Documentary on Koch brothers being made

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I've commented on how the Koch brothers are one of the largest forces in American politics for the Libertarian/corporate far right.

They own the second largest private corporation in the US, which has shot up in the last several years from about $7 billion to over $50 billion, much of that during Obama.

They've long been active in the politics of transferring wealth to the most wealthy and their rights to pollute more. They were co-creators of the pro-corporate Libertarian advocacy organazation the Cato Institute and funded countless other right-wing gorups, gaining that movement huge influence.

Two filmmakers wanted to make a documentary about their activities. They approached PBS, who agreed to fund the film for $150,000 and air it.

Now, there's a funny thing about PBS. I often see shows list at the beginning with all those funding foundations, Koch money as one of the major funders. It didn't terribly surprise me - you often see people who might do some terrible things to make their money be philanthropists with some of it as well. In a plutocracy, with hugely concentrated wealth, that can be one of the situations, where the same citizens kept poor for the wealthy's interest also become dependant on the gifts of the wealth, making it harder to complain.

So at the same time the Kochs might be among American's gtreatest villains fighting against thepublic interest, there they are being thanked constantly for funding one of the more public-interest organizations, created to provide an alternative to the televison dependant on advertising interests. Many on the right will oppose PBS saying 'let the market decide' if a show is made, but a show like Frontline doesn't fit well with a lot f advertisers' interests to avoid controversy. That's how it's supposed to work, independent.

But a funny thing happened with this documentary and PBS. The Kochs sit on two PBS boards, given their donations, and used their influence from their money to get PBS to reverse its decision, and the filmmakers had the funding and agreement to air the film cancelled.

I've seen a report of an article in The New Yorker reporting how that was done.

So, PBS's role as independent and public role was corrupted and compromised by this Koch money - pretty much illustrating the sort of problem that 'corruption causes.

The filmmakers went to Kickstarter for funding, and the film is funded and will be made.

It's not cheap - the lowest donation that gets the full film is $75.

But if you would like to support it, would like to see a film like this made - I'm not sure what the extra funds go to, it looks like increased distribution - here's the link:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1308051297/citizen-koch

It looks like it's scheduled for release by the end of next year.

As bad as PBS was corrupted under Bush by the leadership being far-right wing, this shows it's still marginalized by the Koch brothers' contributions.

The Koch money usually does good for PBS, sponsoring shows like Nova. But having PBS be overly dependent on big donors can cripple its role for a film like this.

People don't want to pay for PBS with taxes making it actually independent; we can see the good that can do with the excellent BBC, with the viewer-funded HBO network.

So this is a price that's paid - censorship of exposing one of the largest corrupt, government-buying forces in the country. I'm sure a commercial network will do the story...

This is an example of the problem of the unprecedented media conglomorates instead of the traditional diversely-owned news media in the US that's supposed to serve the people as a watchdog against powerful interests whether they be in government or the private sector.

We can say as much as we like that it's up to the American people to decide to read the better media that covers those things, but apparently under 2% of people do. Change the rules to make a few corporations own nearly all news media and run it for a profit advertiser-driven agenda and it breaks the system. Blaming citizens doesn't solve much.
 
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boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
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I don't see the Koch brothers as a large force for the right at all. They ranked 62nd in donations from 1989 to 2012.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2013/07/but-but-but-citizens-united.html

Of the 63 listed in the table in the link I provided, the overwhelming majority contributed left. In fact, the scales look to be tipped far in favor of the left.

I think these two filmmakers are borderline subversives and should probably be turned into the DHS. Attacking people who create jobs in this country just can't be in our best interests.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
71,821
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I don't see the Koch brothers as a large force for the right at all. They ranked 62nd in donations from 1989 to 2012.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2013/07/but-but-but-citizens-united.html

Of the 63 listed in the table in the link I provided, the overwhelming majority contributed left. In fact, the scales look to be tipped far in favor of the left.

I think these two filmmakers are borderline subversives and should probably be turned into the DHS. Attacking people who create jobs in this country just can't be in our best interests.

Just the damage alone from all the category 5 hurricanes create countless new jobs.
 

Anarchist420

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Feb 13, 2010
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I've commented on how the Koch brothers are one of the largest forces in American politics for the Libertarian/corporate far right.
They are not libertarians if they advocate public-private partnerships. Libertarians advocate for abolition of the State.
They were co-creators of the pro-corporate Libertarian advocacy organazation the Cato Institute and funded countless other right-wing gorups, gaining that movement huge influence.
Again, the CATO institute is not libertarian.

