulnerable than those which control the brands, technology and designs.

That's why manufacturing companies across Asia are trying to follow the Apples, Sonys and H-Ps of the world, to expand out of making stuff into the more profitable realms of branding and design. South Korean electronics companies Samsung and LG have greatly enhanced their influence in the world economy since they developed powerful and well-known brands, and the well-designed products to match.

Taiwan PC maker Acer used to manufacture computers for itself and other firms, but not anymore. Now Acer focuses on PC design and marketing. The company spun off its manufacturing over the years and now outsources 100% of its production. But that hasn't hurt its fortunes. Acer has gorged on market share in recent years, racing up to become the No.2 brand in the world, even though it doesn't produce one of its own computers.

From this perspective, the real value of manufacturing in today's economy can't be found on the assembly lines. Manufacturing has become somewhat of a commodity – lots of factories around the world can make a perfectly good mobile phone or PC.

But not everyone can design an iPad or develop the applications for it. That innovative process at the heart of manufacturing hasn't been commoditized, and can't be. That's where a high-cost but creative economy like the U.S. can maintain its advantage over the rising manufacturing powers of the emerging world.

That doesn't mean the U.S. should close all of its factories tomorrow. There is still a ton of room to compete in manufacturing industries that require a great degree of skill and technology. (Germany's manufacturing sector has excelled in that regard, but that's the subject of another post.) What I do believe, however, is that the advanced economies place far too much importance on the role of factories in their future competitiveness and growth.

There are some serious implications of this thinking. The loss of manufacturing does mean the loss of certain employment opportunities, especially for semi-skilled workers. It also means that the U.S. has to devote much greater resources to education, to produce the kind of creative, skilled employees who can design the next iPad rather than manufacture one.

Perhaps the U.S. would have been better off using the billions to bailout General Motors to bailout the nation's struggling schools. Or instead of continuing tax breaks for the rich, who can afford to send their kids to elite boarding schools, we should divert more tax dollars to smart but needy children so they can excel and contribute to the national economy.

The U.S. has to wake up to the reality that the classic industrial age is coming to an end for Americans, and they have to prepare better for the new age, in which creating stuff means a lot more than building it.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
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Mar 20, 2000
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problem is, as you kind of point out, there aren't enough jobs for designers in the world. and there's no monopoly on design or engineering talent in the US (or the 1st world, for that matter).
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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No, we don't need factories, and factories in a general sense aren't even that desirable. They are dirty, dangerous places for people to work that cause environmental damage and burden our health system.

Of course there will always be factories in the US, and you could make the case for a national security issue if we lost too much of our base, but seriously, factories suck.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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We need factories simply so we have less dependence on other countries. It's fine if we lean on them, but we shouldn't chop off our own 2 feet.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
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they provide jobs for the "mindless millions". You know..the ones wit their pants falling off
black and blue with tats. The latest face bolt fashion with matching cell phone. With retrograde american education..what else can you do??
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
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they provide jobs for the "mindless millions". You know..the ones wit their pants falling off
black and blue with tats. The latest face bolt fashion with matching cell phone. With retrograde american education..what else can you do??

Yea, because the hipster GenXer's are lining up to work in factories :rolleyes:
 
Dec 30, 2004
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This morning there was a good piece in Time Magazine's blog The Curious Capitalist that attempts to answer a question that's floated here over and over again.

My opinion on the subject is the same as the article writer's - having a strong national base in the production process of manufacturing is simply not that important anymore. It's become commoditized and ever lower margins are to be gained from it. That said, it is useful and important in that it is a provider of jobs - for now.

The Curious Capitalist - Does the U.S. need factories to be an economic power?

We just need something that other countries want to buy.
That said, efficiencies of mass production are leaving the unemployed out-- permanently.

Like in Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,824
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I suppose that's the case, however, the US does need a large well Paid Work force that produces some kind of high value product. That used to be Manufacturing and up until now there hasn't really been a replacement of those kinds of jobs in any number close to what has been lost due to the loss of the Manufacturing base.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Does the US need a middle class? Or is a ruling oligarchy and an enormous underclass more desireable?

Conservatives: The latter of course.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I changed my mind, we need Soviet Union style mass industrialization.

If you find yourself in a situation where Anarchist420 agrees with you, you're almost certainly wrong, therefore I amend my previous position.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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**shakes head at thread**

Everyone can just be doctors, lawyers, computer IT guys and engineers. Problem solved.
 

DesiPower

Lifer
Nov 22, 2008
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so on one hand we keep importing poor ppl from other countries and our 15 year old students stand 25th in world so IMHO the only thing most of them are good for is manual labor but then we don't have factories so no manual labor possible. hmm... interesting... very interesting. Another liberal douche reporter thinks he knows it all has all the answers and his was is the best!!
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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**shakes head at thread**

Everyone can just be doctors, lawyers, computer IT guys and engineers. Problem solved.

so on one hand we keep importing poor ppl from other countries and our 15 year old students stand 25th in world so IMHO the only thing most of them are good for is manual labor but then we don't have factories so no manual labor possible. hmm... interesting... very interesting. Another liberal douche reporter thinks he knows it all has all the answers and his was is the best!!

