Does a LAMP system in a small business environment require an IT guy?

Kaido

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Feb 14, 2004
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Just curious...if you were to set up a LAMP system (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP) for small businesses, would they require an IT guy to run them, or, if it were well-designed, could it just run forever without problems? I know of several small businesses (> 50 employees) that could benefit from a web-based MySQL system, but don't have a full-time or even part-time IT guy at their disposal. I already have a full-time job and several projects and I don't have the time to maintain other business' systems, but I could do the programming and installation for a job. I'm not familiar enough with production-environment systems to know whether a basic box like that would need an IT guy, even part time. Ideas/comments?
 

Brazen

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Jul 14, 2000
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Originally posted by: Kaido
Just curious...if you were to set up a LAMP system (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP) for small businesses, would they require an IT guy to run them, or, if it were well-designed, could it just run forever without problems? I know of several small businesses (> 50 employees) that could benefit from a web-based MySQL system, but don't have a full-time or even part-time IT guy at their disposal. I already have a full-time job and several projects and I don't have the time to maintain other business' systems, but I could do the programming and installation for a job. I'm not familiar enough with production-environment systems to know whether a basic box like that would need an IT guy, even part time. Ideas/comments?

For that box alone, no it would not need, nor could it really benefit from even a part-time IT guy. A previous employer had a Sendmail box running for 8 years without anybody on staff who knew how to do anything except add users. I worked there for three years and I don't even remember it ever needing to be rebooted.

Now if for some reason, the box does have a problem, either software or hardware, are you going to be prepared to support it, or will they be up the creak?

They will of course need somebody to put together and update the web pages, but pretty much anyone with Dreamweaver and some spare time can do that.

Edit: that Sendmail box was only decommissioned because they wanted webmail and bought a Windows based package to do it.
 

spyordie007

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May 28, 2001
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I agree, so long as:
1. The box is setup correctly in the first place (locked down, running minimal extra software, etc.)
2. The hardware is solid and safe enough to not need babysitting (a hotspare drive and redundant PS are very good ideas, plus limit physical access to it)
3. Someone (could be one of the users) takes on responsibility for backups (i.e. swapping tapes)
4. Someone takes responsibility to do thigns like updates down the road if they are needed (i.e. there's an apache or mysql voulnerability)
 

drag

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Jul 4, 2002
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I would probably be simplier to rent space or pay monthly for a web server from a hosting company.

Your ISP may have deals on Linux server space, and there are lots of relatively inexpensive hosting companies out there.

Otherwise the traditional situation for small businesses using Unix enviroments (very common with SCO Unix in the past, and still is. Most those people are migrating to Linux) is to hire somebody to come in and set it up; setup backups, setup updates, make simple instructions for taking care of backups etc etc. and then later on when they need changes they simply call the guy back, or have another guy come in.

It's kinda like a plumber, he comes in, you pay him hourly for his work after you agree apon a reasonable bid and so on and so forth.

The OS is reliable enough and if you buy quality hardware then it usually works out.

The key to it is very good backup scedual and such. So if the server blew up or caught on fire or something then another person can come in and get everything working again within a few hours.

Generally the best way/most relaible to get that is to do full backups a few times a week and use a very robust and tested automated way to do it. (not just bash/perl scripts unless you REALY know what your doing) (the key is to test backups everyonce and a while to not let things slip.. the idea is that you have no server, no documentation, no script, no nothing, just the backup media and new computer system and get things running again.)

It's not unusual at all for small businesses to have no staff to work with their Unix servers at all and rely on contractual situations for maintainance and such. Plus you can easily setup remote access thru SSH/X11 and such so even if something goes wrong 9 out of 10 times you can fix it off site and over the phone. Used to be people would setup dedicated phone lines just for that sort of thing.

At least that's the way it seems like to me.
 

Kaido

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drag, that sounds like a great idea. what is today's common backup material - tapes?

How does this sound for a backup system:
1. Daily incremental backups: backup to two drives in RAID 1 (mirroring)
2. Weekly backup: to DVDr (single or dual layer)

Basically, every day, the system backs itself up to the RAID 1 setup. Then, on weekends, an admin sticks a DVDr in and lets it burn a complete backup copy. This way, they always have a hard copy every week and they also have a complete daily backup. Restoration can be done automatically (like one-click) through a web interface (Apache/PHP). Backups can be automatically tested every 6 months for verification that it works.

