Does consciousness require quantum effects?

Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
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The idea of quantum consciousness has gotten a really bad rap from all of the mushy-brained, new-age babble it's inspired. But with the area of quantum biology starting to grow with insights into photosynthesis and magnetic navigation by birds and possibly mammals, the idea that quantum effects play a role in the mysterious nature of human consciousness isn't beyond the pale.

As the article noted below indicates, even a luminary such as Roger Penrose believes such effects may be responsible for consciousness. But he pins his hopes on the superposition of microtubules, something that most people in the field dismiss simply because they are too massive to maintain coherence.

However there is at least one other possibility that's discussed.

That said, going from an intriguing hypothesis to actually demonstrating that quantum processing plays a role in the brain is a daunting challenge. The brain would need some mechanism for storing quantum information in qubits for sufficiently long times. There must be a mechanism for entangling multiple qubits, and that entanglement must then have some chemically feasible means of influencing how neurons fire in some way. There must also be some means of transporting quantum information stored in the qubits throughout the brain.

This is a tall order. Over the course of his five-year quest, Fisher has identified just one credible candidate for storing quantum information in the brain: phosphorus atoms, which are the only common biological element other than hydrogen with a spin of one-half, a low number that makes possible longer coherence times. Phosphorus can’t make a stable qubit on its own, but its coherence time can be extended further, according to Fisher, if you bind phosphorus with calcium ions to form clusters.

In 1975, Aaron Posner, a Cornell University scientist, noticed an odd clustering of calcium and phosphorous atoms in his X-rays of bone. He made drawings of the structure of those clusters: nine calcium atoms and six phosphorous atoms, later called “Posner molecules” in his honor. The clusters popped up again in the 2000s, when scientists simulating bone growth in artificial fluid noticed them floating in the fluid. Subsequent experiments found evidence of the clusters in the body. Fisher thinks that Posner molecules could serve as a natural qubit in the brain as well.

That’s the big picture scenario, but the devil is in the details that Fisher has spent the past few years hammering out. The process starts in the cell with a chemical compound called pyrophosphate. It is made of two phosphates bonded together — each composed of a phosphorus atom surrounded by multiple oxygen atoms with zero spin. The interaction between the spins of the phosphates causes them to become entangled. They can pair up in four different ways: Three of the configurations add up to a total spin of one (a “triplet” state that is only weakly entangled), but the fourth possibility produces a zero spin, or “singlet” state of maximum entanglement, which is crucial for quantum computing.

Next, enzymes break apart the entangled phosphates into two free phosphate ions. Crucially, these remain entangled even as they move apart. This process happens much more quickly, Fisher argues, with the singlet state. These ions can then combine in turn with calcium ions and oxygen atoms to become Posner molecules. Neither the calcium nor the oxygen atoms have a nuclear spin, preserving the one-half total spin crucial for lengthening coherence times. So those clusters protect the entangled pairs from outside interference so that they can maintain coherence for much longer periods of time — Fisher roughly estimates it might last for hours, days or even weeks.

In this way, the entanglement can be distributed over fairly long distances in the brain, influencing the release of neurotransmitters and the firing of synapses between neurons — spooky action at work in the brain.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/20161102-quantum-neuroscience/

QBrain_615.png
 

C1

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Feb 21, 2008
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Actually there's quite a bit going on in this area it seems (at least for me).

Penrose & Hammeroff are well known (Orch OR Theory). Ive attempted to read Penrose's "Shadows of the Mind" and am currently battling Fred Alan Wolf's "The Dreaming Universe."

This topic is discussed much on the Near Death forums (eg, NDERF.org) and various well known scientists/physicians such as Pim van Lommel are proponents of quantum processes involved in support of human consciousness.

Oddly enough, this stuff can lead into paranormal (UFO, telepathy, precognition, etc.).
 
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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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The idea of quantum consciousness has gotten a really bad rap from all of the mushy-brained, new-age babble it's inspired. But with the area of quantum biology starting to grow with insights into photosynthesis and magnetic navigation by birds and possibly mammals, the idea that quantum effects play a role in the mysterious nature of human consciousness isn't beyond the pale.

