does a PSU have more wordk to convert 220 volts in PC voltages than when it gets 110 volt.

boran

Golden Member
Jun 17, 2001
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now while reading the forums here this question popped up, my knowledge of fysics is very bad, so I have no idea bout it,

logic would say that scince 110 is closer to the 12, 5 and 3.3 volt that less work would be required to attain these voltages, then if the voltage would be 220 (like overhere)

thanks for any answers.
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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The amount of work is the same.

The first stage in the PSU is the rectifier (this is composed of 4 diodes) which converts the AC into DC. In 230V mode the diodes are connected in a conventional bridge rectifier configuration - producing two rails with 340V between them. In 110V mode the diodes are connected as a voltage doubling rectifier - also yielding 340V.

The next stage of the PSU operates off the DC - in both cases the voltage difference is 340 V - so the PSU works identically in both configurations.
 

Harabecw

Senior member
Apr 28, 2003
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I think you're trying to compare the PSU to how a program may work, in the sense that it may need more CPU cycles.
It doesn't work that way.
 

Amorphus

Diamond Member
Mar 31, 2003
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no, you're wrong. =P

if what I'm assuming he's assuming is correct, then he is going by - larger voltage difference = larger workload for the PSU to convert to those rails.

and technically, he';s correct, since the diodes are doing more work since they're connected in a different circuit, as defined by the switch you flip. but its only that first stage, everything else is a universal design, thanks to Mr. Rectifier.
 

Harabecw

Senior member
Apr 28, 2003
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The point was that in the PSU is meant to give you xxx, and it does this whether you use 110v or 220v. I think I'm trying to answer something while boran didn't mean it that way... o_O
 

Brie

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May 27, 2003
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The first stage in the PSU is the rectifier (this is composed of 4 diodes) which converts the AC into DC.

Isnt the first stage the stepping down of the AC with a transformer?

I think 120vac and 220vac would fry the diodes we are talking about here
 

JSSheridan

Golden Member
Sep 20, 2002
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The transformer is the initial stage of an AC/DC converter. It's not so much the voltage applied to the circuit, but the current going through the diodes that would hurt them. There are diodes that can handle 1k amp of current, but those will hurt your wallet. The efficiency of a 220V supply would be about the same as that of a 110V system, since the transformer is the only component that is different.

Mark R, where did you learn about electronics. I haven't seen it described that way before.

Peace.
 

syberscott

Senior member
Feb 20, 2003
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The transformer does not have to be the first step in a power supply. In a switch mode power supply the voltage is rectified and then put through a DC-DC converter. A small transformer is used for the switching at about 20-300 KHz. I think that computer PSU's are either a forward or half bridge switch mode power supply.
You guys are thinking about bulky linear power supplies which are hardly ever used now except for low noise applications.
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I took an old "300 W" ATX PSU apart to see how it worked - it wouldn't power my new Athlon motherboard, so I sacrificed it to see how it worked.

Unfortunately, I've now thrown the circuit diagram I drew away, but I'm pretty sure it used a half-bridge design.

I divided the circuit it to stages:

1: Surge supression, mains filtering and PFC.
2: High voltage rectifier + reservoir capacitors
3: High voltage switching transistors (rated for 600 V) - essentially these convert the high-voltage DC into high-frequency, high-voltage AC
4: Transformer producing +/- 12V and +/-5V
5: Low voltage rectifiers and filtering inductors/capacitors
6: 3.3V regulator drawing power from +5V line
7: Feedback circuit which measures the voltage on the +5 and +12 lines and adjusts the power delievered to the transformer in stage 3.

Seperate to the main supply is a seperate supply (comprising steps 3 and 4 above) used to provide the +5V SB supply which is also used to energise the control circuits for the main supply.


Transformers which run directly off the mains supply can be used - and have been used for decades in the past. They can still be found in cheap 'pregnant plugs' and similar 'universal adaptors'. They have disadvantages though:

1: They are bulky - They need large amounts of iron, and correspondingly large amounts of copper wire wound around them.
2: They are heavy (see above)
3: They are expensive - In order to get reasonable efficiency the iron core has to be laminated, and large amounts of heavy guage copper wire are needed to keep resistance down.
4: They are noisy - transformers often buzz at 50/60 Hz as the mains voltage rises and falls.
5: You still need to have voltage regulators afterwards in order to ensure stable voltages.

Modern switching supplies work by making the transformer more efficient. They generate high-voltage DC directly from the mains, and then convert it to high frequency AC (20 - 100 kHz). At high frequencies it is possible to use much smaller transformers made of ferrite. Ferrite is much more efficient than iron as well as much lighter. (The 400 W ferrite transformer in a modern ATX PSU, is about the same size (but half the weight) of a 4W conventional transformer found in a cheap power supply). At high frequencies, any vibrations in the transformer are ultra-sonic and therefore not audible. Finally you have the other advantage of regulation - the chip that controls the switching transistors monitors the output voltages and adjusts the power input to match - no further voltage regulators are required.

I think 120vac and 220vac would fry the diodes we are talking about here
Nope - you can get high voltage diodes easily enough. The 10 A, 400 V diodes used in an computer PSU are a commodity item and available for a couple of cents each.

I've seen 20 kV diodes - they were used in a PSU which got DC by rectifying the 11,000V 3 phase supply directly. They are about a foot long. I didn't ask the price, but they're unlikely to be cheap.


<B>Mark R</B>, where did you learn about electronics. I haven't seen it described that way before.

No formal teaching since high school. Just picked up what I know by taking things apart, reading things on the web etc.

P.S. I'm looking for a reference about loop compensating SMPSs - Can't find anything useful on the web. (I'm thinking about building an-in car ATX supply - probably a 100 W flyback converter based around a UC3844 or similar).
 

syberscott

Senior member
Feb 20, 2003
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Mark R, great post. You really expanded on what I had said.
I do disagree with one point about linear power supplies.
"4: They are noisy - transformers often buzz at 50/60 Hz as the mains voltage rises and falls."
Linear power supplies can have very low noise and they are still used extensively in medical applications for this very reason. You may be talking about sound noise though and in that case you are correct.