Does the left really love government?

[Descartes]

I was listening to Boortz this morning and he was on a rant about public vs. private schools. Go to public school and you love government; go to private and you love God.

To me, this is typical of the right in the mis-characterization of an argument and easily falls in one of the often recited logical fallacy buckets.

I like to think of myself as intellectually honest if nothing else. If I disagree with someone, I really do try to understand why. In this case, rather than just excuse it as a rant I'd like to ask the question:

Does the left really *love* government?

I hear this all the time from the right, but oddly enough I don't ever hear it from the left. I've never heard anyone on the left describe the government with any sense of reverence. Am I mistaken in that it was just a difference of philosophy as to how a particular problem should be solved?

No hyperbole please. No, "Yes, they're all socialists!!!", "Liberalism is a disease!!" or any such nonsense. Personally, I love solutions, regardless of the package. If it's a good solution, I'm all ears. I hold no ideological position to it anymore than I have an ideological position on using any tool to solve a problem.

Your thoughts?

 

[zsdersw]

The Left "loves" to use government for some things, the Right "loves" to use government for others, but they both "love" government.

Using the term "love" is, by itself, hyperbole.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The Left "loves" to use government for some things, the Right "loves" to use government for others, but they both "love" government.

Excellent synopsis :thumbsup:

 

[JoshGuru7]

Fiscal liberals support a stronger role for government in the economy than fiscal conservatives do, while fiscal conservatives generally prefer the free market. Talk of left versus complicates this issue since not all democrats are fiscally liberal, and even though most (all?) republicans label themselves fiscally conservative very few of them behave that way (tax credits are not fiscally conservative).

My question to you in response would be why does it bother you to be characterized as pro-government if you are fiscally liberal?

 

[yllus]

Making statements in approval of government conjures up too many quotations from 1984 and the like, so that rarely happens.

I would say that the average liberal does strive for collectivization and extreme democratization of pretty much everything, and at as high a level as possible: Social policy, management of the markets, international relations, etc. Since national governments and bodies like the U.N. best serve that cause I'd say that on average it's true that liberals love government. They just don't use the dirty G-word to describe the organization they'd like to have control of these things.

 

[Slick5150]

Fiscal liberals support a stronger role for government in the economy than fiscal conservatives do, while fiscal conservatives generally prefer the free market. Talk of left versus complicates this issue since not all democrats are fiscally liberal, and even though most (all?) republicans label themselves fiscally conservative very few of them behave that way (tax credits are not fiscally conservative).

My question to you in response would be why does it bother you to be characterized as pro-government if you are fiscally liberal?

It doesn't bother me personally. I think the American Government has done some tremendous things. It's put a man on the moon. It's created cures for countless diseases. Promoted financial security in retirement. Ensured our food and water supplies are safe. Strengthened our national defense. Protected our wildlife and natural resources. Etc.. etc.. etc..

Sure, it also has it's faults, but I find the "Government is teh Evils!" crowd to be ignorant of what Government is. Government has made America great, and instead of condemning it's faults we should work to improve them.

 

[StageLeft]

Generally the left and right love government equally. Both want it to further their purposes and expand if it can and shrink when it disagrees with them. The left is just a bit more honest about this because they are not as delusional, pretending on the one hand they want limited government and on the other expanding it quickly (like the right appears to do).

 

[Lemon law]

To some extent, I like to look at the question from a government regulation of the economy type viewpoint.

Just as gambling establishment have house offs making the house the inevitable winners,
the rich and the powerful in any society make the laws of the land into instruments in which they will be the inevitable winners. And its always a moving target as a society changes, its the governments job to level the playing field and other forces try to tilt the landscape.

To some extent truth in lending laws are perfect examples of minimal but effective government regulation. Big banks used to hire armies of people who majored in confusing in college to write up loan documents in such a way it was almost impossible to calculate true interest rates, then came the truth in lending laws making that game illegal, now its easy to compare loan offers, and all those formerly employed army of confusers find ample employment writing up cell phone and similar contracts.

Or we can take the recent oil spill, two years ago GWB relaxed regulatory rules, and hence BP was not legally required to have a oil spill plan in place.

A too regulated economy fails and so does an under regulated one. Finding that wise middle course is very difficult.

 

[Muse]

Does the left really love government?

No, they hate the negative aspects of capitalism and want to counter them effectively.

