Do you think Bush will stand up to Sharon?

[Martin]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1052251602176

This article sums it up pretty nicely.

 

[Alistar7]

Of course the blame will go to the US, and of course it is our responsiblity in this matter to soley make Sharon concede. This is clearly what you have complained about Bush doing in the past, why not make the international community responsible for this?

While the rest of the world carries this burden as well, it will be the US who has to take the actions necessary to see it happen, and would have been blamed either way.
No better example than Kosovo.

The EU sat idly by doing little other than non UN sanctioned actions that did little or nothing to stop the violence and genocide occuring. The US stepped in, got both parties to the table, got the Dayton Accords signed and submitted to the UN, the next day the UN finally acts and authorizes force based on the agreements of the Dayton Accords. Today the people in Kosovo blame who for the lack of progress? The US, even though it is a UN operation.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Of course the blame will go to the US, and of course it is our responsiblity in this matter to soley make Sharon concede. This is clearly what you have complained about Bush doing in the past, why not make the international community responsible for this?

While the rest of the world carries this burden as well, it will be the US who has to take the actions necessary to see it happen, and would have been blamed either way.
No better example than Kosovo.

The EU sat idly by doing little other than non UN sanctioned actions that did little or nothing to stop the violence and genocide occuring. The US stepped in, got both parties to the table, got the Dayton Accords signed and submitted to the UN, the next day the UN finally acts and authorizes force based on the agreements of the Dayton Accords. Today the people in Kosovo blame who for the lack of progress? The US, even though it is a UN operation.

Try this next time: Instead of going off on wild tangents and repeating the same old "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" line(I can assure you its been posted many thousands of times
in these forums), stick to the issue at hand.

 

[Alistar7]

This is the issue at hand. The world wants the US to act as the tough guy at their disposal. You are preaching for Bush to unilaterally use US pressure to change another countries position, funny you didn't seem so enthused about this approach in Iraq, why is that?

It is worth noting that the US president announced that he stands strongly behind the road map and that he will accept no modifications or alterations to its clauses.

But Israel has a different opinion, announcing that it had 15 separate reservations. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says that if the American initiative is presented without these alterations, the Israeli government and the Likud Party will reject it. The Israeli ministry is composed of extreme right-wingers who will not accept the American plan as it stands.

In the face of Israel?s obstinate stand, a number of American officials have announced President Bush?s firm position on the road map and his readiness to pressure the Israeli prime minister to take the ?grueling? steps toward peace.

Faced with the American position on the establishment of a Palestinian state, Israel countered with a policy of retribution, saying that it was ready to accept the establishment of such a state and agree to the road map, but that in return Palestinian demands for the right to return ? for refugees and those expelled from their land ? must be permanently abandoned.

There's his stated and offical position and the effects his stance have had on Israeli policy, what is the rest of the world doing?

"Israel has practically rejected the initiative despite the fact that all the members of the tetra-partite committee ? the US, Russia, the EU and the UN ? back the road map and consider it the best way of achieving peace in the Middle East at this stage."

Where is the mighty EU on this one? Too busy trying to defuse their smoldering former colonies in Africa?

Why are you not suggesting the UN be the one who takes this initiative to curb Israel?
Wasn't that your whole damn point for months now? You change your moral base to every issue that suits you? Interesting look into your character I must say.

 

[etech]

Bomber Kills 3 Shoppers at Israel Mall

:...
The larger group Hamas said it carried out four attacks over the weekend that killed 13 people, including four bombers, and it made clear Monday that it would not halt the violence.

"As long as the occupation remains on our land and as long as the occupation soldiers are breathing our air we will continue our resistance," Hamas spokesman Abdel Aziz Rantisi said.
...
"

Does it really matter if Pres. Bush presses Sharon if there is no one that can stop the terrorist groups from the suicide bombings?
It doesn't seem to matter what peace process is proposed, they will continue the bombing.

Why don't they just give it a rest for awhile and give peace a chance?

 

[Alistar7]

Etech, the important thing here is to blame Bush.

It is obvious that the US is the sole superpower and should exert it's influence and ideas at will, forcing other countries to comply or else. Bush has shown his reluctance to act before, in Afghanistan, where he waited for UN approval to take action even though there is no requirement or legality generated by this acquisence.

His failure to act resolutely has hampered his power in the international community, and made America seem timid of her role in the world.

 

[dnoyeb]

Originally posted by: etech
Does it really matter if Pres. Bush presses Sharon if there is no one that can stop the terrorist groups from the suicide bombings?
It doesn't seem to matter what peace process is proposed, they will continue the bombing.