If you knew anything about libertarianism, then you'd know that Rothbard is the founder of modern libertarianism, that he had an ugly split with the CATO institution, and that he was critical of businesses that got in bed with govt.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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They are not libertarians if they advocate public-private partnerships. Libertarians advocate for abolition of the State.Again, the CATO institute is not libertarian.

If you knew anything about libertarianism, then you'd know that Rothbard is the founder of modern libertarianism, that he had an ugly split with the CATO institution, and that he was critical of businesses that got in bed with govt.

Internal battles, like Stalin and Trotsky. Different factions may hate each other, but for my purposes they're all Libertarians.
 

EagleKeeper

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So you would be OK if the Kochs pulled all of the funding so as to remove conflict of interest.

Interesting that the left rails against business, yet had no issues when business donates to causes more extensively than the left.
 
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sixone

Lifer
May 3, 2004
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So you would be OK if the Kochs pulled all of the funding so as to remove conflict of interest.

Interesting that the left rails against business, yet had no issues when business donates to causes more extensively than the left.

Exactly. I don't hear many complaining about what Soros is buying.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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So you would be OK if the Kochs pulled all of the funding so as to remove conflict of interest.

Interesting that the left rails against business, yet had no issues when business donates to causes more extensively than the left.

As I said, that's a problem with excessive concentration of wealth.

Imagine you lived in a South American city where the only school and hospital available to you were paid for by the ocal drug lord. Do you not use them?

As wealth concentrates, some of it tends to go to 'good causes', making people 'grateful' for the 'generosity' of the billionares spending a bit here and there for philanthropy.

But that's not how the country should be. The people should have wealth and the people should choose to spend that wealth on things they care about.

The left doesn't 'rail against business'. That is a dishonest straw man.

That's like saying someone who wants to tighten up the doctors who prescribe pills for drug dealers in mass quanties are 'against medicine'.

The left is against *bad* business and for *good* business. It's too bad you don't know the difference so it all just sounds anti-business to you.

I don't criticize the Kochs for donating to a good cause like PBS. I do criticize them for using those donations as pressure to censor the network (and I criticize PBS for allowing it).

Yes, I would like to give up the Kochs' donations to avoid those problems - but more importantly I'd like to shift their wealth back to the American people who pay for things.

Then people can pay for PBS and their activities can be freedom from corruption.

The right seems paranoid about the idea of 'dependency' when it comes to the government helping people, but to act like peasants and slaves to bow down to wealth.

However bad for the people, however corrupt, however harmful anything a billionare does, many of the right seem to race to defend it while screaming about better light bulbs.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Exactly. I don't hear many complaining about what Soros is buying.

The right-wing obsession with George Soros, who pales in comparison in influence and whose agenda is primarily pro-democracy, is sad.

But if Soros donated to PBS and used that many to pressure them against a documentary being made critical of him, I'd oppose that equally.

Legitimate grounds for opposing support for a film are if it's low quality, if it's unfair, but that's a different issue than buying censorship.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
19,881
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I would refuse to pay for the making of a movie that was critical of me as well.

How much would you pay for your own hatchet piece craig?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I would refuse to pay for the making of a movie that was critical of me as well.

How much would you pay for your own hatchet piece craig?

You're misreperesnting what happened. This was not asking the Kochs to pay for this film. Rather it was using their donations for other shows to blackmail PBS to censor.

Imagine a gift to a hospital on the condition the hospital won't treat a person the donor doesn't like - or that they won't treat a race of people they don't like. That's inappropriate.

You also show a lack of honesty in equating any critical documentary to 'hatchet job'. Hatchet job is a term for lying, misleading attacks, not fair and accurate attacks.

Some people like to use the term for fair and honest attacks because they don't have any legitimate arguments to attack the film/book with. It's a poor man's argument.

It's at the bottom of the argument list, next to attacking a fair and honest book critical of something by saying 'the author just wants to sell books'.

Given the film hasn't been made, it's a bit early for you to claim how it's a 'hatchet job' instead of legitimate criticism and documentary.

If you can cite something from the early publicitity, from the authors' backgrounds, fine. If you'd like to state you think anything negative about the Kochs is false, say that.

That's in effect what you are saying - all that's known is that this is a documentary about the Kochs, is critical of them, and is good enough to have won PBS' initial backing. You object just to that - so you object to any information critical of the Kochs. Which is actually a good argument in favor of the need for this documentary, to counter that sort of bias and to inform people. The fact the Kochs use their money to censor PBS from supporting the truth about them reinforces the problem about them and the need for the film.
 