 

[palehorse]

duh.

However, the right has become addicted as well, so it's kinda a lose-lose situation at this point...

 

[Jaskalas]

Does the left really love government?

Every single action they take concentrates the wealth and power of this nation into a single focal point - yet you still don't have the answer to this foregone conclusion?

 

[Steeplerot]

RW Government hate (A paranoia, in my opinion still left over from losing the revolutionary war) and the Cadillac queen myth (The paranoia that most everyone collecting welfare is out to defraud the system) are 2 of the dumbest conspiracy righties have, sadly their whole ideology is built on these 2 strawmen. Which makes it useless to even find much common ground.

 

[Jaskalas]

...useless to even find much common ground.

Hey, we can agree on that. There is no common ground.

 

[Steeplerot]

Hey, we can agree on that. There is no common ground.

I did not say no, there is always the chance you folks will quit listening to the usual rw suspects as one day you might realize you are taking marching orders from people who have their own best interests in mind, not yours and that dividing fellow americans with hate is unamerican.

I am tending to think most of the 30%ers are just haters, addicted to outrage and anger always looking into others problems to avoid their own lives. Sad folks, angry, damaged people for whatever reason, this is Moonies realm here.

 

[Descartes]

Fiscal liberals support a stronger role for government in the economy than fiscal conservatives do, while fiscal conservatives generally prefer the free market. Talk of left versus complicates this issue since not all democrats are fiscally liberal, and even though most (all?) republicans label themselves fiscally conservative very few of them behave that way (tax credits are not fiscally conservative).

My question to you in response would be why does it bother you to be characterized as pro-government if you are fiscally liberal?

Well, I'm a fiscal conservative, but my point isn't so much pro-government as it is characterizing a government solution as somehow being in love with the government rather than in love with the solution itself.

I love free market solutions and some of those from government. Again, it's all about the solution, not which party originated it or who ultimately executes it (though admittedly the government doesn't get points for execution...).

 

[Descartes]

Does the left really love government?

No, they hate the negative aspects of capitalism and want to counter them effectively.

If you hate some of the negative consequences of capitalism, do you hate capitalism in its entirety? Of course not.

I hate some of the consequences of government interaction the markets, but I don't hate government as a result.

Why are we losing the balance and sight of the real issue at hand?

[edit]I'm doing three things at once and neglected to acknowledge that you basically said the same thing I did. So, I agree with you and nevermind.[/edit]

 

[JoshGuru7]

Well, I'm a fiscal conservative, but my point isn't so much pro-government as it is characterizing a government solution as somehow being in love with the government rather than in love with the solution itself.

I guess I don't see this as an issue since "love" is often attributed to things we don't actually love but instead simply demonstrate a preference for, ie.. a soft drink brand or a car brand. I agree that it would be more accurate to reframe that fiscal liberals generally prefer government solutions more than fiscal conversatives do, but that's kind of a mouthful.

Fiscally liberal: Markets fail. That's why we need government.
Fiscally conservative: Markets fail. That's why we need markets.

 

[HumblePie]

I literally know some very right wing individuals as personal friends who have a very narrow viewpoint on government. It is basically this.

There should be little to zero federal government.

They want no federal income tax, no federal programs, and no standing military force. They feel that since that is how the US started then that was how it worked when the Constitution was written, and it should be that way now. To them, what worked back then should still work. They believe that everything should be left to the states and have more emphasis put on the States part in the name United States of America. That is the crux of their belief.

It's not that these heavy right wingers want no government, they want practically no federal government. Just local and state. So if they don't like something, they can move somewhere else, or be able to exert more personal influence easier and see changes more readily. Why? One person casting a vote among millions has no real influence. One person casting a vote in a town of a few thousand has much greater influence. The smaller it gets, the more they feel like their views and opinions count and matter. The more connected they feel to the politics and their community.

That is the basis of the heavy right wingers, and I can't say it doesn't have a certain appeal to it.

The problem is, America is no longer made up of small communities dotted across a vast landscape. The Globe doesn't see America as this anymore either. Neither allies nor enemies. We are seen as a United whole. A United whole requires a federal government to represent us as a larger community. This is the crux of the friction I see right now in all this crappy bi-partisan hackery. It is drawing lines and people are sticking to sides with a fanatical devotion sometimes. Throw into the mix pure trolls and people with their own agenda looking to stir the shitpot and we have the current political climate we have now.


