Dobbs: Populist tide has elitists running scared

[Ferocious]

Elitists like Kondracke dismiss calls for balanced and mutual international trade as protectionism and nationalism.

Yeah this is one of my biggest gripes about Bush and co. Free trade is fine...but it should be fair too. Why do we constantly let so many countries practice unfair trade with us? Dobbs


Also

We are a slave to theory in the face of reality," DiMicco said. ". . . In short, we have lost our minds."

Nucor CEO Dan DiMicco

 

[astrosfan90]

Yeah, let's enforce inefficiency by driving up the prices of imports so that we can continue paying our workers 50 times what people doing the same jobs elsewhere are paid, and call ourselves an efficient economy.

Wait, maybe that's not a good idea.

Dobbs would be better off spouting his rants in 1970s Latin America. They were into the sort of anti-external trade that Dobbs likes so much. It's done them all worlds of good, too, just look where they all are now.

Dobbs is a moron.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Clinton helped this along as well. Just as the "Iron Ricebowl" was on the brink of collapse and China may have ended up as a failed state, the US and other Western nations came to the rescue.

They sold it as opening up the largest market in the world, free trade, Democracy/Human Rights through trade etc. In reality the market, at the time, was made up of primarily poor people and the elite who skimmed so much off the top from government owned industry/business they were bankrupting the whole country (Watch PBS Frontline on this subject).

In essence we re-energized Communist China and are starting to turn it into Corporatism. What did we get for it? Well we lost a TON of jobs, lower standard of living (has other factors)... but hey we can buy a sh!tty screwdriver for $2.

The real winners are big business that make an absolute killing. Wal-Mart is also a factor on a national level since they dictate to companies at what price points they will sell products at. They make them bid on it. To be able to compete a company has to outsource production/labour to a nation like India or China.

It's a brilliant system designed to milk the US tax payer of every cent and drive you further into debt since the US is a debt nation.

This whole thing is essentially a racket and everyone involved at the highest levels should be charged under the RICO Act.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Aelius
Clinton helped this along as well. Just as the "Iron Ricebowl" was on the brink of collapse and China may have ended up as a failed state, the US and other Western nations came to the rescue.

They sold it as opening up the largest market in the world, free trade, Democracy/Human Rights through trade etc. In reality the market, at the time, was made up of primarily poor people and the elite who skimmed so much off the top from government owned industry/business they were bankrupting the whole country (Watch PBS Frontline on this subject).

In essence we re-energized Communist China and are starting to turn it into Corporatism. What did we get for it? Well we lost a TON of jobs, lower standard of living (has other factors)... but hey we can buy a sh!tty screwdriver for $2.

The real winners are big business that make an absolute killing. Wal-Mart is also a factor on a national level since they dictate to companies at what price points they will sell products at. They make them bid on it. To be able to compete a company has to outsource production/labour to a nation like India or China.

It's a brilliant system designed to milk the US tax payer of every cent and drive you further into debt since the US is a debt nation.

This whole thing is essentially a racket and everyone involved at the highest levels should be charged under the RICO Act.

On that note I propose we invade Canada to help even out the trade deficit.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Aelius
Clinton helped this along as well. Just as the "Iron Ricebowl" was on the brink of collapse and China may have ended up as a failed state, the US and other Western nations came to the rescue.

They sold it as opening up the largest market in the world, free trade, Democracy/Human Rights through trade etc. In reality the market, at the time, was made up of primarily poor people and the elite who skimmed so much off the top from government owned industry/business they were bankrupting the whole country (Watch PBS Frontline on this subject).

In essence we re-energized Communist China and are starting to turn it into Corporatism. What did we get for it? Well we lost a TON of jobs, lower standard of living (has other factors)... but hey we can buy a sh!tty screwdriver for $2.

The real winners are big business that make an absolute killing. Wal-Mart is also a factor on a national level since they dictate to companies at what price points they will sell products at. They make them bid on it. To be able to compete a company has to outsource production/labour to a nation like India or China.

It's a brilliant system designed to milk the US tax payer of every cent and drive you further into debt since the US is a debt nation.

This whole thing is essentially a racket and everyone involved at the highest levels should be charged under the RICO Act.

On that note I propose we invade Canada to help even out the trade deficit.

