This is about the situation with the United States and their possible campaign on Iraq. So if you dont wanna discuss this intelligently then just leave now. I dont want any of this, USA owns the world, or USA sucks crap. The situation is that the US claims that Sadam Hussein is obtaining weapons of mass destruction. The problem is that many of the countries around the world do not want to support the US in a campaign against Iraq. I'm assuming that one possible reason for their lack of support is that they just don't believe that Saddam has the capabilities to obtain these weapons. Or are they using that as an excuse? Basically what I'm getting at is that if the US could show to these other countries that Saddam already has weapons that are capable of killing millions, would they change their mind with supporting the US or not??
do you think??
- Thread starter cmdavid
- Start date
How about before showing other countries we see the evidence here ourselves. This is a complex question so I'm going to give a tiny piece of an answer. Saudi Arabia doesn't want a liberated and democratic Iraq especially a US oblicated or controlled one because their ability to control oil prices would be compromised. It wouldn't be long and Iraq could up its production 2 and a half times.
well i understand the general conflict with the countries in the middle east supporting a campaign against Iraq. But I'm talking about countries in Europe and Asia and so forth that won't support the US, and the UN.....
i can basically say that the US gov't knows that saddam has had weapons with the capability to kill millions.. i think they want to do this campaign now because they're getting more information and maybe hints at a possible attack from them.. the best way to keep them from attacking or any terrorist from attacking is to keep them on the defense.. to take the fighting over to them.. and thats why i think dubya is sorta anxious to get the ball rollin on iraq....
I think the main thing for me for sending in the troops is why won't Saddam just let the damn inspectors in. What's he hiding? Or not hiding....just let them in. If they don't have any WMDs, then the US has no leg to stand on. 
Bush uses whatever terms are convenient at the moment. We know Saddam had the technology for chemical and biological weapons. The world knows this and his restored capacity for producing these agents and delivery systems. He has demonstrated a will to use them against those who can't hit back very hard (Kurds, Iran) but not US troops. His neighbors apparently have little public trepidation that he might use them. Israel is prepared for the worst but EVERYBODY knows Israel will put a mad hurt on Saddam if he attacks Israel. Most countries in the region have some capacity for chemical/biological warfare including the most recent transgressor, Turkey. If you listen to Bush we don't care about ANYBODY but Saddam and HIS program.
Saddam likely spends more money on personal aggrandizement than weapon development. Saddam World
Bush Blair stupid, liars, or both
In his meeting with Blair, Bush cited a satellite photograph and a report by the U.N. atomic energy agency as evidence of Iraq?s impending rearmament. However, in response to a report by NBC News, a senior administration official acknowledged Saturday night that the U.N. report drew no such conclusion, and a spokesman for the U.N. agency said the photograph had been misinterpreted.
So if his neighbors ho hum (especially with Saddam's track record) why are we so bent out of shape?! I'm baffled. I think many others sense an ulterior motive. I don't want to speculate and I really don't care but Bush better come up with a much better excuse by Thursday. Calling Saddam POS despot who stymies democracy and neglects his people will not rally a region filled with POS despots . . . France, Russia, and China are busy trying to sell their wares to various POS despots in the region.
We don't have a 9/11 smoking gun. Bush's argument hinges on replacing a regime dangerous to the region . . . which is certainly true. But considering Saddam could only deliver a nuclear weapon (which he doesn't have and apparently can't make unless he imports the equipment and/or fissionable material) to a radius of 400 miles we can't hang our hat on protecting Americans. Now our ability to extract oil from the region . . . that's a different story.
Originally posted by: radiocore
I think the main thing for me for sending in the troops is why won't Saddam just let the damn inspectors in. What's he hiding? Or not hiding....just let them in. If they don't have any WMDs, then the US has no leg to stand on.
but he does... and thats what i dont get.. hes basically not denying he does... he wont let the inspectors in... and a lot of the other countries still won't support the US.... maybe im just looking at it to simply... i dunno...
wow... makes sense...
but the ulterior motive makes all the difference.. if the US senses one or has some intelligence that indicates so then they can't just come right out and say it... but thats what I'm thinking intelligence has come up with, plots or plans for ulterior motives.... they just need to convince the world without giving away too much information which i guess is where the trouble is...
