does NT-H1 TIM suffer pump-out on IHS application too, or just bare-die mounting?

[soccerballtux]

otherwise, I'm not sure why I'm going with ICD7

 

[myocardia]

Mine never has. I've been using NT-H1 for a few heatsinks now, and have never had to reapply. I did use Tuniq TX-1 on my Q9650, though. Never had to reapply it, even after 6 years.

edit: I've used the Noctua NT-H1 on a few heatsinks, other than my main rig. I didn't change to using it on my main rig until the first week of this year, on this 4790K build.

 

[soccerballtux]

it seems to perform much better than ICD7

 

[BonzaiDuck]

it seems to perform much better than ICD7

I'd have to look again at the NT-H1 and its ingredients. But I'd think it impossible for it to outperform either ICD, CLU or XT. That may also explain all this excitement about pyrolitic graphite for building coolers. Diamond has maybe 10x the thermal conductivity of copper or silver.

Somewhere, there must be a comparison review including NT-H1 and one of the other three.

You can apply amounts of ICD in excess of what is needed under compression; there will be no adverse result -- just a bead of gray rubbery material extruding from the line of contact between IHS and HSF-base. Like the putty used to seal bathroom fixtures and floors.

 

[soccerballtux]

I'd have to look again at the NT-H1 and its ingredients. But I'd think it impossible for it to outperform either ICD, CLU or XT. That may also explain all this excitement about pyrolitic graphite for building coolers. Diamond has maybe 10x the thermal conductivity of copper or silver.

Somewhere, there must be a comparison review including NT-H1 and one of the other three.

You can apply amounts of ICD in excess of what is needed under compression; there will be no adverse result -- just a bead of gray rubbery material extruding from the line of contact between IHS and HSF-base. Like the putty used to seal bathroom fixtures and floors.

that's from Idontcare's tests

 

[BonzaiDuck]

That, they are! Definitely the hand of IDC in tests with ICD.

Did he do these tests with -- or without -- the gap between the IHS and die?

Now I'll have to do some NT-H1 investigations. 2C is . . . 2C!

that's from Idontcare's tests

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Here's a review that turned up in my first search:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Noctua/NT-H1/4.html

Before we dismiss IDontCare's tests for some explainable flaw, I'll only say I can't dismiss my own tests. I published the graphs here (somewhere) back in 2007.

I didn't test NT-H1, of course. But I did test ICD against Arctic Silver. It was definitely a minimum of 2C improvement over AS5.

There has to be some explanation for all of this, without impugning either IDC or myself.

But it's important to put it all in perspective. Obsessive though "we" [I/others] were about TIM performance, we're talking about slivers of grains of rice. Grab all the grains of rice you can? Sure! But slivers? There are additional ways to squeeze blood out of a heatpipe cooler.

AN AFTERTHOUGHT: Howsoever the "gap" factor did or didn't describe something in IDontCare's tests, using the paste between a silicon die and IHS would be completely different than using it between an IHS and heatsink base. The latter configuration inserts copper into the layers of material, which would completely change overall thermal resistance/conductivity and affect the measurements.

 

[soccerballtux]

That, they are! Definitely the hand of IDC in tests with ICD.

Did he do these tests with -- or without -- the gap between the IHS and die?

Now I'll have to do some NT-H1 investigations. 2C is . . . 2C!

he de-lidded. here you go: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2285595

 

[soccerballtux]

Here's a review that turned up in my first search:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Noctua/NT-H1/4.html

Before we dismiss IDontCare's tests for some explainable flaw, I'll only say I can't dismiss my own tests. I published the graphs here (somewhere) back in 2007.

I didn't test NT-H1, of course. But I did test ICD against Arctic Silver. It was definitely a minimum of 2C improvement over AS5.

There has to be some explanation for all of this, without impugning either IDC or myself.

But it's important to put it all in perspective. Obsessive though "we" [I/others] were about TIM performance, we're talking about slivers of grains of rice. Grab all the grains of rice you can? Sure! But slivers? There are additional ways to squeeze blood out of a heatpipe cooler.

