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Does anyone else remember the repeated vows that this administration wouldn't be involved in "nation building"?

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,195
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And now we are in the biggest case of nation building since post-WWII Japan.

Remarkable.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,353
1
81
What alternatives do you propose? Should we just leave a nation post-invasion and let it reconstruct itself/be invaded by someone else? The bottom line is that once a nation has been invaded, the reigning government deposed, and infrastructure damaged, someone has to rebuild that nation. Otherwise, it will simply be invaded again or fall into long-term anarchy.
 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,195
0
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I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."

Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.

Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.

I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,912
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Topic Title: Does anyone else remember the repeated vows that this administration wouldn't be involved in "nation building"?
Topic Summary: For some reason, this has stuck in my head recently...

And now we are in the biggest case of nation building since post-WWII Japan.

Remarkable.
What about when he said he was the "Peace" President and changed it to the "War" President?

and Kerry was labeled as the "Flip-flopper"
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,912
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
What alternatives do you propose? Should we just leave a nation post-invasion and let it reconstruct itself/be invaded by someone else? The bottom line is that once a nation has been invaded, the reigning government deposed, and infrastructure damaged, someone has to rebuild that nation. Otherwise, it will simply be invaded again or fall into long-term anarchy.
So what?

Is Bush the President of Iraq?
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
1
0
First thing we should do is sign up all of our politicians children for mandatory military service.
 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,195
0
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
First thing we should do is sign up all of our politicians children for mandatory military service.
Amen!

*"fortunate son" by CCR playing in the background*
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,086
493
126
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."

Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.

Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.

I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.

That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Administrator
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
28
86
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel

Topic Title: Does anyone else remember the repeated vows that this administration wouldn't be involved in "nation building"?
Does anyone remember ANYTHING George Bush has said that was true since he gave his name when he was sworn into his first term? :roll:
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel

Topic Title: Does anyone else remember the repeated vows that this administration wouldn't be involved in "nation building"?
Does anyone remember ANYTHING George Bush has said that was true since he gave his name when he was sworn into his first term? :roll:
"No WMD's under here....."
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,034
1
61
Since OBL and al-Zawahiri are now in Pakistan, what we are doing in Afghanistan is nothing short of nation-building as well. So we have nation-building in both Iraq and Afghanistan, while we borrow money to give to the government of Pakistan who is harboring the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11.

This is one fucked-up foreign policy.

Supporting a candidate who will continue this absurdity after Bush and Cheney leave is as insane as the policy itself.
 

Brigandier

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2008
4,397
2
81
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
What alternatives do you propose? Should we just leave a nation post-invasion and let it reconstruct itself/be invaded by someone else? The bottom line is that once a nation has been invaded, the reigning government deposed, and infrastructure damaged, someone has to rebuild that nation. Otherwise, it will simply be invaded again or fall into long-term anarchy.
How long do we stay there? When are we done? Can any one just say this was a huge mistake and have an honest and open dialogue about our real options for getting out of there? I understand we cannot just pick up and leave, but can we not at least have a real plan for getting the hell out of there? too much free reign has been given to this poorly planned war. If the pro-war people can give a real definition of success and why we have to stay there, then go ahead and convince us, if it's just the same old vague, "until the job is done" line, then don't be confused when people vehemently denounce you.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,289
0
0
Topic: Does anyone else remember the repeated vows that this administration wouldn't be involved in "nation building"?

Since we bombed Iraq into the Stone Age in 1991 (when they were producing nearly 10k megawatts of electricity and 4 mb/day of oil); since we sanctioned them for 10 years preventing them from rebuilding their infrastructure; and since we continually targeted ""civilian infrastructure"" in our liberations ...

I'd say we owe them something.

From the Washington Post Weekly, July, 1991:

[Speaking of U.S. bombing of Iraq's civilian infrastructure, Secretary of Defense] Cheney later told reporters, every Iraqi target was "perfectly legitimate," adding, "If I had to do it over again, I would do exactly the same thing."

Well ... he did.
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
5,947
0
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
First thing we should do is sign up all of our politicians children for mandatory military service.
Definitely a step in the right direction. Include grandkids too, if of age.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
23,003
770
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."

Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.

Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.

I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.

That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.
If Hitlery or McCain have their way, we'll probably increase troop levels in Iraq and invade Iran :laugh:
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,086
493
126
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."

Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.

Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.

I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.

That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.
If Hitlery or McCain have their way, we'll probably increase troop levels in Iraq and invade Iran :laugh:
What is so funny about that?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
23,003
770
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."

Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.

Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.

I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.

That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.
If Hitlery or McCain have their way, we'll probably increase troop levels in Iraq and invade Iran :laugh:
What is so funny about that?
Theoretical incompetence is funny.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,826
83
91
making shit up with nothing to back it seems pretty funny too ;)

in any event... the american people had a chance to hold Bush accountable in 2004. they decided not to.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,353
1
81
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."

Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.
How does that help us address the point of the OP, which was (nominally, at least) about nation building? If we string up Bush et al., we're still in the same position that we're in now, aren't we?
Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.

I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
So you think leaving the Iraqi people to anarchy and potential conquest by Iran is a desirable outcome? I don't.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,353
1
81
Originally posted by: Brigandier
How long do we stay there? When are we done? Can any one just say this was a huge mistake and have an honest and open dialogue about our real options for getting out of there? I understand we cannot just pick up and leave, but can we not at least have a real plan for getting the hell out of there? too much free reign has been given to this poorly planned war. If the pro-war people can give a real definition of success and why we have to stay there, then go ahead and convince us, if it's just the same old vague, "until the job is done" line, then don't be confused when people vehemently denounce you.
Why are you asking me? Am I the one making these decisions? No. I didn't denounce the current methods, either, so I'm not obliged to formulate an alternative, nor the objectives of the current method. I could propose some, but my car just died and I'm too pissed off to actually think about anything.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."

Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.

Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.

I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.

That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.
Why do you want it to begin in '09. If you want it done, don't you want it to start now?

 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,826
83
91
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."

Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.

Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.

I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.

That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.
Why do you want it to begin in '09. If you want it done, don't you want it to start now?
bush is not going to be impeached.

there's absolutely no way it's going to happen, the democratic leaders in congress have said as much.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,086
493
126
Originally posted by: Gaard
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I propose that the people who led us into that war be held accountable. Every time the subject of Iraq comes up, the response is always "we're here now, let's deal with the situation."

Well, we didn't have to be here. You don't let people off the hook for such a monumental blunder. And it was obvious from day one (at least to those of us with a backbone who opposed it all along). We NEVER had any strategy.

Today, we are having more hearings on Iraq, with NO victory conditions defined. We have no way of measuring success or failure, but we "can't" pull out because of the fear of instability in the region.

I say we can and should pull out. Yes, we will have caused a disaster, but no less so than by remaining in a country unwanted and spending billions of dollars with no strategy and no end in sight.
You hold them accountable by voting them out of office. This includes the administration and the senators who continue to fund the war and originally authorized it. Blunders happen in war all the time. We are human afterall. I can think of a few in WWII that were simply ridiculous.

That said I'd like to see a draw down of troops to begin in 09 to where we have a token presence within Iraq by the middle to end of 2010.
Why do you want it to begin in '09. If you want it done, don't you want it to start now?
It is starting now and will through July. From there nothing is going to happen until the change of the guard. It can happen anytime really. I just tossed the beginning of 09 out there to coincide with a new administation.

 

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