Due to embargos or whatever, Iraq is loosing 120 BILLION dollars a year. Yes, that is a "B", not an "M". All he has to do is let Inspectors in, with freedom to do/go anywhere and he will up his nations income by 120 BILLION dollars. So, in essence, Saddam is hiding a 120 BILLION dollar secret.
Two reasons to force a regime(sp) change:
1) Saddam clearly wants to have the capability to kill alot of people. He must be planning something big to hide a 120 billion dollar secret. This is speculative though, but really. What is he hiding.
2) To loose 120 billion dollars a year, he is not doing what is in the best interest of his people. isn't that the job of a leader of a country? His decisions are not based on what to do to make his country a better place to live in. Further more, it appears that he doesn't care about his own people.
Two reasons to force a regime(sp) change:
1) Saddam clearly wants to have the capability to kill alot of people. He must be planning something big to hide a 120 billion dollar secret. This is speculative though, but really. What is he hiding.
2) To loose 120 billion dollars a year, he is not doing what is in the best interest of his people. isn't that the job of a leader of a country? His decisions are not based on what to do to make his country a better place to live in. Further more, it appears that he doesn't care about his own people.
OK, If something is not done to force a regime change (or we don't take appropriate actions). Here's my prediciton:
Saddam will eventually be capable of making a suitcase sized nuke. it's not if, it's when! That nuke WILL land in the hands of terrorist. That nuke WILL go off in the US!
Think about it. Saddam clearly wants to make a nuke and has ties to Al Queada. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if the UN approves our actions. Turn Iraq into a sheet of glass for all I care.
Saddam will eventually be capable of making a suitcase sized nuke. it's not if, it's when! That nuke WILL land in the hands of terrorist. That nuke WILL go off in the US!
Think about it. Saddam clearly wants to make a nuke and has ties to Al Queada. As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if the UN approves our actions. Turn Iraq into a sheet of glass for all I care.
MichaelD
Lifer
- Jan 16, 2001
- 31,528
- 3
- 76
We are talking about a man that GASSED his own people. Mustard gas is a slow, horrible death.
He offs his own people; what makes anyone think he gives a hoot about anyone, anywhere else? IMO, Saddam wants to be sovereign ruler of all the Arabic countries and eventually the world. He is a bad case of megalomania gone horribly wrong.The Saudis dont' like him anymore than we do, but remember; he is ARABIC. That makes him a brother and they'd defend him before they'd help America, even though he attacked them years ago. The Old World doesn't think like we do. They aren't rational in any sense of the word.
I would agree with you, but that removes the element of surprise. Once the evidence is displayed, we must move quickly, or Iraq will take actions to hide, destroy or move the physical evidence which we present.
MichaelD
Lifer
- Jan 16, 2001
- 31,528
- 3
- 76
Exactly what they did last time the UN Inspectors where there.
Inspection Team: Hi, we're from the UN, and we are here to inspect these buildings
Iraqis: OK, you can go anywhere you like
Inspection Team: OK, how about that building there, in the corner?
Iraqis: Uh, any building except that one....it's a um...HOLY PLACE, yes, that is it...a HOLY PLACE
Inspection Team: You suck
People tend to view the gassing of his own people as a mute point because in Iraq's view, those people are all terrorists (threats) to his country. This does prove that Saddam doesn't care about his own people though.
We have the KKK and groups that want to overthrow the gov't and other pathetic groups in our own country. We don't off them in mass though?
Hey, if he doesn't go by diplomatic means to resolve issues with his own counrty men, why do we have to go through the UN? Oh wait, we're rational thinkers here. my bad.
Until all governements in this world offer freedom to their people and religion is not tied to govenment, there will NEVER be world peace.
We have the KKK and groups that want to overthrow the gov't and other pathetic groups in our own country. We don't off them in mass though?