Why don't they just give it a rest for awhile and give peace a chance?

I do not see the relationship between the bombings and the peace process. Peace has a chance, all it has to do is move forward with the plan, and lets see what happens. I never expect them to give it a rest, but they can not defeat our desire nor instance for peace.

Their are those Israelis and those Palestinians that never want to see peace. The rest of us must not let those few manipulate us.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Where is the mighty EU on this one? Too busy trying to defuse their smoldering former colonies in Africa?

Why are you not suggesting the UN be the one who takes this initiative to curb Israel?
Wasn't that your whole damn point for months now? You change your moral base to every issue that suits you? Interesting look into your character I must say.

Are you a dumbass or are you just pretending to be one? Judging from your other posts, you're not, so I guess you're just arguing with me for the sake of arguing.

You know very damn well the US is the only that can actually make Israel do something. The EU and UN are both supporting the US, but everyone knows neither the UN nor the EU have enough influence over Israel to make them do anything drastic.

As for you link - that's good. I sincerely hope he does stick to the plan and doesn't give in to Sharon.

 

[Alistar7]

That has been his position from the start.


It seems rather hypocritical of the EU and the UN to rely on US efforts singlehandely in the manner so soon after Iraq. So do the calls from those who opposed Bush's decision's in Iraq, either we lead or we do not.

I agree with you though Marty, I hope Bush does stand up to Sharon in regard to settlements, ALL lands must be returned. This is an easy one for Bush. Even if we can't get Israel to concede, the public impression will benefit our cause in the ME. Israel cannot stand without us there, they know that, this is why we are being courted this time, how convienent.

what should the US do? Back out, pull all troops and equipment of out the area, stop all aid and military support to either side. Tell them and the rest of the world it is not our affair and we will not authorize the use of UN force in any event. Let the settlements, bulldozers, and terrorists continue until they all break down and beg for our help again, as they invariably have since ww1. Then we tell them we are not interested in acting as the worlds police force and would prefer this be handled by the international community, but we will veto any efforts that could make that happen.

 

[Alistar7]

Or we could sign sanctions against Israel and Sharon publicly through the UN, then contuinue selling them weapons and skirt sanctions by allowing American luxury items to find their way into his home. After he coughs up a few billion and promises of more, we can lead the moral fight to end sanctions on behalf of the good people of Israel and use our veto power to keep him in power....

 

[Phokus]

The bigger question is, will George Bush grow a backbone and stop stealing money from the American people, using it to fund Israel's military?

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
That has been his position from the start.


It seems rather hypocritical of the EU and the UN to rely on US efforts singlehandely in the manner so soon after Iraq. So do the calls from those who opposed Bush's decision's in Iraq, either we lead or we do not.

Why is that hypocritical? Why does everything have to be so polarized with you? It is not possible to agree on one thing, but not on another?

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Phokus
The bigger question is, will George Bush grow a backbone and stop stealing money from the American people, using it to fund Israel's military?

Israel recieves the majority of US aid dollars, you know what they do with the maority of that? They buy US arms with it, making sure those factories stay open and Americans have jobs. You didn't know the DOD was one of the biggest welfare projects on the books?

The Govt. could just hold onto that money and let some of them close, but them you would whine about rising unemployment.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak

Originally posted by: Alistar7
That has been his position from the start.


It seems rather hypocritical of the EU and the UN to rely on US efforts singlehandely in the manner so soon after Iraq. So do the calls from those who opposed Bush's decision's in Iraq, either we lead or we do not.

Why is that hypocritical? Why does everything have to be so polarized with you? It is not possible to agree on one thing, but not on another?

Why is it hyprocritical?

The EU and the UN criticize the US for acting outside of the international umbrella on one hand, on the other they are urging the US to act without them.

It's hardly me being "polarized", it is their lack of consistency that leads to the hypocrisy.

 

[kylebisme]

the fact is we are acting outside our "umbrella" with Israel regardless. as for the "EU and UN" as you put it (to make things sound less significant?), or majority of the world as it actually is; they just want us to be more responsible about how we go about our action. excuses about how the funding to Israel comes back to the united states though arms deal is moot considering there is more than one way to skin a cat, the rest of the world knows that we do not have to sell weapons to insure the welfare of our people and they don't buy it when such lame excuses are presented.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Phokus
The bigger question is, will George Bush grow a backbone and stop stealing money from the American people, using it to fund Israel's military?

I did not explain the arms sales to make any excuses, iwas trying to point out they money was hardly stolen from Americans, and for the money we do give away in aid, this one actually gives up the majority of it back in other ways that benefit americans.