10-year system:
1. 10 64-disc heavy-duty CD cases
2. 600 DVDr discs
3. 2 spare drives for the RAID 1 backup system
4. 1 spare drive for the server itself
5. Ghost-style server restore disc with the Linux system on it

I need to figure out how much space they'd be using, of course. I don't know if small companies are going to use a full 4 gigs of backup (DVD) just in a MySQL database, or if they're going to use way more. Database stuff is very new to me. Anyway, how does that sound?
 

nweaver

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Jan 21, 2001
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I would say get a decent tape library (HP Surestore) and set up the backups. Then once a week, the door unlocks, joe shmoe pulls out tape 1 and replaces it with a new tape, ships the old one off to the offsite repository (or ships the one from last week off).

Then you can do full backups every few days/weeks (depending on needs) and incremental every day, so you are at most 1 day behind. I have a hard time calling a raid 1 array part of a "backup solution". Kinda like fingernails on the chalkboard thing.
 

Brazen

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Originally posted by: Kaido
drag, that sounds like a great idea. what is today's common backup material - tapes?

How does this sound for a backup system:
1. Daily incremental backups: backup to two drives in RAID 1 (mirroring)
2. Weekly backup: to DVDr (single or dual layer)

Basically, every day, the system backs itself up to the RAID 1 setup. Then, on weekends, an admin sticks a DVDr in and lets it burn a complete backup copy. This way, they always have a hard copy every week and they also have a complete daily backup. Restoration can be done automatically (like one-click) through a web interface (Apache/PHP). Backups can be automatically tested every 6 months for verification that it works.

10-year system:
1. 10 64-disc heavy-duty CD cases
2. 600 DVDr discs
3. 2 spare drives for the RAID 1 backup system
4. 1 spare drive for the server itself
5. Ghost-style server restore disc with the Linux system on it

I need to figure out how much space they'd be using, of course. I don't know if small companies are going to use a full 4 gigs of backup (DVD) just in a MySQL database, or if they're going to use way more. Database stuff is very new to me. Anyway, how does that sound?

It doesn't sound too bad to start with, but expecting that to last for 10 years I would say is a tad unrealistic. Depending on the how much use they get out of the system, I would not be surprised to see even the smallest businesses outgrow 4 gigs of backup in a year or two. They would be better off starting with a tape backup so they can easily and cheapily expand their backup capacity when needed.
 

LiLithTecH

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Jul 28, 2002
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Originally posted by: Kaido
drag, that sounds like a great idea. what is today's common backup material - tapes?

How does this sound for a backup system:
1. Daily incremental backups: backup to two drives in RAID 1 (mirroring)
2. Weekly backup: to DVDr (single or dual layer)

Basically, every day, the system backs itself up to the RAID 1 setup. Then, on weekends, an admin sticks a DVDr in and lets it burn a complete backup copy. This way, they always have a hard copy every week and they also have a complete daily backup. Restoration can be done automatically (like one-click) through a web interface (Apache/PHP). Backups can be automatically tested every 6 months for verification that it works.

10-year system:
1. 10 64-disc heavy-duty CD cases
2. 600 DVDr discs
3. 2 spare drives for the RAID 1 backup system
4. 1 spare drive for the server itself
5. Ghost-style server restore disc with the Linux system on it

I need to figure out how much space they'd be using, of course. I don't know if small companies are going to use a full 4 gigs of backup (DVD) just in a MySQL database, or if they're going to use way more. Database stuff is very new to me. Anyway, how does that sound?



The one commonly overlooked item is storing the BACKUPS offsite.
You also need to Rotate the Tapes for it to be of any use.

Same goes for Optical media.
 

drag

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Jul 4, 2002
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Now keeping in mind that I've never realy done any serious administration, I think I prefer optical media for backups, unless you have a whole mess of information to backup.

There are a few reasons for this. The first one is that the cost of tapes and the tape drive is very high compared to dvd disks. Compare the cost of a 3-4 high-quality dvd drives with a few hundred dvd blanks vs a full fledged tape drive + tapes.

dvds are basicly disposable after your finished using them... you can end up doing things like being able to make full backups a few times a week with a 'archival' backup every weekend that you save, and then store that in a secure storage place. That way you can end up with full backups that are saved going back thru the company's history that will contain multiple revisions of files and such. Say if you got hacked and you didn't realise it for a month you don't want all your aviable backups to be only aviable from the machine during the time it was root'd.

Say if you ended up 'archiving' 2 double-sided dvds a week. Well then the entire years worth of backups can be kept in a object about the size of a shoebox... That's about a 104 dvds. So the storage costs are relatively low. Of course if the amount of data you require to save is about a hundred dvds a week, then obviously that's becoming silly.

Another advantage with DVDs are is that it's a ubiquitous media. Almost any semi-modern computer will be able read the disks. Even if you choose a dvd version that's fairly exotic, like double-sided, or DVD-ram, you can be reasonably sure that you can run down to the store and get a device that will read them properly.

