DesiPower
Lifer
- Nov 22, 2008
- 15,366
- 740
- 126
Demand and supply, Right now labor supply is abundant, union wants to control that. CEOs and upper management, EMBAs from Kellogg's are in short supply, meat packers and welders are not, you don't like the balance? you prefer income redistribution?
Sure they can. Don't take the union deal and your entire workforce walks off the job. Do you think a company can withstand a 6 month production stoppage while they restaff? It will take a year to get everyone up to speed and years to get efficiency back. That's forcing the company to take the deal or go out of business.
People need to look further into Hostess history.
Their 2004 bankruptcy lasted until 2009. At the time it was the longest bankruptcy in US history.
During the bankruptcy in 2007 they were offered a supposedly "low ball" $580million by Bimbo USA. Now instead they will be lucky to fetch $150million. Shareholders got hosed. Low level employees got hosed. Creditors got hosed. Executives, well they made out like bandits.
Even without the strike Hostess was looking at selling or winding down. Its why they sent out layoff notices to all employees in May 2012. The union strike hastened the demise but it didn't kill Hostess. Hostess probably would have had to been bought out or liquidated in either case.
And lets not forget Hostess raided the pension contributions plan to keep Hostess a float in 2011. Hostess problems were obviously more than just the unions. Im not to sure many on this board would be okay if their boss told them he was taking their personal contributions to their retirement accounts/pensions and cutting their pay by 27% over the next 5 years.
Its likely a lot of the people now out of jobs will be hired back when their plants are reopened by ConAgra or Bimbo. Some of the lesser brand will likely die off, and thus jobs relating to those will be forever gone. But the Hostess, Twinkie, and Wonder Bread brands and plants that produced theproducts will likely reopen with new owners.
Their 2004 bankruptcy lasted until 2009. At the time it was the longest bankruptcy in US history.
During the bankruptcy in 2007 they were offered a supposedly "low ball" $580million by Bimbo USA. Now instead they will be lucky to fetch $150million. Shareholders got hosed. Low level employees got hosed. Creditors got hosed. Executives, well they made out like bandits.
Even without the strike Hostess was looking at selling or winding down. Its why they sent out layoff notices to all employees in May 2012. The union strike hastened the demise but it didn't kill Hostess. Hostess probably would have had to been bought out or liquidated in either case.
And lets not forget Hostess raided the pension contributions plan to keep Hostess a float in 2011. Hostess problems were obviously more than just the unions. Im not to sure many on this board would be okay if their boss told them he was taking their personal contributions to their retirement accounts/pensions and cutting their pay by 27% over the next 5 years.
Its likely a lot of the people now out of jobs will be hired back when their plants are reopened by ConAgra or Bimbo. Some of the lesser brand will likely die off, and thus jobs relating to those will be forever gone. But the Hostess, Twinkie, and Wonder Bread brands and plants that produced theproducts will likely reopen with new owners.
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IronWing
No Lifer
- Jul 20, 2001
- 69,041
- 26,920
- 136
Again, the company agrees to a contract because it is in the best interests of the shareholders to do so. If the management signs a contract that will tank the company, as many here seem to think routine, then the management is not performing its duty to shareholders and is foolish.
More clueless ideology. 'The Market' is one force, not the only one, and it's most often used to excuse screwing one group while another avoids it.
Explain to me how the executives at this company trying to get large bonuses as the company is liquidated is market forces?
This isn't about 'the market'.
It's looking more like it's about the flaws in these private capital groups.
Northern Lawn
Platinum Member
- May 15, 2008
- 2,231
- 2
- 0
No you couldn't explain it, because you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are just spouting propaganda you have been brainwashed with.
That has nothing to do with your statement that a union can't force a company to accept a contract. Yes, they can. Especially an embedded union with the non-union work force is small or nonexistent.
The ideology is strong in your post. Some people think if they chant "supply and demand" they're Nobel Economists ready to explain how the labor issues work.
Your post is very simplistic, and wrong.
BTW, the market doesn't 'think' anything. It's not a person.