Hey, if he doesn't go by diplomatic means to resolve issues with his own counrty men, why do we have to go through the UN? Oh wait, we're rational thinkers here. my bad.
Until all governements in this world offer freedom to their people and religion is not tied to govenment, there will NEVER be world peace.
HAHAHHA, it's funny cause it's true. Well, no. it's not funny, but it is true.
Anyone watch the testifying of the two UN inspectors before congress? It was a couple of days ago. They told the truth and basically stated the scenerio you mention. They are all the evidence I need. And oh ya, Scott Ridder is a Liar!
kherman Quote: We have the KKK and groups that want to overthrow the gov't and other pathetic groups in our own country. We don't off them in mass though
-----------------------------
BooneRebel Quote: ................but what about David Koresh?
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He meant in the US. That happened in Texas.
This post reminds me of the time Mulla Nasrudin was given a parrot. As a man of the desert, he was used to hawks and falcons, so he got out his scissors and began to sculpt. Now, he said at last, you look like a bird.
The human brain has this unique capacity to see patterns. It's what the brain does. But where there is no pattern or where one is not immediately discernable, there is a powerful temptation, perhaps an unavoidable temptation to impose one. Thus our greatest gift is our most deadly curse.
My own opinion on what Bush is up to with the Iraqi thing has ranged the gamut. It's oil, it's revenge for his Dad who got called a wimp, it's protect Israel, it's wacko-religious end-times bring-it-on, it's divert attention from the economy, it's jack up the people with fear and yank their freedoms, it's macho insanity, arrogance, it's low IQ, it's wag-the-dog, and so on. Fact is I don't really know. What I do think I know is that something is very peculiar and I smell a rat.
What I have said is that I think Bush is going to take us in to war regardless of what anybody says or does, regardless of cost in American lives, regardless of consequence, regardless of congress, regardless of the UN, regardless of any intelligent force on earth. I think he is a complete and total fool and what he is doing is an outrage. He was not elected, he did not get a majority of the vote. One fool swing vote on the Supreme Coup kicked this country in the ass in a way that can never be repaired. Bush is going to attack another nation unlawfully and unjustly. He is going to make revenge on the United States justifiable and defensible. He is going to make us evil.
He is going to turn an eagle into a vulture.
Mr. Bush, please prove me wrong.
-----------------------------
BooneRebel Quote: ................but what about David Koresh?
------------------------------------
He meant in the US. That happened in Texas.
This post reminds me of the time Mulla Nasrudin was given a parrot. As a man of the desert, he was used to hawks and falcons, so he got out his scissors and began to sculpt. Now, he said at last, you look like a bird.
The human brain has this unique capacity to see patterns. It's what the brain does. But where there is no pattern or where one is not immediately discernable, there is a powerful temptation, perhaps an unavoidable temptation to impose one. Thus our greatest gift is our most deadly curse.
My own opinion on what Bush is up to with the Iraqi thing has ranged the gamut. It's oil, it's revenge for his Dad who got called a wimp, it's protect Israel, it's wacko-religious end-times bring-it-on, it's divert attention from the economy, it's jack up the people with fear and yank their freedoms, it's macho insanity, arrogance, it's low IQ, it's wag-the-dog, and so on. Fact is I don't really know. What I do think I know is that something is very peculiar and I smell a rat.
What I have said is that I think Bush is going to take us in to war regardless of what anybody says or does, regardless of cost in American lives, regardless of consequence, regardless of congress, regardless of the UN, regardless of any intelligent force on earth. I think he is a complete and total fool and what he is doing is an outrage. He was not elected, he did not get a majority of the vote. One fool swing vote on the Supreme Coup kicked this country in the ass in a way that can never be repaired. Bush is going to attack another nation unlawfully and unjustly. He is going to make revenge on the United States justifiable and defensible. He is going to make us evil.
He is going to turn an eagle into a vulture.
Mr. Bush, please prove me wrong.
CPA
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 30,322
- 4
- 0
And Moonbeam you were doing so well until that last paragraph. Don't you know we are already considered evil. this occured well before Bush's reign.