Sadly China, India and Mexico has beaten you to it. You are welcome to have the left overs.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: astrosfan90
Yeah, let's enforce inefficiency by driving up the prices of imports so that we can continue paying our workers 50 times what people doing the same jobs elsewhere are paid, and call ourselves an efficient economy.

Wait, maybe that's not a good idea.

Dobbs would be better off spouting his rants in 1970s Latin America. They were into the sort of anti-external trade that Dobbs likes so much. It's done them all worlds of good, too, just look where they all are now.

Dobbs is a moron.

Dobbs love America, why do you hate America???

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Aelius
Clinton helped this along as well. Just as the "Iron Ricebowl" was on the brink of collapse and China may have ended up as a failed state, the US and other Western nations came to the rescue.

They sold it as opening up the largest market in the world, free trade, Democracy/Human Rights through trade etc. In reality the market, at the time, was made up of primarily poor people and the elite who skimmed so much off the top from government owned industry/business they were bankrupting the whole country (Watch PBS Frontline on this subject).

In essence we re-energized Communist China and are starting to turn it into Corporatism. What did we get for it? Well we lost a TON of jobs, lower standard of living (has other factors)... but hey we can buy a sh!tty screwdriver for $2.

The real winners are big business that make an absolute killing. Wal-Mart is also a factor on a national level since they dictate to companies at what price points they will sell products at. They make them bid on it. To be able to compete a company has to outsource production/labour to a nation like India or China.

It's a brilliant system designed to milk the US tax payer of every cent and drive you further into debt since the US is a debt nation.

This whole thing is essentially a racket and everyone involved at the highest levels should be charged under the RICO Act.

On that note I propose we invade Canada to help even out the trade deficit.

Sadly China, India and Mexico has beaten you to it. You are welcome to have the left overs.

Oil? Check
Minerals? Check
English speaking population (mostly)? Check
Long undefended border? Check

Welcome to the war 2018, we're a couple hundred years late but we're finally back to finish the job.

 

[amish]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: astrosfan90
Yeah, let's enforce inefficiency by driving up the prices of imports so that we can continue paying our workers 50 times what people doing the same jobs elsewhere are paid, and call ourselves an efficient economy.

Wait, maybe that's not a good idea.

Dobbs would be better off spouting his rants in 1970s Latin America. They were into the sort of anti-external trade that Dobbs likes so much. It's done them all worlds of good, too, just look where they all are now.

Dobbs is a moron.

Dobbs love America, why do you hate America???

why do you hate america???

 

[trenchfoot]

yes yes yes. by all means, let's wipe out all jobs in the USA (except those that service the rich and famous) and offshore those jobs to any nation that wants to exploit our penchance for piling debt on ourselves through unfair trade practices, because its really good for business. :disgust:

or better yet, let's give every immigrant that wants to work in the US for slave wages free access across our borders any time, all the time. that way these immigrants can drive all remaining service sector job wages below the poverty level and then require them to send whatever meager disposable income they have left over to their home countries to create the same effect as off-shoring their jobs. another big plus from doing this is we get to reduce the size of gov't by making the dept. of immigration obsolete, unless of course, those jobs are needed to repay political favors or to empty the labor pool of applicants that can only get a job through nepotism.

and while we're at it, to reduce thesize of gov't even more let's get rid of that pesky dept. of labor that's stifling good business practices. oh, and by all means let's outlaw those business-killing labor unions.

after all that we can finally rename our country the united states of international conglomerates.

because, its realllly good for business. :disgust:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: tweaker2
yes yes yes. by all means, let's wipe out all jobs in the USA (except those that service the rich and famous) and offshore those jobs to any nation that wants to exploit our penchance for piling debt on ourselves through unfair trade practices, because its really good for business. :disgust:

or better yet, let's give every immigrant that wants to work in the US for slave wages free access across our borders any time, all the time. that way these immigrants can drive all remaining service sector job wages below the poverty level and then require them to send whatever meager disposable income they have left over to their home countries to create the same effect as off-shoring their jobs. another big plus from doing this is we get to reduce the size of gov't by making the dept. of immigration obsolete, unless of course, those jobs are needed to repay political favors or to empty the labor pool of applicants that can only get a job through nepotism.

and while we're at it, to reduce thesize of gov't even more let's get rid of that pesky dept. of labor that's stifling good business practices. oh, and by all means let's outlaw those business-killing labor unions.

after all that we can finally rename our country the united states of international conglomerates.

because, its realllly good for business. :disgust:

:thumbsup:

 

[cwjerome]

I can't stand the kind of "economic nationalism" Dobbs spews. We'd be a backwater stuck in the past if we clinged to his feudal ideas.