AN AFTERTHOUGHT: Howsoever the "gap" factor did or didn't describe something in IDontCare's tests, using the paste between a silicon die and IHS would be completely different than using it between an IHS and heatsink base. The latter configuration inserts copper into the layers of material, which would completely change overall thermal resistance/conductivity and affect the measurements.

so, do you think I should ICD7 or NT-H1 on the EVGA ACX that's coming wednesday? because I've already ordered Liquid Metal Ultra, and cancelled it, and ordered ICD7, and cancelled it, and ordered NT-H1...

 

[BonzaiDuck]

so, do you think I should ICD7 or NT-H1 on the EVGA ACX that's coming wednesday? because I've already ordered Liquid Metal Ultra, and cancelled it, and ordered ICD7, and cancelled it, and ordered NT-H1...

Set aside for a minute the disparate results comparing AS5, NT-H1 and ICD.

If you go with any direct-touch cooler, the ICD would be an advantage: nano-diamond would fill any cracks. Further, it doesn't pump out.

I'm assuming you won't de-lid. In that event -- and given the [disparate] data available -- I'd go with ICD.

I can even imagine something only I would try, since I've got the "stock," having purchased a 5-gram vial of micronized diamond powder 8 years ago. I could mix diamond powder with NT-H1. It wouldn't pump out. Or if it did, you'd be left with ICD performance, either way it goes.

I haven't found a spec-summary of NT-H1 ingredients yet. I'll continue to look.

. . . Ha! the hits jus' keep on comin'!

I found a Noctua "product safety data sheet" in PDF format -- I can't just link it here, the screen goes blank when I try to copy the link from a google search.

But! Here's the summary of ingredients:

Zinc Oxide -- 30% to 80% (??!!??)
Metal -- > 10% [other descriptor:] "Trade Secret"

That partially unveils any "mystery," I think.

 

[soccerballtux]

I understand that theoretically it could get more exposure and provide better conductivity, but 5C is nothing to cneez at, good enough to warrant faith and hope that it'll be near the best IMHO. that said, I have bought both. Will you buy the NT-H1 and try it for me?

and by the way, did you compare voltages on your 2 CPU overclocks to verify similar power consumption? When you wrote about the EVGA ACX vs. the NT-D15 or whatever

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I understand that theoretically it could get more exposure and provide better conductivity, but 5C is nothing to cneez at, good enough to warrant faith and hope that it'll be near the best IMHO. that said, I have bought both. Will you buy the NT-H1 and try it for me?

and by the way, did you compare voltages on your 2 CPU overclocks to verify similar power consumption? When you wrote about the EVGA ACX vs. the NT-D15 or whatever

Also in the PM. The drooped load values were 1.35V under the most severe tests. I think I get the lowest droop from Prime95 sFFT and either LinX or IBT. But they were identical for both systems and the same test.

D14 versus ACX and the 5+ to 6C difference apparently holds true even with identical enhancements, like ducting. A third machine compared to mine would also need to reflect lapping IHS to bare copper, ditto for the HSF base, and my choice of paste -- which you know.

 

[soccerballtux]

Also in the PM. The drooped load values were 1.35V under the most severe tests. I think I get the lowest droop from Prime95 sFFT and either LinX or IBT. But they were identical for both systems and the same test.

D14 versus ACX and the 5+ to 6C difference apparently holds true even with identical enhancements, like ducting. A third machine compared to mine would also need to reflect lapping IHS to bare copper, ditto for the HSF base, and my choice of paste -- which you know.

ok thanks that's good enough for me.

it's going to be a slow 2 days and week while I wait for my monitor...

did you konw, it's actually best to lap the HS down into the heatpipes, that way the wick can make contact directly with the CPU IHS/die...

 

[Ken g6]

Here's a review that turned up in my first search:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Noctua/NT-H1/4.html

Before we dismiss IDontCare's tests for some explainable flaw, I'll only say I can't dismiss my own tests. I published the graphs here (somewhere) back in 2007.

I didn't test NT-H1, of course. But I did test ICD against Arctic Silver. It was definitely a minimum of 2C improvement over AS5.

There has to be some explanation for all of this, without impugning either IDC or myself.

But it's important to put it all in perspective. Obsessive though "we" [I/others] were about TIM performance, we're talking about slivers of grains of rice. Grab all the grains of rice you can? Sure! But slivers? There are additional ways to squeeze blood out of a heatpipe cooler.