Look, every country has their own reasons for going in or not. Personally, I could care less what the UN, France or any other 3rd world country has to say about the issue. I am tired of being reactive, it is time to be proactive. I don't need to know every detail of Bush's reasoning, nor should I know. I put more trust in Bush's intentions than Saddam's or the UN's, for that matter.
I think it needs to be done...but I can see why the Arab world doesn't support us going in there. Our track record of successful regime changes is not that good. We still have yet to see exactly how things will turn out in Afghanistan. And we completely devastated Iraq in '91. Our bombs basically ripped that country apart to the point where it won't recover for a LONG time. Even without Saddam it will take at least 30-40 years to get back to the pre-Saddam era. The rest of the world doesn't want us to beat a dead horse.
What they don't understand is what Saddam is capable of. If he had been some small warlord in a small section of Iraq and was hiding and plotting things the way he is now, we would have the support we needed to go in there. Just as we did to go into Afghanistan. The fact that he's the official leader of the Iraqi nation makes things very different in this case.
The Arab world is similar to us in some ways...they turn the other cheek at some of the attrocities committed in their nations while speaking out against our attrocities. At this point they're just being stubborn and I think it will take a nuke from Saddam to convince them.
What they don't understand is what Saddam is capable of. If he had been some small warlord in a small section of Iraq and was hiding and plotting things the way he is now, we would have the support we needed to go in there. Just as we did to go into Afghanistan. The fact that he's the official leader of the Iraqi nation makes things very different in this case.
The Arab world is similar to us in some ways...they turn the other cheek at some of the attrocities committed in their nations while speaking out against our attrocities. At this point they're just being stubborn and I think it will take a nuke from Saddam to convince them.
thats how i feel... when we're reactive that means we're on the defense... that means we're protecting ourselves on our own land.. why not protect ourselves on their land? If we're not on offense we're on the defense? Why is that? because the only time where there is no offense and no defense, is during peace. And this sure is no time of peace. We've got the capabilities to protect ourselves by spoiling their efforts because of our intelligence and our SF.... why not use it?? why wait to see what they're going to do?? Sure the world might not appreciate it but our job is not to please the world. Our job is to protect ourselves and anybody else who can't protect themselves. Like other countries in the middle east even, who would not be able to protect themselves against any weapons from saddam. People might say, "America should mind her own business." But, once a nuke is dropped or any chemical weapons is utilized either in the middle east or here in America, it would be too late for those hundereds of thousands or even millions that have already been killed. Sure that may be justifaction for the world for us to attack, but for those people it came too late. What the US does may not be the most popular opinion, but with our intelligence and interest, its gotta be the best decision for the interest of the world, and not just the US. Thats the faith i have in the administration.
There is a huge monstrous gigantic titanic difference between having people think you're evil and actually being evil.
A lot of the pro-war replies rely on trusting the U.S intelligence and the U.S government.
I for one, don't (trust)
I'm with Moonbeam on this one.
I mean, there are a number of reasons (all of which moonbeam stated) that could be possible motives for Bush II
but it doesn't matter because it's all speculation.
It's all speculation that Iraq is plotting something against the states as well.
This is the dialogue;
- Let us search you.
- No!
- Why not? You must be hiding something.
This is not evidence folks.
The persian gulf war was based off of serious media manipulation of the American people. I'm talking, babies getting ripped out of incubators etc. A lot of this outright lying on the part of American PR firms has come to light since. So what I'm saying, is why the hell am I going to believe you a second time? And if Iraq lets them in, and there is nothing there, CNN will report that there was in EITHER CASE .. so Iraq has absolutely nothing to gain by letting them in, one way or the other. Bush II wants this war regardless.
Oh yeah .. and stuff is coming out about Kosovo as well. Turns out that the atrocities there were also severely overstated by western media. (I was at a seminar where a couple of U.N inspectors spoke about it all, CNN is full of sh!t)
They are obviously after something, whether oil, or a better foothold in the region or whatever .. lots of possibilities.
Lets not forget that there are other 'rogue' countries that are developing nuclear and chemical weapons.