No need to jump to extremes, dudes.

Nobody here is denigrating factory work, at least in a wholesale manner. Honest work is honest work, be it on Wall Street or in a GM plant. But the fact of the matter is it is more easily commoditized than the process of innovation is. Since the West can't compete on price due to wage laws, we either have to get protectionist or shift our workers into other - hopefully less fungible - areas.

And in terms of "his way is the best" - he's a columnist(/blogger), not a reporter, and part of the job description of a columnist(/blogger) is to take positions and argue for them. Kind of strange to call someone a douchebag for doing what their job calls for.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
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so on one hand we keep importing poor ppl from other countries and our 15 year old students stand 25th in world so IMHO the only thing most of them are good for is manual labor but then we don't have factories so no manual labor possible. hmm... interesting... very interesting. Another liberal douche reporter thinks he knows it all has all the answers and his was is the best!!
Great post. Don't expect progressives to think things through - but, you already know this. :D
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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So much fail not even funny.

All wealth comes from either making something, mining something, or grwing something. Everything else is dependent on those.

Nevermind that apple does manufacture, the only reason we are able to afford iphones is credit which will run out one way or another. Either sudden stop or hyperinflation. Then you will see what a nation looks like that does not produce what it consumes.

BTW USA is still #1 in manufacturing, growing and mining but even so not what we consume which is why we run debt.
 
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DesiPower

Lifer
Nov 22, 2008
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740
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Great post. Don't expect progressives to think things through - but, you already know this. :D

Think you may, but I will be outraged when your thought is totally out of touch with reality. His idea, I must agree holds some water BUT no matter who you see it, factories will always be needed coz everyone in a society cannot be an intellect, its unrealistic. I support protectionism and to my tunnel vision, it sounds like an excuse to outsource even more.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Anyone else think it's funny to have Acer and Apple in same sentence?
 
Nov 29, 2006
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they provide jobs for the "mindless millions". You know..the ones wit their pants falling off
black and blue with tats. The latest face bolt fashion with matching cell phone. With retrograde american education..what else can you do??

This is kind of my thought on the issue. Well at least the "mindless millions" part. Not everyone can or wants to be white collar. You need a strong middle/lower class that provides items/goods for the country. If all these people were forced into white collar type jobs wed all be here bitching about how we cant find a job because it would be over satuarted with people. Then the pay would decline since someone is always willing to do IT for less then the guy before him if it means he gets a job.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
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So much fail not even funny.

All wealth comes from either making something, mining something, or grwing something. Everything else is dependent on those.

Nevermind that apple does manufacture, the only reason we are able to afford iphones is credit which will run out one way or another. Either sudden stop or hyperinflation. Then you will see what a nation looks like that does not produce what it consumes.

BTW USA is still #1 in manufacturing, growing and mining but even so not what we consume which is why we run debt.

This. We seem snug in our assumption that creativity means white skin and American accents. This is simply not so. America has historically been creative for two reasons - we had an abnormally high proportion of risk takers, and we manufactured things. The people involved with manufacturing things are usually the ones to dream up the next advance, or a better way to manufacture existing product. Since we have outsourced manufacturing, increasingly innovation comes from other countries.

The other big problem with losing manufacturing is wealth distribution. If the middle class is not producing wealth, then it becomes increasingly difficult for the middle class to demand wealth; resource owners earn the vast majority of the wealth and the middle class becomes irrelevant. Thus either our middle class becomes increasingly poorer (at least relative to the upper class resource owners), or we use government to seize and redistribute wealth, resulting in less societal wealth and less freedom overall. Bottom line, if we do not produce wealth, we cannot continue to consume wealth. It does no one any good to claim that we can exist at the same level by simply becoming designers and big pictures guys; that isn't even working now, much less in the future decades.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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There was posted many years ago a list of the 7 steps of decline of every empire in history. #6 was (paraphrased here) "relying on the slave labor of the conquered lands for your goods and services". Sounds like we are step #6 right now then.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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BTW USA is still #1 in manufacturing, growing and mining but even so not what we consume which is why we run debt.

I see that and wonder what we are making? I really think that the processed food that we make so much is what propels us in manufacturing vs the rest of the world. That and maybe big ticket items like planes and military (oh and we do make cars here too - for now). What can I buy in 99% of the stores out there that's made in the US? Can you guys name every day items (TV's? PC's, clocks, clothes, shoes, faucets, tools, toothbrushes, hair brushes, monitors, etc x millions). Manufacturing in the US provides much more than just manual labor jobs. There are millions of supporting engineering and R&D jobs that are associated with the very processes that we make stuff here. Move those factories offshore and those jobs go with them. The people who build and work on robot cells, machine tools, industrial sensors and supplies...all gone in one fell swoop.

Not to mention that I read that over 50% of R&D money in the US comes from manufacturers here (can't validate that stat. as I don't know how to quantify it..just passing along).

Step #6....here we come.