EagleKeeper

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Fair and honest is subjective.

Even though the Kochs funds nay not directly support the documentary, their donation allows other funds to then become available.

One level removed (indirection) but the end result is the same.
 

Charles Kozierok

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May 14, 2012
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You're misreperesnting what happened. This was not asking the Kochs to pay for this film. Rather it was using their donations for other shows to blackmail PBS to censor.

That's the risk you take when you allow yourself to be supported by donations/advertisers, especially when you allow much of the support to come from a single source.

Organizations that want to remain objective and independent find other ways to fund themselves: cf., Consumer Reports and Wikipedia. If you want to bite the hand that feeds you, the first step is to stop eating out of it. So, good for them for going to Kickstarter. But the Koch brothers aren't villians in this as far as I can see.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Fair and honest is subjective.

Even though the Kochs funds nay not directly support the documentary, their donation allows other funds to then become available.

One level removed (indirection) but the end result is the same.

No, it's not 'the same'..

What you're describing is like war, when if you give $100 million in non-military aid, if that allows the recipient to shift $100 to military spending, there is an indirect effect.

In the case of PBS, it simply means they fund a different movie - it's censorship pure and simple. Any 'other' place money is shifted too is like Nova, not military spending.

They're not at war with PBS - they're at war with the truth. And you are their ally on it.

Fair and honest is subjective - but it's good enough to have been approved by those subjective standards by PBS prior to the Koch's getting the decision reversed.

Making that a non-issue, other than, as I said, you opposing ANYTHING telling the truth about the Kochs, by simply calling it names with no-fact attacks.

If it's critical of the Kochs, then it must not be honest or fair, no matter what, right?
 

EagleKeeper

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No, it's not 'the same'..

What you're describing is like war, when if you give $100 million in non-military aid, if that allows the recipient to shift $100 to military spending, there is an indirect effect.

In the case of PBS, it simply means they fund a different movie - it's censorship pure and simple. Any 'other' place money is shifted too is like Nova, not military spending.

They're not at war with PBS - they're at war with the truth. And you are their ally on it.

Fair and honest is subjective - but it's good enough to have been approved by those subjective standards by PBS prior to the Koch's getting the decision reversed.

Making that a non-issue, other than, as I said, you opposing ANYTHING telling the truth about the Kochs, by simply calling it names with no-fact attacks.

If it's critical of the Kochs, then it must not be honest or fair, no matter what, right?

My POV is that what some call fair & honest is subjective to their view point.

Then w/ respect to funding; he who controls the gold sets the rules.
They have realized that they need to go outside the normal channels because there is suspicion of the documentary.

Truth is very subjective - same goes with documentaries. To many producers of documentaries have an axe to grind; calling something a documentaries can be very generous - like a thin sheet of plastic over the picture - yes the picture is covered but the intent of seeing it is still there.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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In the case of PBS, it simply means they fund a different movie - it's censorship pure and simple.

How is this censorship? They are not blocking the movie from being made as far as I can tell. They are simply not funding it. Is every project that doesn't get funding being censored now?
 

EagleKeeper

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How is this censorship? They are not blocking the movie from being made as far as I can tell. They are simply not funding it. Is every project that doesn't get funding being censored now?

Craig feels that if funding is pulled after approved; it becomes censorship.

Allocation of limited resources will always pinch someone.
 

Charles Kozierok

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May 14, 2012
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Allocation of limited resources will always pinch someone.

Please. This was not just a matter of allocating limited resources. They killed the project because it cast them in a bad light, and I think everyone here knows that, whether we agree with their right to do so or not.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
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Please. This was not just a matter of allocating limited resources. They killed the project because it cast them in a bad light, and I think everyone here knows that, whether we agree with their right to do so or not.

But that is not censorship. By not allowing something to run on a station they control, they simply control content on that station. If ABC, NBC, CBS, or whoever refuses to fund and broadcast a documentary I make, they are not censoring me in any way.
 

Charles Kozierok

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May 14, 2012
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It may not be constitutionally objectionable, but it's a definitional example of censorship. The term means to suppress or make something unavailable because you don't want people to see it.

I have every right to decide that my son isn't allowed to watch "Game of Thrones", but that is most certainly censorship. So is this.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
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It may not be constitutionally objectionable, but it's a definitional example of censorship. The term means to suppress or make something unavailable because you don't want people to see it.

I have every right to decide that my son isn't allowed to watch "Game of Thrones", but that is most certainly censorship. So is this.