Why the fvck don't we go after india and pakistan? Why don't we go after Sri Lanka .. that place is just littered with suicide bombers? I'm telling you, that the media story, and Bush II's story .. it just doesn't make and fvcking sense.
Anyone notice that before any attacks happen, there is crazy media attention on it. Almost as if nothing else exists in the world. We don't hear about the Turks and the Kurds, we don't hear much about India and Pakistan anymore .. we don't hear much about Sri Lanka .. and what the hell happened in Kosovo anyways? Is that place fixed or what? How about Somalia?
You get what I'm driving at? Why so much media concentration on this one thing? Because they will have their war one way or the other and they are just convincing the people (lying, coercing?) into supporting this war .. and rounding up the tropps as well.
Iraq .. attack the U.S. I don't buy it. How is Iraq buying weopons from France etc .. when they have an international embargo? Sanctions people!!! cRazy economic strife over there.
How do we know all this stuff about Saddam living in a castle and spending all of the countrie's wealth on chemical/biological/nuclear weopons? It all reads like a hollywood movie .. and real life isn't like that.
No doubl he's up to no good, he's a cheat and a theif I'm sure. I just think the same about Bush, Gore and any U.S president for the past 100 years.
I for one, don't (trust)
I'm with Moonbeam on this one.
I mean, there are a number of reasons (all of which moonbeam stated) that could be possible motives for Bush II
but it doesn't matter because it's all speculation.
It's all speculation that Iraq is plotting something against the states as well.
This is the dialogue;
- Let us search you.
- No!
- Why not? You must be hiding something.
This is not evidence folks.
The persian gulf war was based off of serious media manipulation of the American people. I'm talking, babies getting ripped out of incubators etc. A lot of this outright lying on the part of American PR firms has come to light since. So what I'm saying, is why the hell am I going to believe you a second time? And if Iraq lets them in, and there is nothing there, CNN will report that there was in EITHER CASE .. so Iraq has absolutely nothing to gain by letting them in, one way or the other. Bush II wants this war regardless.
Oh yeah .. and stuff is coming out about Kosovo as well. Turns out that the atrocities there were also severely overstated by western media. (I was at a seminar where a couple of U.N inspectors spoke about it all, CNN is full of sh!t)
They are obviously after something, whether oil, or a better foothold in the region or whatever .. lots of possibilities.
Lets not forget that there are other 'rogue' countries that are developing nuclear and chemical weapons.
Why the fvck don't we go after india and pakistan? Why don't we go after Sri Lanka .. that place is just littered with suicide bombers? I'm telling you, that the media story, and Bush II's story .. it just doesn't make and fvcking sense.
Anyone notice that before any attacks happen, there is crazy media attention on it. Almost as if nothing else exists in the world. We don't hear about the Turks and the Kurds, we don't hear much about India and Pakistan anymore .. we don't hear much about Sri Lanka .. and what the hell happened in Kosovo anyways? Is that place fixed or what? How about Somalia?
You get what I'm driving at? Why so much media concentration on this one thing? Because they will have their war one way or the other and they are just convincing the people (lying, coercing?) into supporting this war .. and rounding up the tropps as well.
Iraq .. attack the U.S. I don't buy it. How is Iraq buying weopons from France etc .. when they have an international embargo? Sanctions people!!! cRazy economic strife over there.
How do we know all this stuff about Saddam living in a castle and spending all of the countrie's wealth on chemical/biological/nuclear weopons? It all reads like a hollywood movie .. and real life isn't like that.
No doubl he's up to no good, he's a cheat and a theif I'm sure. I just think the same about Bush, Gore and any U.S president for the past 100 years.
the US knows that Saddam has weapons that can kill millions... The US may be speculating on a possible attack (although i belive they're just now receiving tons of intelligence and hints at an attack or plot) but why take the chance? They know hes dangerous (i dont think anybody can argue with that), and they know that hes got weapons of mass destruction.... do they need anymore justification for taking him out??
And with the U.S's track record, nobody wants to believe them.
I still don't understand why U.S citizens believe in this.
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