With a tape drive, they are much more rare. Say you have a fire in the computer room/closet and the tape drive is obiterated, or a electrical surge takes it out.. or it just fails. How long/difficult/expensive is it going to cost to find a replacement to read the backups? So in your off-site storage will you have to store a second tape drive there too, or maybe you'd have to have a support contract to make sure that one is aviable the day you need it. But it's hard to beat being able to run down to Compusa and get a new drive in under 20 minutes, or being able to read the backup onto your latpop or whatnot.

Then since the price overhead is low it would be easy to upgrade to newer DVD technologies over time and if you pay attention to at least read backward compatability then as your storage needs increase so can the capacity of the drives. With tapes since you have a higher investment in the media and drives and backward compatability issues and such it makes it more difficult.

However on the other hand.. Tapes are much more convienient and are probably much more relaible in terms of actual media you end up with. You don't have to worry so much about bad burns.. for instance if the DMA access gets turned off for the dvd drive by some freakish bios thing, then if you don't test your media with optical you could end up with all your backups being full of errors and bad burns.

If you have a couple terrabytes worth of data you need to keep safe then probably optical is silly.

Also they are probably easier to do more constant backups.

It all depends on the volume of material you have to keep safe and the frequency of backups.

And the difficulty of managing the backups is very important, too. Since there would be no onsite administrator your going to have to depend on a secretary or owner or somebody like that to manage the backups.

If it's too expensive, complex, or annoying then that dramaticly increases the likelyhood that it won't be done, or that it won't be done properly. Most lay-people don't understand the importance of backups and after months and maybe years of 'everything just works' it's highly likely that they won't get done properly and they'll lapse into bad habits.

The most reliable and very superior way of doing backups is full backups every evening, and then a offsite storage for some of those. But that's expensive and irritating.

It's popular to do incremental backups, which I don't like as much, but it's still usefull...

The thing is is how much time can the business afford to loose? Everybody has different needs and such.

If it's just for a static website or a website that shows off the company catalog or something then it maybe fairly safe to only do a backup of it every month or so. Then again if it's a small business and they set it up so that contractors place order for thousands of dollars worth of material thru the website daily then loosing a couple days of data would be devastating.

If you do incremental backups to a second computer with disks, then do real backups on secure media every weekend.. then how is it going to work out if there is a electrical storm and all your computers are fried friday evening before backups are done... Will the company be able to handle having a weeks worth of data erased?

A lot of places would be able to handle that. A lot of places wouldn't. Keep in mind that most companies are increasing dependant on computer systems and that MOST companies that suffer massive data corruption/loss DO go out of business. It's a fact.

Now this is just a LAMP server, so it's probably non critical. I don't know what they are using it for or anything like that.

But there are nice ways to do it, for example:

Say you get the server setup, total size of the DB + software isn't going to be more then 6 gigs. It's a 5 day a week 7:30-7:30 workday enviroment.

In the boss's secretaries computer you stick in a couple very nice dvd drives and make sure the machine is plenty fast to handle the information and you setup a nice automated thing. Every monday, wensday, and friday night before leaving work she pops in a couple dvd disks. It sends a email to her, her boss, and you on the status of the backups (successfull, fail, no disks, etc). Once a month or so the backups get tested/looked at to make sure that everything is still working. Monday morning she takes the friday's dvds and sticks them in nice jeweled cases with a nice printed out lables and she sticks them in a UPS envelope and mails them to the off-site storage place.

So that way you end up with 3 full backups a week. If a electrical storm happens over night and takes out the computer closet, then the backups are hopefully done and in a different room. If the boss did it then he may get lazy and blow it off, with the secretary doing it with easy to read notifications to interested parties then it's more likely to get done. And then offsite storage is taken care off.

Even if the entire building was destroyed in a tornado or whatnot then the most possible they could loose would be a weeks worth of data. The offsite storage could even be in a different geographical region without increasing costs by much.

So that's one idea.

Were I work we only do backups on the weekend, they go to tape, and they sent to offsite storage. On the monday the delivery guy comes back drops off last week's backup and picks up the new stuff. It's my job, and two other people's, to make sure that they run and all that.

so those are my thoughts on the subject.
 

nweaver

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Jan 21, 2001
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when talking cost, realize that with Optical, it's damn hard to automate, and you have to pay the person to stand there at the machine burning DVD's. If this is small backups, then it would be OK, but it is definatly not enterprise level. My wife, is not computer savvy, but she can change the tapes every monday and drop the old one in a fedex envelope.