Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations

[DucatiMonster696]

This is fucking outrageous. The more government grows the more it tries to revoke the rights of citizens in a attempt to justify its bloated existence.

Edit: It is additional disturbing and insane just how much evidence there is against big government in this case and how they manufactured a crisis in order to further clamp down a constitutional right for all Americans. Hope and Change indeed.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_1...furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations


Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.


In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."


More Fast and Furious coverage:

Memos contradict Holder on Fast and Furious
Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico
Gunrunning scandal uncovered at the ATF

On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."

This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles."

The Gun Dealers' Quandary

Several gun dealers who cooperated with ATF told CBS News and Congressional investigators they only went through with suspicious sales because ATF asked them to.

Sometimes it was against the gun dealer's own best judgment.

Read the email

In April, 2010 a licensed gun dealer cooperating with ATF was increasingly concerned about selling so many guns. "We just want to make sure we are cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to the bad guys," writes the gun dealer to ATF Phoenix officials, "(W)e were hoping to put together something like a letter of understanding to alleviate concerns of some type of recourse against us down the road for selling these items."

Read the email

ATF's group supervisor on Fast and Furious David Voth assures the gun dealer there's nothing to worry about. "We (ATF) are continually monitoring these suspects using a variety of investigative techniques which I cannot go into detail."

Two months later, the same gun dealer grew more agitated.

"I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys. I guess I am looking for a bit of reassurance that the guns are not getting south or in the wrong hands...I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk of agents (sic) safety because I have some very close friends that are US Border Patrol agents in southern AZ as well as my concern for all the agents (sic) safety that protect our country."

"It's like ATF created or added to the problem so they could be the solution to it and pat themselves on the back," says one law enforcement source familiar with the facts. "It's a circular way of thinking."

The Justice Department and ATF declined to comment. ATF officials mentioned in this report did not respond to requests from CBS News to speak with them.

The "Demand Letter 3" Debate

The two sides in the gun debate have long clashed over whether gun dealers should have to report multiple rifle sales. On one side, ATF officials argue that a large number of semi-automatic, high-caliber rifles from the U.S. are being used by violent cartels in Mexico. They believe more reporting requirements would help ATF crack down. On the other side, gun rights advocates say that's unconstitutional, and would not make a difference in Mexican cartel crimes.

Two earlier Demand Letters were initiated in 2000 and affected a relatively small number of gun shops. Demand Letter 3 was to be much more sweeping, affecting 8,500 firearms dealers in four southwest border states: Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas. ATF chose those states because they "have a significant number of crime guns traced back to them from Mexico." The reporting requirements were to apply if a gun dealer sells two or more long guns to a single person within five business days, and only if the guns are semi-automatic, greater than .22 caliber and can be fitted with a detachable magazine.

On April 25, 2011, ATF announced plans to implement Demand Letter 3. The National Shooting Sports Foundation is suing the ATF to stop the new rules. It calls the regulation an illegal attempt to enforce a law Congress never passed. ATF counters that it has reasonably targeted guns used most often to "commit violent crimes in Mexico, especially by drug gangs."

Reaction

Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, is investigating Fast and Furious, as well as the alleged use of the case to advance gun regulations. "There's plenty of evidence showing that this administration planned to use the tragedies of Fast and Furious as rationale to further their goals of a long gun reporting requirement. But, we've learned from our investigation that reporting multiple long gun sales would do nothing to stop the flow of firearms to known straw purchasers because many Federal Firearms Dealers are already voluntarily reporting suspicious transactions. It's pretty clear that the problem isn't lack of burdensome reporting requirements."

On July 12, 2011, Sen. Grassley and Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., wrote Attorney General Eric Holder, whose Justice Department oversees ATF. They asked Holder whether officials in his agency discussed how "Fast and Furious could be used to justify additional regulatory authorities." So far, they have not received a response. CBS News asked the Justice Department for comment and context on ATF emails about Fast and Furious and Demand Letter 3, but officials declined to speak with us.

"In light of the evidence, the Justice Department's refusal to answer questions about the role Operation Fast and Furious was supposed to play in advancing new firearms regulations is simply unacceptable," Rep. Issa told CBS News.

Edit: Added links provide by CBS of ATF agent emails.

 

[drebo]

Yes, because we all know that criminals will walk in to the police station and turn in their guns once they're made illegal.

How well's that working out for Chicago?

 

[davmat787]

That the .gov would use Fast & Furious as justification for further gun control was something many surmised when it became news. Why else would they willingly sell these guns to end up in cartel hands?

But hey, the ends justify the means, right?

 

[hal2kilo]

That the .gov would use Fast & Furious as justification for further gun control was something many surmised when it became news. Why else would they willingly sell these guns to end up in cartel hands?

But hey, the ends justify the means, right?

I'm defacto not allowed to comment on these threads since I've never owned a gun, never have thought I needed one, and have a sickening memory of my dad buying the first piece of shit Saturday Night Special after the post Martin Luther King assination riots that happened in DC.