That is not censorship in the way it is commonly used (and how I took Craig to mean it). If the controlling party of HBO had decided "Game of Thrones" was not something they want representing their network, it is not censorship for them to decide not to fun the show and broadcast it. And just as the Koch brothers have decided a network they have some control over should not fund something they deem inappropriate for that network. The only reason this is even being talked about is because the content was about the Koch brothers themselves. You don't see an article for every show that is turned down from PBS, because they are not censoring information. They are just choosing not to distribute it, and that is their choice.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,018
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But that is not censorship. By not allowing something to run on a station they control, they simply control content on that station. If ABC, NBC, CBS, or whoever refuses to fund and broadcast a documentary I make, they are not censoring me in any way.

They weren't refusing to specifically fund a particular project. That's not how donations to PBS work. The Kochs bought their way onto the board with large donations. Now they want to control the content based on the power won by buying their way in. But this isn't a private, for profit company. It's a non-profit whose purpose is to benefit the public. If you donate to such a company, the purpose should therefore be to benefit the public. Clearly that was not the Koch's purpose here. They weren't really being philanthropic. They're just protecting their interests by manipulating a non-profit media outlet.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,018
13,759
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I don't see the Koch brothers as a large force for the right at all. They ranked 62nd in donations from 1989 to 2012.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2013/07/but-but-but-citizens-united.html

Of the 63 listed in the table in the link I provided, the overwhelming majority contributed left. In fact, the scales look to be tipped far in favor of the left.

I think these two filmmakers are borderline subversives and should probably be turned into the DHS. Attacking people who create jobs in this country just can't be in our best interests.

That statistic is for Koch Industries. The Kochs give money individually and they also operate 3 family foundations.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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That is not censorship in the way it is commonly used (and how I took Craig to mean it). If the controlling party of HBO had decided "Game of Thrones" was not something they want representing their network, it is not censorship for them to decide not to fun the show and broadcast it. And just as the Koch brothers have decided a network they have some control over should not fund something they deem inappropriate for that network. The only reason this is even being talked about is because the content was about the Koch brothers themselves. You don't see an article for every show that is turned down from PBS, because they are not censoring information. They are just choosing not to distribute it, and that is their choice.

It's funny how much of the time these discussions get into nit-picky definitions.

Without quoting the dictionary, here's my opinion on the word censorship: technically censorship means attempting to prevent someone from viewing something.

Now, there are tehnically broad meanings to that. You are censored from seeing the names of all of our CIA agents. You are censored from seeing the next episode of True Blood before it airs. You are censored from threatening the life of the President of the United States. We can find all kinds of examples that technically fall under the definition.

But the general use of the word and the one relevant here is when you try to suppress information to serve some selfish interest, typically avoiding embarrassment and criticism.

There is one other common use - national security type information - that's not relevant.

So what this means is, the Nixon lawyers fought to prevent the release of the tapes that put him in a bad light - they tried to censor them.

Anthony Wiener might like to use whatever tools he can to prevent more of his photos from coming out - he'd like to censor them.

There is censorship that's appropriate - and censorship that's not - and censorship that can be argued more either way.

The definition of the word, though it pretty clear, and using money as leverage to prevent a legitimate documentary from informing the public of embarrassing facts is a clear case of the bad kind of censorship. PBS has rules against allowing donors to corrupt their editorial decisions for just that reason, because it's tempting for donors to want that power, and bad for the integrity an dservice of the stations if they allowed it. They failed to follow those rules in this case - not for the first time.

Naturally, the PBS official who took the extraordinary steps in the article I listed says they were not because of the Kochs' money, though it's the only time he's taken those steps.

The article makes pretty clear what happened - this was a case of two of the most powerful and wealthiest men in the country using their money to silence PBS from funding and airing a story that would expose bad facts about them. It's scandalous for them to try to abuse their money to corrupt the mission of PBS that way, and it's scandaluos for PBS to allow them get away with it. It's unfortunate that the American people have chosen to let PBS funding get into this situation as well.

There is no analogy here between not airing this documentary and not airing Game of Thrones, depending on the reason.

If they don't air Game of Thrones because they don't like the quality, because it doesn't fit the programming they want, because it's too expensive - those are legitimate business decisions and not censorship. If PBS refused this documentary because it was something that didn't fit their programming, not of interest to viewers, wasn't good quality, those are legitimate reasons. They aren't the reasons - putting the Kochs' desire to suppress the information, to censor it, is, and that's wrong and helps show why the film is needed.