Does the Left really love government? No, I see them more willing to embrace a Federal and United government which puts more power into the hands of the feds and less from the local states and communities. Free market this, or that, or taxes this or that, are all just symptoms of this underlying issue of where people believe the power should reside. Local or Federal. Until this issue is resolved, if ever, their will be a great amount of friction in this country between people with these two opposing view points.

 

[Descartes]

I guess I don't see this as an issue since "love" is often attributed to things we don't actually love but instead simply demonstrate a preference for, ie.. a soft drink brand or a car brand. I agree that it would be more accurate to reframe that fiscal liberals generally prefer government solutions more than fiscal conversatives do, but that's kind of a mouthful.

Fiscally liberal: Markets fail. That's why we need government.
Fiscally conservative: Markets fail. That's why we need markets.

Good points. Maybe I'm taking it a little too far.

Agree on your description of liberal vs. conservative as well.

 

[daishi5]

The left - right divide is usually split around what they want to do. The left usually wants to fix problems, the right normally wants to preserve a status quo.

When you talk to someone who is on the "left" on an issue, they usually want someone, or something to take control and change it for the better. The left does not really "love" the government. They want to make the world a better place, they see things that they think can be fixed, and usually government is the only entity with the power to "fix" it. The left mostly love making things "better" for everyone.

 

[HumblePie]

The left - right divide is usually split around what they want to do. The left usually wants to fix problems, the right normally wants to preserve a status quo.

When you talk to someone who is on the "left" on an issue, they usually want someone, or something to take control and change it for the better. The left does not really "love" the government. They want to make the world a better place, they see things that they think can be fixed, and usually government is the only entity with the power to "fix" it. The left mostly love making things "better" for everyone.

That is not a left versus right. That's a progressive versus non progessive issue. There are many on the left that favor the status quo as well. There are also many on the right that like changes, but only done locally.

This is where people get confused about political terms.

The definition of left versus right is split down the amount of power that resides at the federal level versus local/state. Who has control and enforces the laws. That is the difference between left and right.

Then there are other politcal terms and splits. Such as Progressive versus Conservative. One wants changes whenever something happens through the government involvement (be it local, state, or federal involvement). The other wants no government involvement it all and rather have other solutions to solve a problem that does not require government intervention.

There is also liberal versus libertarian. And whole subsets of divided issues and stances. Mostly just derivatives of the main two issues.

Left versus Right.
Progressive versus Conservative.


Traditionally it is view that people on the Left are also typically Progressive and vice versa. Hence the broader categorization the OP used when he asked if all Lefties love government. The answer would be no. There are Conservative Lefties. These are people that would rather have very little government involvement where possible, but if there has to be government involvement, then make it uniform by doing it at the federal level where at all possible. That would be a Conservative Left. A Progressive Right would be that person that loves to make and invent new laws for their locality for anything they believe or perceive should be done. They don't want the federal government to overstep what they are trying to accomplish at a local level as they want their little slice of the world the be run their unique way. If some of the local laws they have overlap with other places, so be it, but they don't feel that just because everyone does it, that is should be universal. What if they change their mind or find a better solution? If they do, then can change their local government more readily than something that affects the entire nation.


Again, people typically confuse and blur the true categorizations of politics. Then they take subsets and try to make them into major categories when they are not.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

I did not say no, there is always the chance you folks will quit listening to the usual rw suspects as one day you might realize you are taking marching orders from people who have their own best interests in mind, not yours and that dividing fellow americans with hate is unamerican.

I am tending to think most of the 30%ers are just haters, addicted to outrage and anger always looking into others problems to avoid their own lives. Sad folks, angry, damaged people for whatever reason, this is Moonies realm here.

If there is one thing you don't know steeplebot - it's people on the right. Keep trying to think you do though...
... aren't you late for the weekly anarchist meeting?

 

[werepossum]

The Left "loves" to use government for some things, the Right "loves" to use government for others, but they both "love" government.

Using the term "love" is, by itself, hyperbole.

This.

Humblepie is on to something. The right says to limit federal government so that if we don't like our government we can move elsewhere and still be Americans. The left says the federal government will damn well tell you when to move, and to where, and how much of your stuff you will be permitted to take with you. But in the end, neither side is willing to give up power over their fellow man.