 

[airdata]

The government gon' government.

 

[werepossum]

I agree with DucatiMonster about the horrendousness of the action, but it doesn't necessarily come from Obama. The BATFE is institutionally batshit crazy evil; they do this shit under every President. Holder needs to go though, as do several layers below him who actively lied to Congress attempting to cover this up. But the real solution is to abolish the BATFE and fold its responsibilities into the FBI, a much more respected, capable, and law-abiding government entity.

 

[waggy]

WTF i swear the more that comes out about this the worse it is. I said it before but everyone who authorized it needs to sit in jail. This was a stupid idea and shit sounds treason to me. trying to get our rights taken away.

who the fuck thought it would be a good idea anyway? ugh

 

[spidey07]

You don't remember the rhetoric out of the obama administration just a few years ago? Kept saying how american guns are going to drug dealers and are the main source of violence? Hell, you even had the mexican president chastising America in our freaking house to the cheers and applause of democrats to stop the flow of guns?

Fast and furious used to push gun regulation? I'll file this under "no shit".

Notice how that whole line has been dropped since fast and furious, not a peep from this administration or media about "american guns being funneled to mexico and we need to do something!" "50% of guns used in mexican drug war came from america!" Not a peep.

 

[airdata]

The government gon' government.

I agree with DucatiMonster about the horrendousness of the action, but it doesn't necessarily come from Obama. The BATFE is institutionally batshit crazy evil; they do this shit under every President. Holder needs to go though, as do several layers below him who actively lied to Congress attempting to cover this up. But the real solution is to abolish the BATFE and fold its responsibilities into the FBI, a much more respected, capable, and law-abiding government entity.

Exactly. Anybody who flips this into an anti Obama thing is simply a fool. There are a great many aspects of government that really don't change between presidents. Sure, Obama is in office now and could be seen as responsible. But some of this stuff was also done under the Bush administration.

If you're going to be anti government, don't be half assed about it and pretend there is a good and a bad side to it.

 

[MotF Bane]

A program called "Fast and Furious" had zero chance at being a good idea, or at working well.

 

[waggy]

You don't remember the rhetoric out of the obama administration just a few years ago? Kept saying how american guns are going to drug dealers and are the main source of violence? Hell, you even had the mexican president chastising America in our freaking house to the cheers and applause of democrats to stop the flow of guns?

Fast and furious used to push gun regulation? I'll file this under "no shit".

Notice how that whole line has been dropped since fast and furious, not a peep from this administration or media about "american guns being funneled to mexico and we need to do something!" "50% of guns used in mexican drug war came from america!" Not a peep.

true. BUT i think thats more because once it came out obama didn't want to be linked to it NOT that he used it as a plot to revoke guns. (though i do think some in the goverment had that as a 2nd use of the plan)


but i believe the idea started befor Obama (at least i recall reading something that said it did)

 

[thraashman]

I agree with DucatiMonster about the horrendousness of the action, but it doesn't necessarily come from Obama. The BATFE is institutionally batshit crazy evil; they do this shit under every President. Holder needs to go though, as do several layers below him who actively lied to Congress attempting to cover this up. But the real solution is to abolish the BATFE and fold its responsibilities into the FBI, a much more respected, capable, and law-abiding government entity.

I don't know if I agree that the ATF needs to be abolished, but they certainly need to have some of their powers reviewed, decreased, or revoked. A program like Fast & Furious should be something that is under the fold of the FBI as you said. There is generally some redundancy in government agencies and some review to streamline is necessary.

Then again, we all know how Washington works. Nothing happens without review and study (much of which is a good thing, acting without knowledge is stupid). Then after the extensive and sometimes expensive review, a majority of the time Congress chooses to ignore any or all recommendations of the study they ordered.

 

[irishScott]

Exactly. Anybody who flips this into an anti Obama thing is simply a fool. There are a great many aspects of government that really don't change between presidents. Sure, Obama is in office now and could be seen as responsible. But some of this stuff was also done under the Bush administration.

If you're going to be anti government, don't be half assed about it and pretend there is a good and a bad side to it.

I don't think Obama directly ordered it or anything, but the question is if it came to his attention would he have stopped it or, knowing that it could be used to support gun regulation and rally his party, played politics and supported it? Obama is not pro-gun, which in the political world means he is either passively or aggressively anti-gun. He's already called for multiple long gun sales reports from the border states, which lines up perfectly with the evidence in the article down to the time table. Coincidence?

 

[airdata]

I don't think Obama directly ordered it or anything, but the question is if it came to his attention would he have stopped it or, knowing that it could be used to support gun regulation and rally his party, played politics and supported it? Obama is not pro-gun, which in the political world means he is either passively or aggressively anti-gun. He's already called for multiple long gun sales reports from the border states, which lines up perfectly with the evidence in the article down to the time table. Coincidence?

The politics of today operate under the look away, pretend it's not happening policy.