As the article noted below indicates, even a luminary such as Roger Penrose believes such effects may be responsible for consciousness. But he pins his hopes on the superposition of microtubules, something that most people in the field dismiss simply because they are too massive to maintain coherence.

However there is at least one other possibility that's discussed.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/20161102-quantum-neuroscience/

QBrain_615.png

I don't really understand the premise for pursuing this path, particularly linking consciousness to some mysterious magic. "Consciousness" (self-reflection) pretty obviously seems a side-effect of the right sensory organs and some intelligence. Even computers can reflect on themselves (and other computers) if programmed a certain way, so there's little reason to believe it requires some special functionality not possible with macro physics.

I think the general gist of claiming it's "quantum" has to do with some idealistic egotistical attachment to free will; the stubborn faith that humans shouldn't be deterministic in some way.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
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I don't really understand the premise for pursuing this path, particularly linking consciousness to some mysterious magic. "Consciousness" (self-reflection) pretty obviously seems a side-effect of the right sensory organs and some intelligence. Even computers can reflect on themselves (and other computers) if programmed a certain way, so there's little reason to believe it requires some special functionality not possible with macro physics.

I think the general gist of claiming it's "quantum" has to do with some idealistic egotistical attachment to free will; the stubborn faith that humans shouldn't be deterministic in some way.

First off, the oxymoron off the table; anything not meta-something requires quantum effects, cause well, reality.
Other than that I agree with you, the statistical expression required for "consciousness" is not lkmited to the biological neural network.
 

Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
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Well, that doesn't really answer the question if we're going to entertain the idea of quantum processors unless the implication is that normal binary processors can create consciousness. But that's far from being accepted dogma at this point.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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First off, the oxymoron off the table; anything not meta-something requires quantum effects, cause well, reality.
Other than that I agree with you, the statistical expression required for "consciousness" is not lkmited to the biological neural network.

You'll have to elaborate. Only "true" randomness requires some kind of qm effect, which is why it's popular with folks who believe consciousness is non-determined.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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Well, that doesn't really answer the question if we're going to entertain the idea of quantum processors unless the implication is that normal binary processors can create consciousness. But that's far from being accepted dogma at this point.

Why would consciousness require qm effects?
 
May 11, 2008
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That is a really interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

What got me thinking when he talked about maintaining the entanglement for such a long period, is why would the brain need it. And then i had to wonder about what happens to fresh memories that are not yet stored in neural connections. The hippocampus translates short term memories into long term memories. The hippocampus is also the part of the brain where new neurons are grown for to take over other neurons and for long term memory storage of new memories. What if the short term memories are not stored as pure chemicals or non stop firing in our brain but as forms of entanglement as described by Mr Fisher. When the new neurons are grown and travel to their destination to become part of the consciousness. The memory is stored.
That is one way to use quantum entanglement that can be maintained for such a long period.

It kind of fits the effect of that when getting an electric shock or a serious blow can cause short term memories to be forgotten.

Electron distribution is also amazing feature. Proteins are the biological equivalents of man made super atoms, only way more sophisticated and way more can be done then just mimicking properties of a lot more for life toxic elements.
A superatom is any cluster of atoms that seem to exhibit some of the properties of elemental atoms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superatom

The quantum mirage is also a very interesting discovery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mirage
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
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You'll have to elaborate. Only "true" randomness requires some kind of qm effect, which is why it's popular with folks who believe consciousness is non-determined.
I was getting at the fact that anything solid in this universe builds on quantum effects. nvm.
IMO nothing prevents an artificial intelligence ie. built on artificial neural networks to achieve "consciousness".. to achieve a space where consciousness can exists you just need a statistical field large enough so that it is not plausible by human standards to "prove".
At the end of the day what is consciousness?
"The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead" - band of brothers.