I states the EU and the Un because they are 2 of the major players backing the plan, it is the US, Russia, the Eu, and the Un. (to make things more factual)

how is the US acting outside the umbrella with Israel? Everyone agrees the road map is the right way.

The irony in this is even when the rest of the international community agrees, they still feel the US should act alone. Make up your minds already....

 

[kylebisme]

but the UN includes the EU and pretty much the rest of the world as well. as for how we have been acting outside our umbrella; i am referring to the massive amounts of funding going to Israel, funding that has not only been creating jobs for Americans but oppressing Palestinians as well. while the former is good, the latter is the issue that we need to work on; and yes the roadmap is a good thing, one of the few things i am pleased to see this administration doing after so many prior ones have done nothing of the sort. the fact is that the US has been acting alone, the rest of the world is not calling for that as it has already been going on, they are only calling for us to be responsible about how we do it.


i don't get were you are going with your "make up your minds" argument, how do you expect them to convence us to stop fundinging the Israeli expantion? i mean really what do you recomend, do you think they should declare war on us?

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: Phokus
The bigger question is, will George Bush grow a backbone and stop stealing money from the American people, using it to fund Israel's military?

Israel recieves the majority of US aid dollars, you know what they do with the maority of that? They buy US arms with it, making sure those factories stay open and Americans have jobs. You didn't know the DOD was one of the biggest welfare projects on the books?

The Govt. could just hold onto that money and let some of them close, but them you would whine about rising unemployment.

Well then, how about the government give money to israel and israel give money to me so i can start up a few businesses? After all, i'm giving back to the american people!

 

[kylebisme]

hell, just cut the middle man out and use the money to hire more public servants for socal welfare, eudcation and road improvments. but then i guess all the old bastards that run the country and weapons manufatureing corperations would not really be up for that.

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
hell, just cut the middle man out and use the money to hire more public servants for socal welfare, eudcation and road improvments. but then i guess all the old bastards that run the country and weapons manufatureing corperations would not really be up for that.

Silly, the defense lobbyists pay too much money for that to happen.

 

[Zrom999]

Somehow Israel has made the US gov't its own personal b*tch. They keep getting money and hi-tech weapons from the US and dont give a damn what the US gov't says. Bush will never stand up to Sharon. Maybe its the US government's policy not to mess with countries with atomic weaponry at their disposal. If so they shouldn't have helped them develop it in the first place. The US would be much better off if they cut Israel off, make a deal with the Arabs since they have oil and most anti-US sentiment around the world would come to an end.

 

[Moonbeam]

Who would trade the Jewish vote for oil and an end of anti-American sentiment around the world. Surely there are alternatives like invading Iraq.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Zrom999
Somehow Israel has made the US gov't its own personal b*tch. They keep getting money and hi-tech weapons from the US and dont give a damn what the US gov't says. Bush will never stand up to Sharon. Maybe its the US government's policy not to mess with countries with atomic weaponry at their disposal. If so they shouldn't have helped them develop it in the first place. The US would be much better off if they cut Israel off, make a deal with the Arabs since they have oil and most anti-US sentiment around the world would come to an end.

I hate misinformation.

The US did NOT help Isreal develop nuclear weapons. That honor belongs to our good friends the French.

 

[etech]

Israel Army Quits Gaza Town Despite Suicide Attacks

"BEIT HANOUN, Gaza Strip - Despite a wave of Palestinian suicide bombings, Israel relaxed its military grip on Tuesday in an area of the Gaza Strip where the first steps could be taken in a U.S.-backed peace plan.

Witnesses said the Israeli army pulled out of Beit Hanoun, a northern Gaza town seized last Thursday in what the military had described as an open-ended operation to stop militants from firing homemade rockets into southern Israel.

The town is in a border area which Israel said it wanted to hand over to Palestinian security control as a proving ground for new Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas' commitment to the peace "road map" and its call to disarm and arrest gunmen.

Aides to Sharon said he planned to meet Abbas again, although no date had been set.

Showing their defiance of Abbas and opposition to the "road map," Palestinian militants from the West Bank have mounted five suicide bombings against Israelis in three days.
...."

Israel is making the first steps even while suffering from suicide bombers.

Why are the Palestinian militants so opposed to peace?

 

[Zrom999]

Your right, it was the French, my mistake. Some guy I know keeps mouthing off about the US giving them atomic weapons that I didn't bothered to look it up. He's getting smacked the next time I see him. Thanks for the heads up.