Good Article

 

[fskimospy]

I'm really amazed by all the people who are so excited to slit their own economic throats. Why would you be so pro big business? Do you own a big business? If not, then if you really subscribe to the free market you should be realizing right about now that your labor is a commodity. It's simply smart business practice to protect the value of what you're trying to sell. Everyone should be looking out for their own best interests, and I sincerely doubt that these trade practices are helping you out.

The Ayn Rand style lovers of unrestrained capitalism seem to have forgotten how incredibly badly it has been abused in the past. When the robber barons had gotten things to the level where they weren't even paying their employees real money anymore, but company scrip... their labor costs were super low! I guess that is the model of business efficiency, but I somehow doubt that you want that to come back.

How quickly we forget why unions were made in this country in the first place, and how for trying to stand up for themselves they were clubbed, beaten, and shot by corportate employed strikebreakers and even our own government's police. People fought really hard for decent labor practices in our country, and it boggles my mind how now people just want to give them away.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
I'm really amazed by all the people who are so excited to slit their own economic throats. Why would you be so pro big business? Do you own a big business? If not, then if you really subscribe to the free market you should be realizing right about now that your labor is a commodity. It's simply smart business practice to protect the value of what you're trying to sell. Everyone should be looking out for their own best interests, and I sincerely doubt that these trade practices are helping you out.

The Ayn Rand style lovers of unrestrained capitalism seem to have forgotten how incredibly badly it has been abused in the past. When the robber barons had gotten things to the level where they weren't even paying their employees real money anymore, but company scrip... their labor costs were super low! I guess that is the model of business efficiency, but I somehow doubt that you want that to come back.

How quickly we forget why unions were made in this country in the first place, and how for trying to stand up for themselves they were clubbed, beaten, and shot by corportate employed strikebreakers and even our own government's police. People fought really hard for decent labor practices in our country, and it boggles my mind how now people just want to give them away.

The only thing I want to add is that technically the US paper currency has no hard value since it's not backed up by gold. It's backed up by debt. oO $00.00

So technically everyone is getting paid the company scrip.

 

[fitzov]

There's no such thing as "fair" trade. There are only two ways we could compete with the Chinese (or any other country like them): stop buying their stuff, or start outproducing them. The former only a small percentage of people even consider, the latter was forgotten when our companies moved their labor force there.

 

[sandorski]

"Fair Trade" certainly seems reasonable and I'd say a laudable goal, but the question is: Who defines what "Fair" is?

All too often "Fair Trade" have merely been buzzwords used to hide Protectionism. Whether it's Automobiles, Softwood Lumber, or Steel, it has always been easy for the US Congress to simply claim "Dumping"(often without justification that doesn't hold up to scrutiny) or other such thing, pass Trade Restrictions and protect whole Industries from Foreign Competition. These kinds of measures usually backfire though, causing the Foreign producers to become even more Efficient, while their US counterparts hide behind their Protectionist walls doing little to nothing to make themselves Competitive.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: astrosfan90
Yeah, let's enforce inefficiency by driving up the prices of imports so that we can continue paying our workers 50 times what people doing the same jobs elsewhere are paid, and call ourselves an efficient economy.

Wait, maybe that's not a good idea.

Dobbs would be better off spouting his rants in 1970s Latin America. They were into the sort of anti-external trade that Dobbs likes so much. It's done them all worlds of good, too, just look where they all are now.

Dobbs is a moron.

Dobbs at least understands simple economic concepts, such as the relationship between the supply of labor, the supply of capital (and its demand for labor), the price point (wages) on the supply and demand curve, and the standard of living and quality of life that a certain price point would afford to people.

In contrast, you probably mouth free trade dogma like a moron.