All that being said, at the end of the day, I believe there is an advantage to an analog perception of the world, it gives you an infinite sample space where as a digital one does not.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,212
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That is a really interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

What got me thinking when he talked about maintaining the entanglement for such a long period, is why would the brain need it. And then i had to wonder about what happens to fresh memories that are not yet stored in neural connections. The hippocampus translates short term memories into long term memories. The hippocampus is also the part of the brain where new neurons are grown for to take over other neurons and for long term memory storage of new memories. What if the short term memories are not stored as pure chemicals or non stop firing in our brain but as forms of entanglement as described by Mr Fisher. When the new neurons are grown and travel to their destination to become part of the consciousness. The memory is stored.
That is one way to use quantum entanglement that can be maintained for such a long period.

It kind of fits the effect of that when getting an electric shock or a serious blow can cause short term memories to be forgotten.

Electron distribution is also amazing feature. Proteins are the biological equivalents of man made super atoms, only way more sophisticated and way more can be done then just mimicking properties of a lot more for life toxic elements.
A superatom is any cluster of atoms that seem to exhibit some of the properties of elemental atoms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superatom

The quantum mirage is also a very interesting discovery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mirage

Memories by quantum entanglement? Wouldnt that be like a read-once memory, recalled once and then *poof* gone? ;).

Back in the 70ies+ we saw artificial neural nets do some "autistic" jobs really really well, a little subset of what we humans can do.
Now with deep learning and increased computational power we see this "autistic" intelligence broaden its field of expertise.
Given enough time, I dont see why it wont do a full 360.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
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I was getting at the fact that anything solid in this universe builds on quantum effects. nvm.
IMO nothing prevents an artificial intelligence ie. built on artificial neural networks to achieve "consciousness".. to achieve a space where consciousness can exists you just need a statistical field large enough so that it is not plausible by human standards to "prove".
At the end of the day what is consciousness?
"The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead" - band of brothers.

All that being said, at the end of the day, I believe there is an advantage to an analog perception of the world, it gives you an infinite sample space where as a digital one does not.

What you're saying doesn't make physical sense.

To start, it's certainly true that all matter interaction is "quantum" at some level, but generally quantum effects refers to phenomena which cannot be explained by a classical scale approximation.

However the question of what is consciousness is apropos. To a substantial degree this is a philosophical rather than scientific question, meaning it involves clarifying was is really meant by the terminology. I would posit that "consciousness" here refers to yet to be understood neural behavior, so the question as it's read by most people can never really be answered.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
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I guess the point I am coming from is this, if you cannot tell the artificial consciousness apart from the "real" consciousness, does it matter which is which?
It is the spooky action at a distance rabbit hole and whether you subscribe to an objective reality or not .. classical vs quantum.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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I guess the point I am coming from is this, if you cannot tell the artificial consciousness apart from the "real" consciousness, does it matter which is which?
It is the spooky action at a distance rabbit hole and whether you subscribe to an objective reality or not .. classical vs quantum.

Generally in science if some claim cannot be verified or at least provide some exceptional explanatory benefit then it's assumed to be untrue.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,212
15,619
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That is a really interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

What got me thinking when he talked about maintaining the entanglement for such a long period, is why would the brain need it. And then i had to wonder about what happens to fresh memories that are not yet stored in neural connections. The hippocampus translates short term memories into long term memories. The hippocampus is also the part of the brain where new neurons are grown for to take over other neurons and for long term memory storage of new memories. What if the short term memories are not stored as pure chemicals or non stop firing in our brain but as forms of entanglement as described by Mr Fisher. When the new neurons are grown and travel to their destination to become part of the consciousness. The memory is stored.
That is one way to use quantum entanglement that can be maintained for such a long period.

It kind of fits the effect of that when getting an electric shock or a serious blow can cause short term memories to be forgotten.

Electron distribution is also amazing feature. Proteins are the biological equivalents of man made super atoms, only way more sophisticated and way more can be done then just mimicking properties of a lot more for life toxic elements.
A superatom is any cluster of atoms that seem to exhibit some of the properties of elemental atoms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superatom

The quantum mirage is also a very interesting discovery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mirage

I had this train of thought some years back when all this entanglement business hit popsci. What would happen if you entangled two particles and moved one of them close to a black hole, separating them by time (you allready do that the second you move them apart, but the black hole picture is prettier).
Apparently that is doable
http://www.livescience.com/19975-spooky-quantum-entanglement.html
And then I went onto thinking "this is how we transcend to 4D beings", we entangle our memories today with the same memories of tomorrow and then simply make another choice yesterday and woops we are timelords :) .. easy peacy :)... and no I was not smoking funny grass at the time :).
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,212
15,619
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Generally in science if some claim cannot be verified or at least provide some exceptional explanatory benefit then it's assumed to be untrue.