AN AFTERTHOUGHT: Howsoever the "gap" factor did or didn't describe something in IDontCare's tests, using the paste between a silicon die and IHS would be completely different than using it between an IHS and heatsink base. The latter configuration inserts copper into the layers of material, which would completely change overall thermal resistance/conductivity and affect the measurements.

I notice something interesting in that review you linked to:

"the NT-H1 was ready to test immediately, whereas the AS5 had to settle for nearly two weeks."

I doubt either you or IDC let the AS5 settle for two weeks. Nor would I blame anyone for not doing that.

I think NT-H1 is the best all-around easy-to-use TIM. ICD7 may be better if you can really put some pressure on it - something you can't do with bare-die mounting. But it also scratches things up. And the liquid TIMs may be better too, but they're messy and hard to work with.

 

[soccerballtux]

I notice something interesting in that review you linked to:

"the NT-H1 was ready to test immediately, whereas the AS5 had to settle for nearly two weeks."

I doubt either you or IDC let the AS5 settle for two weeks. Nor would I blame anyone for not doing that.

I think NT-H1 is the best all-around easy-to-use TIM. ICD7 may be better if you can really put some pressure on it - something you can't do with bare-die mounting. But it also scratches things up. And the liquid TIMs may be better too, but they're messy and hard to work with.

I've never seen AS5 improve with time. ever

 

[crashtech]

I think NT-H1 is very idiot proof, tolerant of over-application, poorly fitting joints, and less than spotless surfaces. That makes it a no-brainer for me.

 

[YBS1]

I can't find any head to head with GELID GC-Extreme versus IC Diamond. I can say the liquid metals best everything I have tried no question, but GC Extreme is close, really close. Though it probably works best with high mount pressure due to it's extreme viscosity.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I notice something interesting in that review you linked to:

"the NT-H1 was ready to test immediately, whereas the AS5 had to settle for nearly two weeks."

I doubt either you or IDC let the AS5 settle for two weeks. Nor would I blame anyone for not doing that.

I think NT-H1 is the best all-around easy-to-use TIM. ICD7 may be better if you can really put some pressure on it - something you can't do with bare-die mounting. But it also scratches things up. And the liquid TIMs may be better too, but they're messy and hard to work with.

Actually, I did -- I had to. It had already been installed for such a period of time before I replaced it.

But the benchmarks on ICD versus AS5 -- correct me, but I remember what I saw in '07 -- show the commonly accepted difference. I only proved it for myself with a TRUE cooler. It would only stand to reason given the thermal properties of the two materials. And as I said, we're talking about slivers of difference -- relatively -- since all the materials in the IHS and cooler/waterblock prevail in the overall cooling effect.

But I can't poop on NT-H1 now. I'll want to look at some reviews specifically for it in comparison to other solutions. "Metal [Trade Secret]" just says a lot. You'd expect they employ the same elements in the equation that you might find in either CLU or IX.

For ICD, you're probably right about mounting pressure. And the abrasive factor.

The only thing you can trust is a reliable, comprehensive comparison review, and you're better with "several." There's plenty of hearsay -- check this archived 2011 discussion at ROG:

http://rog.asus.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-46473.html?

Myk SilentShadow -- the fifth post on that page -- says he "observed" a 10C improvement. I might have believed it six or seven years ago until I disappointed myself in accurate measurements. But it's an absurd assertion now.

 

[Idontcare]

otherwise, I'm not sure why I'm going with ICD7

I use NT-H1 on everything that doesn't involve direct-die contact. For direct die contact I prefer CLU or ICD.

I've had pump-out issues with NT-H1 on both CPU and GPU direct-die mounts, including my laptop's mobile CPU. No such issues with ICD (with my laptop) or CLU (with my GPU and CPU in desktops).

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I use NT-H1 on everything that doesn't involve direct-die contact. For direct die contact I prefer CLU or ICD.

I've had pump-out issues with NT-H1 on both CPU and GPU direct-die mounts, including my laptop's mobile CPU. No such issues with ICD (with my laptop) or CLU (with my GPU and CPU in desktops).

But I can still assume there's a caveat for applying ICD to a new-gen CPU? Or has your perspective changed about that? Because . . . if it has changed . . . it would seem to be the same positive option we discussed back in the day of your delidding thread.