Just what do you think would happen if you suddenly added 3 billion people to a labor pool of 300 million people without a corresponding increase in the amount of capital? Do you think that the dramatically increased supply of labor relative to the supply of capital and its demand for labor might dramatically decrease the price point? Might it dramatically decrease the amount of wealth that a laborer receives for his contribution to wealth production? Might the end result be an averaging out of the standard of living amongst the working class, transforming the United States into an impoverished third world country?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

I can't stand the kind of "economic nationalism" Dobbs spews. We'd be a backwater stuck in the past if we clinged to his feudal ideas.

No worries. The economic force of global labor arbitrage along with mass immigration and population explosion will transform the U.S. into a third world backwater.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

I can't stand the kind of "economic nationalism" Dobbs spews. We'd be a backwater stuck in the past if we clinged to his feudal ideas.

Good Article

Interestingly enough, a lot of Chinese companies are starting to espouse this same mindset of "economic nationalism" in that they don't want to relinquish too much control to American buyers (no link, read this in a recent FT though).

I'm really surprised to see an article like that on a website called Capitalist Magazine...

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: Ferocious

Elitists like Kondracke dismiss calls for balanced and mutual international trade as protectionism and nationalism.

Yeah this is one of my biggest gripes about Bush and co. Free trade is fine...but it should be fair too. Why do we constantly let so many countries practice unfair trade with us?

I think a better question is why do we practice unfair trade with so many other countries? You may complain that we aren't bitching at China enough to appreciate their currency but why the hell would they do that when we trade just as unfairly?

All you're going to get is a pot calling the kettle black type scenario. The only way to get them to trade more fairly is if we also agree to trade more fairly.

As for the article, I stopped reading after it claimed the Republicans are for "free-trade-at-all-cost." That's the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. The Republicans are no where near pro-free trade.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: Ferocious

Elitists like Kondracke dismiss calls for balanced and mutual international trade as protectionism and nationalism.

Yeah this is one of my biggest gripes about Bush and co. Free trade is fine...but it should be fair too. Why do we constantly let so many countries practice unfair trade with us?

I think a better question is why do we practice unfair trade with so many other countries? You may complain that we aren't bitching at China enough to appreciate their currency but why the hell would they do that when we trade just as unfairly?

All you're going to get is a pot calling the kettle black type scenario. The only way to get them to trade more fairly is if we also agree to trade more fairly.

As for the article, I stopped reading after it claimed the Republicans are for "free-trade-at-all-cost." That's the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. The Republicans are no where near pro-free trade.

Yet Republicans are the closet we have to free trade. The Dems are about to let the latest free trade deals with Colombia and Peru die. That's going to be very bad news.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: astrosfan90
Yeah, let's enforce inefficiency by driving up the prices of imports so that we can continue paying our workers 50 times what people doing the same jobs elsewhere are paid, and call ourselves an efficient economy.

Wait, maybe that's not a good idea.

Dobbs would be better off spouting his rants in 1970s Latin America. They were into the sort of anti-external trade that Dobbs likes so much. It's done them all worlds of good, too, just look where they all are now.

Dobbs is a moron.

So lets just devalue the dollar by 50 times and make the American worker competitive again. Of course the young people of today would have a hard time buying a house, car, etc., but we would stop the loss of american jobs to cheap labor.

 

[mfs378]

Originally posted by: astrosfan90
Yeah, let's enforce inefficiency by driving up the prices of imports so that we can continue paying our workers 50 times what people doing the same jobs elsewhere are paid, and call ourselves an efficient economy.

Wait, maybe that's not a good idea.

Dobbs would be better off spouting his rants in 1970s Latin America. They were into the sort of anti-external trade that Dobbs likes so much. It's done them all worlds of good, too, just look where they all are now.

Dobbs is a moron.

You are the moron. We are really overpaying our workers aren't we. At least for the poor quality inefficient work that they can manage. That family earning $50k? They should be happy to get $1k per year. That would set them straight.

Do you even have the capacity to think? LOL

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: mfs378

Originally posted by: astrosfan90
Yeah, let's enforce inefficiency by driving up the prices of imports so that we can continue paying our workers 50 times what people doing the same jobs elsewhere are paid, and call ourselves an efficient economy.

Wait, maybe that's not a good idea.

Dobbs would be better off spouting his rants in 1970s Latin America. They were into the sort of anti-external trade that Dobbs likes so much. It's done them all worlds of good, too, just look where they all are now.

Dobbs is a moron.

