Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Topic Title: Does anyone else remember the repeated vows that this administration wouldn't be involved in "nation building"?
Topic Summary: For some reason, this has stuck in my head recently...
And now we are in the biggest case of nation building since post-WWII Japan.
Remarkable.
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
What alternatives do you propose? Should we just leave a nation post-invasion and let it reconstruct itself/be invaded by someone else? The bottom line is that once a nation has been invaded, the reigning government deposed, and infrastructure damaged, someone has to rebuild that nation. Otherwise, it will simply be invaded again or fall into long-term anarchy.
Originally posted by: dahunan
First thing we should do is sign up all of our politicians children for mandatory military service.
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."
Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.
Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.
I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Topic Title: Does anyone else remember the repeated vows that this administration wouldn't be involved in "nation building"?
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Topic Title: Does anyone else remember the repeated vows that this administration wouldn't be involved in "nation building"?
Does anyone remember ANYTHING George Bush has said that was true since he gave his name when he was sworn into his first term? :roll:
Does anyone remember ANYTHING George Bush has said that was true since he gave his name when he was sworn into his first term?
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
What alternatives do you propose? Should we just leave a nation post-invasion and let it reconstruct itself/be invaded by someone else? The bottom line is that once a nation has been invaded, the reigning government deposed, and infrastructure damaged, someone has to rebuild that nation. Otherwise, it will simply be invaded again or fall into long-term anarchy.
[Speaking of U.S. bombing of Iraq's civilian infrastructure, Secretary of Defense] Cheney later told reporters, every Iraqi target was "perfectly legitimate," adding, "If I had to do it over again, I would do exactly the same thing."
Originally posted by: dahunan
First thing we should do is sign up all of our politicians children for mandatory military service.
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."
Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.
Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.
I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.
That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."
Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.
Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.
I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.
That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.
If Hitlery or McCain have their way, we'll probably increase troop levels in Iraq and invade Iran :laugh:
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."
Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.
Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.
I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.
That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.
If Hitlery or McCain have their way, we'll probably increase troop levels in Iraq and invade Iran :laugh:
What is so funny about that?
How does that help us address the point of the OP, which was (nominally, at least) about nation building? If we string up Bush et al., we're still in the same position that we're in now, aren't we?Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."
Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.
So you think leaving the Iraqi people to anarchy and potential conquest by Iran is a desirable outcome? I don't.Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.
I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
Why are you asking me? Am I the one making these decisions? No. I didn't denounce the current methods, either, so I'm not obliged to formulate an alternative, nor the objectives of the current method. I could propose some, but my car just died and I'm too pissed off to actually think about anything.Originally posted by: Brigandier
How long do we stay there? When are we done? Can any one just say this was a huge mistake and have an honest and open dialogue about our real options for getting out of there? I understand we cannot just pick up and leave, but can we not at least have a real plan for getting the hell out of there? too much free reign has been given to this poorly planned war. If the pro-war people can give a real definition of success and why we have to stay there, then go ahead and convince us, if it's just the same old vague, "until the job is done" line, then don't be confused when people vehemently denounce you.
Why do you want it to begin in '09. If you want it done, don't you want it to start now?Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."
Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.
Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.
I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.
That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.
Originally posted by: Gaard
Why do you want it to begin in '09. If you want it done, don't you want it to start now?Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."
Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.
Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.
I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.
That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.
Originally posted by: Gaard
Why do you want it to begin in '09. If you want it done, don't you want it to start now?Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."
Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.
Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.
I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.
That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.