I've been having a side-discussion about the CLU and IX options. CLU apparently corrodes aluminum, which has been used in direct-touch heatpipe cooler bases. XT, according to its manufacturer -- doesn't. But both are discouraged for any heatpipe base that might have "gaps" in a direct-touch design.

It seems to me you could fill the gaps with ICD and still use XT. What do you think? Frankly, when I looked at my direct-touch cooler base, there wasn't much in the way of "gaps."

 

[soccerballtux]

kind of afraid to do any bare-die applications with just about anything these days. I burned 2 8800/9800GT's back to back with AS5 because, while not resistive, it -is- capacitive, and that was enough to screw up the capacitors it got on to. still, it surprised me that this would kill the card (and cleaning did not resurrect)

 

[PliotronX]

kind of afraid to do any bare-die applications with just about anything these days. I burned 2 8800/9800GT's back to back with AS5 because, while not resistive, it -is- capacitive, and that was enough to screw up the capacitors it got on to. still, it surprised me that this would kill the card (and cleaning did not resurrect)

Were you this guy?

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Suppose you had 4 grams of micronized natural diamond? ICD is made from synthetic. I'd be more worried about the uniformity of the natural variety, but the micron specs were consistent with ICD's. [ . . [And we should have a forum about "Hardware Addiction and Spending Excesses." $95 for 5 grams. M***-erF***-er!!] . . ]:twisted:

Some . . . industrial abrasives outfit . . . in Pennsylvania. I should have a record of the receipt and the 2007 Quicken file.

2 months before -- possibly even a year earlier -- some enthusiast posted his own project. He acquired one of those cheap drugstore vinyl-plastic contact-lense cases. I've even seen something similar for a pair of ear plugs I bought somewhere.

You drill a hole dead-center of the circular cap. You then obtain a standard paper-clip -- plain metal -- and fashion a propeller-shaped paddle on one end, so the remainder of the clip extends from dead-center of the paddle.

Then you fill your lense-case with as much "base" lubricant and diamond powder you care to use, mindful of the published loading for ICD.

So. We have a pump-out problem with NT-H1, and maybe even some pump-out with HSF-base/IHS applications -- but maybe not noticeable or worth mention. From the web-forums for the topic, people fret over IX re-flow, thermal damage to components, heat-guns and blow-dryers. Better not use it on a direct-touch, but maybe still feasible. CLU will corrode an aluminum base for a direct-touch of this or that manufacture.

So a few questions.

Noctua HSF designs use flat, solid-copper HSF bases -- nickel-plated. The Nickel doesn't matter -- better to get rid of it. But does NT-H1: (a) corrode aluminum? (b) Is it ill-advised to use with direct-touch? And . . .

(C) OTHERWISE, WHY NOT? The only thing against it would be neck-and-neck performance between the two ingredients. But if they're approximately the same, then you might possibly resolve the pump-out problem in the other applications.

Tell ya right now! You DO NOT want to spend the hundred bucks! WHAT was I THINKING?! "Enthusiast enthusiasm overrides budget?"!!:$

ADDENDUM for PM response: I can WEIGH grams! I'll offer a gram of that sh . . stuff at 20%, or maybe $9 over the price of an ICD 24-karat tube. And! Free Forever-stamp shipping!

ANOTHER ADDENDUM: Here's an old 2008 review of NT-H1 compared to AS5 -- most prominently, with no mention of ICD. The test bed was a Q6600 OC'd to 3.6 Ghz and volted to something like 1.55V. I've forgotten the spec TDP; it might have been 95W. Maybe even a little more, but not much. Since earlier than 45nm Yorkfield, maybe easier to cool. But only 1C improvement over AS5.

Probably not worth it. No gains -- maybe the slightest loss. Plus side: I could use up my micronized natural-diamond powder. . . .

A__A__: Forgot the link!

http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/noctua_nt_h1/5.htm

 

[soccerballtux]

Were you this guy?

6600gt so no but killed a Galaxy 8800GT and then a XFX 9800GT. That was when I swore off AS5 on a bare-die mount, and am afraid to do anything like it ever again. I swear swear I only put maybe 2 grains of rice of AS5 and spread it with a credit card and installed it and that was enough to kill both, FFS, FML.

 

[bononos]

I've never seen AS5 improve with time. ever

I've always seen the temps getting better. It doesn't take that long to settle down, a few days at the most.