You are the moron. We are really overpaying our workers aren't we. At least for the poor quality inefficient work that they can manage. That family earning $50k? They should be happy to get $1k per year. That would set them straight.

Do you even have the capacity to think? LOL

I don't think you understood his argument at all.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: mfs378

Originally posted by: astrosfan90
Yeah, let's enforce inefficiency by driving up the prices of imports so that we can continue paying our workers 50 times what people doing the same jobs elsewhere are paid, and call ourselves an efficient economy.

Wait, maybe that's not a good idea.

Dobbs would be better off spouting his rants in 1970s Latin America. They were into the sort of anti-external trade that Dobbs likes so much. It's done them all worlds of good, too, just look where they all are now.

Dobbs is a moron.

You are the moron. We are really overpaying our workers aren't we. At least for the poor quality inefficient work that they can manage. That family earning $50k? They should be happy to get $1k per year. That would set them straight.

Do you even have the capacity to think? LOL

I don't think you understood his argument at all.

Because he has no argument, just preconcieved notions planted into his head by the "liberal" media. Did anyone stop to consider the possibility that "poor quality innefficient work" might be management's fault? No, they just piss and moan about the american worker being overpaid. Well, we've listened to that cock and bull story for 25 years and the only solution management can come up with is lower pay and outsorcing jobs. Sorry, but that's not good enough and the people are sick and tired of listening to that crap (notice the ass kicking the GOP got this election). Lou Dobbs is right on.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: mfs378

Originally posted by: astrosfan90
Yeah, let's enforce inefficiency by driving up the prices of imports so that we can continue paying our workers 50 times what people doing the same jobs elsewhere are paid, and call ourselves an efficient economy.

Wait, maybe that's not a good idea.

Dobbs would be better off spouting his rants in 1970s Latin America. They were into the sort of anti-external trade that Dobbs likes so much. It's done them all worlds of good, too, just look where they all are now.

Dobbs is a moron.

You are the moron. We are really overpaying our workers aren't we. At least for the poor quality inefficient work that they can manage. That family earning $50k? They should be happy to get $1k per year. That would set them straight.

Do you even have the capacity to think? LOL

Since you still don't understand...

It isn't efficient to pay workers here a prohibitively higher wage to do work that can be outsourced to another country for cheaper. I don't know where this idea of poor starving families came from. He's making a general (and extremely accurate) statement about the nature of our economy. Free trade is not beneficial to everyone, but more people benefit from it than are hurt. It is just that those that are helped are helped more than those who are hurt. He isn't talking about the totality of wages either. In a free market, wages will move toward an equilibrium. Interfering with that natural process is what tariffs, wage controls, and lack of free trade do. It upsets the applecart, and it makes the economy less efficient. Due to politics and reality, an economy is always going to have areas of inefficiency as we don't live in a bubble.

However, his point is very good. Americans should be focused more on capital related and skilled jobs, as we have a great post-secondary system, and better business sense than many countries. We should be re-training workers in areas that we aren't competitive when it comes to labor costs. Not all areas of course, because you still have to have a varied workforce in the interest of national security and to plan for worst case scenarios. We've lot a ton of manufacturing jobs, and it isn't because of profit taking. It is because we can't compete when it comes to wages (and in some cases the price of raw materials to make a good). Our economy would be more efficient and wages would be HIGHER if we had higher skilled workers, and quit pouring subsidies into aging non-competitive markets. Some areas like Steel production, agriculture, defense, etc are areas where we have to keep some subsidies and workers around, and for the aforementioned reasons that make them vital to our nation's health.

Basically, things like Telephone Tech Support are not vital to our security or health, and outsourcing them is a smart move. Businesses can then use their saved capital to expand, pay a higher reward to shareholders, or re-train their current workforce for more efficient and higher paying jobs.

Free trade and a free economy is the best economic system to help the most people. Not everyone, but again, this is not an ideal world. Dobb's calls for protectionism and a stop to outsourcing is the same populist rhetoric that has led America to lose a competitive edge in many industries, and has more than once led to a recession in certain areas -- if not the entire economy.

Economic liberalization is a great thing. Markets should be free and people should be free. Populism is just a bunch of feel good rhetoric that tries to appeal to emotion instead of logic. I hate for anyone to lose a job, but I hate even more for a LOT of people to lose jobs and our economy to contract which results in lower wages and less GDP.