 

[werepossum]

I don't know if I agree that the ATF needs to be abolished, but they certainly need to have some of their powers reviewed, decreased, or revoked. A program like Fast & Furious should be something that is under the fold of the FBI as you said. There is generally some redundancy in government agencies and some review to streamline is necessary.

Then again, we all know how Washington works. Nothing happens without review and study (much of which is a good thing, acting without knowledge is stupid). Then after the extensive and sometimes expensive review, a majority of the time Congress chooses to ignore any or all recommendations of the study they ordered.

Unfortunately that will never happen. Like any large organization, government's first duty is to protect and preserve government. It's like meetings; pick any problem, no matter how grave, and start holding meetings on it. Eventually the meetings are more important than the problem. If they aren't careful, charities have the same problem.

I don't think Obama directly ordered it or anything, but the question is if it came to his attention would he have stopped it or, knowing that it could be used to support gun regulation and rally his party, played politics and supported it? Obama is not pro-gun, which in the political world means he is either passively or aggressively anti-gun. He's already called for multiple long gun sales reports from the border states, which lines up perfectly with the evidence in the article down to the time table. Coincidence?

He's certainly taking advantage of it, which isn't surprising. Politics doesn't operate under the principle of right and wrong, but merely right and left. Right and wrong are far too often judged solely whom is doing it at the moment. While Obama is anti-gun and takes advantage of the propaganda value, if it were a Democrat administration he'd be demanding that heads roll. Similarly, if this was under a Republican administration the Republicans would still be holding hearings, but with the assumption that this was undercutting the President, not with the assumption that this comes from the President. Self, then party, then ideology, then country. Only outliers like Paul and Kucinich truly put ideology in front of party.

The politics of today operate under the look away, pretend it's not happening policy.

Agreed. Even the historic '94 Republicans never actually cut any departments, in spite of their rhetoric. It's one thing to make a political issue of something, but quite another to take major action. Because major action makes enemies, and a pissed-off somebody won't vote for you or give you money.

 

[theeedude]

It's CBS, aka mainstream media, so it must be false

 

[bfdd]

just shut them down. sorry anyone who's employed with the BATFE, but your job has to go. any politician who backs the BATFE should be forced to quit as well.

 

[Texashiker]

In other words, "Fast and Furious" was a false flag operation.

 

[bfdd]

btw good comment on the page, person after my own heart. i feel basically the same.

by lagunagal December 8, 2011 5:08 PM EST
The Pugs are sloppy, incoherent and tan in a can crass, the Dems are the entitled arrogant idiots and no I'm no Ron Paul supporter. After the baby Bush and Barack Obama I've had it with overt leadership hypocrisy. Even cockroaches will scatter when the lights turn on, not D.C., they 'll look you straight in the eye and tell you green is black saying this is not what it looks like all the while taking billions from all of us for their thieving discretional payoffs. I'm done with it and I'm done with both parties that have spent this nation into oblivion simply to protect their power hence votes. I mean c'mon, Congress voted themselves the use of corporate insider information without liability as they deem fit? This is tantamount to a child using his parents ATM card to purchase school supplies then goes to FAO Schwartz and buys half the store. Who me? Whad I say, whad I do? It's long past the time to pull the plug and say pound sand D.C.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Exactly. Anybody who flips this into an anti Obama thing is simply a fool. There are a great many aspects of government that really don't change between presidents. Sure, Obama is in office now and could be seen as responsible. But some of this stuff was also done under the Bush administration.

If you're going to be anti government, don't be half assed about it and pretend there is a good and a bad side to it.

That would be a fair point if Obama had done anything about this after it came out. As long as Holder is the AG it's more than reasonable to attack Obama for this.

 

[werepossum]

In other words, "Fast and Furious" was a false flag operation.

Exactly.

That would be a fair point if Obama had done anything about this after it came out. As long as Holder is the AG it's more than reasonable to attack Obama for this.

It's fair to attack Obama on this as long as you admit that Bush would have done exactly the same thing, except obviously he wouldn't have tried to capitalize on the disinformation created because he's on the other side of the issue. Neither party is willing to take on the BATFE in a major way, so for the foreseeable future it's still "screw up, move up."

 

[bfdd]

In other words, "Fast and Furious" was a false flag operation.

So it was treason.

Co-worker and I were talking about this. He doesn't think anyone besides the police and military should be able to own firearms. He said he doesn't trust me or the average citizen enough with them because losing 1 life is to many. I asked him why he trusts the government which has been fucking us over for the last so many decades more than his neighbor who has done nothing to directly harm him? he was dumbfounded and walked away. That's some scary thought people have, you trust this entity with no accountability more than an individual? yikes, what is this world coming to?

 

[airdata]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fZFX9pNYX4&feature=player_embedded#!

So, apparently they also gave them $30 BILLION dollars in order to try to track the money. They recovered 11B, and the cartels made off w\ the other $19BILLION.

Drug war fail for the win.