That is the whole Einstein vs Bohr debacle back in the early 1900's ... quantum : leave your sanity at the door.
 
May 11, 2008
22,557
1,471
126
Memories by quantum entanglement? Wouldnt that be like a read-once memory, recalled once and then *poof* gone? ;).

Back in the 70ies+ we saw artificial neural nets do some "autistic" jobs really really well, a little subset of what we humans can do.
Now with deep learning and increased computational power we see this "autistic" intelligence broaden its field of expertise.
Given enough time, I dont see why it wont do a full 360.

Well, it was just an idea. But just like the chage in a dramcell is depleted when read and must be written again, so can also a new entanglement be created.
I am just having fun thinking and wondering about it. :)
 
May 11, 2008
22,557
1,471
126
I had this train of thought some years back when all this entanglement business hit popsci. What would happen if you entangled two particles and moved one of them close to a black hole, separating them by time (you allready do that the second you move them apart, but the black hole picture is prettier).
Apparently that is doable
http://www.livescience.com/19975-spooky-quantum-entanglement.html
And then I went onto thinking "this is how we transcend to 4D beings", we entangle our memories today with the same memories of tomorrow and then simply make another choice yesterday and woops we are timelords :) .. easy peacy :)... and no I was not smoking funny grass at the time :).


I posted a similar idea a few years back as well.
If we really can get entanglement to work at long distances, entanglement could be used for space probing. Just send a probe on a one way mission for example into the sun and read back the entanglement data from the particles we still have on earth. From their on, a lot of mathematics could do a good prediction what those particles in the sun experienced. I think i have watched to much star trek. :D
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
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At the risk of being chastised I'm going to say this is how some people are gifted with having the ability to be a medium.
 

ringtail

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2012
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The answer, as you obviously already know else you wouldn’t have posted this, is .... NO.

Quantum effects presume existence of the physical cosmos upon which you are standing. Quanta operate in the realm of matter, and matter in part includes photons which share some characteristics of physical matter but are on a little higher level than physical matter (photons are semiconscious, like an amoeba or something, but are not self-conscious, like you are).

Consciousness is antecedent to the “grosser” domain of physical matter where quantum effects live. Consciousness is in every instant flooding UP OUT from deeper, finer, unimaginably subtler reality and, if passing through unenlightened men, ultimately losing itself out in gross physical manifestation in this everyday world we see all around us. Flooding “out” in the sense that God is immanent, all –pervading, LIVING N O W, R I G H T H E R E, only fantastically deeper inside than you're able to perceive. That deeper, finer reality, ultimately is God.

This physical cosmos is, according to yogis who delve superhumanely-deeply in inward meditation, pretty near the bottom rung of God’s hierarchy of creation, with cascades of tiers upon uncountable tiers of reality-and they are all HAPPENING SIMULTANEOUSLY - RIGHT NOW and RIGHT HERE, in this spot but deeper inward. Consciousness tied to this physical level where you see quantum effects can dive much deeper, beyond the realm of quantum effects. (Physical up into Astral up into Casual up into pure Soul).

Intelligence and ability to perceive are also qualities that cascade “downward” like the rushing sound of a waterfall starting from some "higher," more refined level of reality, and cascading "down" (actually gushing "outward") from more refined levels of God's creation, down down down and losing itself to us here, pretty near the basement level of all vibratory creation. Mud-man.

Consciousness DOES NOT require quantum effects. Consciousness transcends the cosmos in which quantum effects manifest, is higher, superior, and exists eternally beyond quantum effects. Consciousness, a gift from God, is a VASTLY higher thing than some quantum effect that manifests in the "lower" observable world.

There's more. Saints say the upwelling, outflowing that's flooding up in every instant from finer dimensions has a quality of unimaginable intelligence and also LOVE. They say, if you knew how much God loves you you would die of joy.
 
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