The problem with Hostess was they had been more or less bankrupt for almost a decade and the last seven different management teams that had come and gone(each making more than the last) apparently didn't have any clue on how to fix the company.
Poor management caused the problem. The union just finished it
Poor management caused the problem. The union just finished it
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yup, should replace those jobs with robots anyways, just like in China: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57...ortedly-installing-robots-to-replace-workers/
socialism should be a great wave of the future tho, with robots doing all the menial work, we can all live off of welfare!
rudeguy
Lifer
- Dec 27, 2001
- 47,371
- 14
- 61
Red Squirrel
No Lifer
I heard that Twinkies will still be available in Canada. Anyone know about this? Since you guys don't really need our oil anymore after that big discovery a few days ago, we can use the pipe line for twinkies. Even the natives will be ok with that.
Other companies owns the rights or have licenses to Hostess products in other parts of the world. They will continue operating even as Hostess folds and sells off its assets. Their licenses will still be valid even when the brands are sold off, at least until the licenses expires.
For example Bimbo already owns the rights to Wonder Bread in Mexico.
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rudeguy
Lifer
- Dec 27, 2001
- 47,371
- 14
- 61
I thought PBR was working on buying the rights to Hostess?
And there is a Hostess/Butternut factory in my city. Those people were not underpaid for the work they did. They could have taken a pay cut and still been ok. The union is greedy just like all unions and caused the company to fail.
How many more companies are unions going to have to bankrupt before people realize they are evil?
So you would be okay with taking a substantial pay cut 5 years ago. Then are asked to take an even bigger pay cut over the next 5 years? All while having your pension funds being used to help float the company and having to be okay with never getting any of the money you were promised OR paid in back? I mean going $18ish to $16ish to $11ish over the course of 10 years and having you pension wiped out? Yeah I am pretty sure no one on here would agree to that. Especially when you can go on unemployment and have a decent chance of Bimbo or ConAgra reopening your plant.
Mismanagement was what sent Hostess into bankrutpcy in 2004. Its what ultimately killed the company, the Union just hammered the final nail in the coffin. Both sides are to blame.
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TehMac
Diamond Member
- Aug 18, 2006
- 9,979
- 3
- 71
except for the part where I saw it first hand working in a union shop in the state of california.
About 100 dollars up front fee, and a mandatory, no questions asked forced-extraction of 33% from each paycheck (which was minimum wage and/or a 13 cent raise).
But yea, it's all that right-wing mythology maaaan, totally. Your hero Krugman btw got taken for a ride on his own column and then had to delete the comments to save face. Those precious Keynsian models and fancy charts don't mean shit in the real world where people operate as discriminating individuals and not mathematically charted robots.
... The moment my paycheck starts going down, is the moment I start applying for other jobs... I don't know about you guys...
In fact, you're a DUMBASS if you don't start applying after your pay goes down. I am currently on the POSSIBLE chopping block list for layoffs where I work.... Soooo the first thing I did was dust off the resume and start shelling it out. Already received 3 callbacks. I'm not boasting, but fuck if you just sit there and jack off hoping it gets better - than the corporations will looooove you.
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Are you guys really arguing fault here? Management ran the company into the ground and the union pushed them past the tipping point. How on earth can you actually slice this into something where one side is "more" at fault? It seems like both sides came together to fuck themselves pretty good.
Let's move on to more interesting things, like predictions for when the union gets sued by the former employees, and on what grounds.
Let's move on to more interesting things, like predictions for when the union gets sued by the former employees, and on what grounds.
I'm open to anecdotes of a bad union experience. But anecodtes don't change the fact unions are great for workers. What company? Links to info?
Again, link to Krugman 'having to delete his comments'?
No, it's the right-wing ideology that doesn't work in the real world, Keynes does.
Unions are everything wrong and bad. Kills relationships. No health improvement (which is what it was originally made for). It just creates more conflicts. More ways to sneak money. More ways to threaten. Yet as proof from this - more ways to mess everything up.
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