Do you Ride the B.A.R.T?

[BoomerD]

Yep, looks like the BART operators are gonna strike at the end of operations Sunday night.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...9/08/14/MNQT198EVF.DTL

"BART strike set for Monday
Rachel Gordon, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, August 14, 2009
BART train operators and station agents vowed to strike after regular service ends at midnight Sunday, which effectively would shut down the regional rail agency and force hundreds of thousands of Bay Area commuters to find alternate ways to travel Monday morning.

The decision by union leadership came after the BART Board of Directors voted unanimously Thursday to unilaterally impose a one-year contract on workers represented by Amalgamated Transit Union Local 1555.

"At this point we have no choice but to initiate a work action," said Jesse Hunt, president of the union local that represents about 900 of BART's 3,200 workers.

Both sides left the door open to renewing negotiations to end the contract dispute.

The nine-member elected BART board showed clear unity in taking a hard-line position against the transit union, whose rank-and-file members overwhelmingly rejected a contract offer earlier in the week.

Job assignments
Among the union's objections to the proposal: changes in job assignments and management's unwillingness to cut the duration of the contract in half to two years.

Two other BART unions, including its largest, ratified similar contracts earlier this week that freeze wages for four years but provide bonuses in three of those years, change work rules to give bosses more say in employees' job duties, reduce the need for overtime, and require employees to pay more for premium health care.

The contract imposed Thursday on the defiant train operators and station agents came after negotiations broke down the night before. The contract forces them to give up even more than what the union rejected. For example, unlike other BART employees, they would have to start picking up the cost of their retirement plan, which amounts to a de facto 7 percent pay cut.

"This was not an action we wanted to take," BART Board President Thomas Blalock said. "We worked tirelessly to reach a settlement through the negotiation process, but after four very long months of talks we have reached an impasse.

"As a result," he added, "ATU has left this board with no other choice. ... This is a regrettable but necessary step that we must take" to address BART's deteriorating financial situation. Part of that grim financial picture comes from declining sales tax and fare box revenue.

Cooling-off period
The showdown could lead to BART's first strike since 1997. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who can order a 60-day cooling-off period to keep the trains operating, called on both sides to work out their differences and offered the aid of state mediators, who had been involved in the talks before.

"Both sides need to resolve their disputes and come to an agreement before taking drastic action that will have an immediate effect on the daily lives of so many Californians," the governor said in a statement.

BART has a daily ridership of about 340,000. A system shutdown would lead to bigger traffic jams on Bay Area roads and bridges that would extend the normal peak commute periods, transportation officials warn. Buses, ferries and trains operated by other agencies would be packed.

Both Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums and San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom echoed the governor's plea for a negotiated resolution.

BART faces a projected $310 million deficit over the next four years, and management has been looking to help close that by getting the unions to ratify contracts that would cut labor costs by $100 million.

'Stable footing'
BART General Manager Dorothy Dugger called the contract imposition unfortunate, but said it was needed to "put this district on a more stable financial footing."

She and BART directors praised the other two unions, Service Employees International Union Local 1021 and the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees Local 3993, which together represent more than 1,600 BART workers, for ratifying cost-cutting contracts.

Both unions, however, said that if the train operators and station agents strike, they will honor the picket line.

Transit options
Here is what Bay Area transit agencies plan to do in the event of a BART strike. For details, contact the individual transit provider or, for up-to-date regional information, go to www.511.org, or call 511.

Alameda/Oakland Ferry, Alameda Harbor Bay Ferry
Plan: Double the number of daily runs between the Harbor Bay Terminal and San Francisco, and between the west Alameda and Oakland docks and San Francisco.

Contact: www.eastbayferry.com, (510) 522-3300

AC Transit
Plan: Provide extra service between the East Bay and San Francisco based on need and availability of buses and drivers. Run larger buses on transbay routes. Stops at BART stations may be relocated.

Contact: www.actransit.org; (510) 817-1717 or 511

Caltrain
Plan: No added service

Contact: www.caltrain.com; (800) 660-4287

County Connection
Plan: No specific plans to add service but will pitch in if buses and drivers are available.

Contact: www.cccta.org; (925) 676-7500

Golden Gate Transit and Ferries
Plan: Buses that serve El Cerrito Del Norte and Richmond BART stations will have stops relocated nearby. An additional ferry will operate during the morning. Other ferries will operate on regular schedules with room to accommodate additional passengers.

Contact: www.goldengate.org; 511

SamTrans
Plan: Stops at the Daly City and Colma stations will be relocated nearby. A free shuttle will take passengers to Market Street in San Francisco, where they can connect to Muni.

Contact: www.samtrans.com; (800) 660-4287

Muni
Plan: Increase bus and streetcar service on the 14-Mission, 49-Van Ness, J-Church and N-Judah lines; expand the East Bay casual carpool area on Beale Street to include 12 additional East Bay BART stations.

Contact: www.sfmta.com; 311 in San Francisco or 511 from outside the city

Vallejo Transit and Baylink Ferry
Plan: Add a fourth boat, providing three extra departures in the morning and evening. Add express bus service between the Vallejo Ferry Terminal and San Francisco Ferry Building if needed.



You probably won't find a stronger union supporter on these boards than me, but IMO, their timing sucks on this one.

With the economy in the crapper and many people out of work, taking pay cuts to keep their jobs, getting unpaid furlough days, etc., The BART train operators and station agents should bite the bullet and take their lumps with the rest of the populace.

It's always tough to give something up in negotiations because it can be impossible to get it back later, but with the BART running such a huge deficit, it's time for these employees to take a few cuts along with the other BART employees who have had to give some concessions as well.

I have no doubt that Ah-Nold will order the 60 day cooling-off period and even insist on a state negotiator to try to settle the differences between the union and the BART, but I've never thought government interference in labor issues was a good idea.

One positive about the strike...those who yell about Socialism should be happy with this. Public transit is pure socialism...and shutting it down should make them happy...:roll:

I used to commute into the Bay area...did so for years, but never was able to take BART for my commute. I always had to drive to get to my worksites. The last strike in 1997 made a huge mess of traffic, as people who normally rode the BART resorted to driving instead of finding alternative means of public transit.

 

[dammitgibs]

This is why I hate unions, I recognize their importance and necessity in our country's history but in this day and age I don't see how you can justify their existence.

Edit: In regards to your comment about public transit being pure socialism, you're a moron, sir. Good day.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Okay... well luckily I don't ride BART anymore. The South Bay has manageable traffic.

And as usual. Bleh. unions.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: dammitgibs
This is why I hate unions, I recognize their importance and necessity in our country's history but in this day and age I don't see how you can justify their existence.

Because workers have a right to organize, that's all the justification you need. To do away with that would be tyranny

Edit: In regards to your comment about public transit being pure socialism, you're a moron, sir. Good day.

Care to qualify that comment ...Sir?

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Because the industries that develop today don't need unions to do well? Unions are a thing of the past. With the regulations we have today, they're less and less important. Yes I'm sure the government = tyranny in the way they run BART and without unions we would be screwed.

We need unions because prison guards in CA make more than I do as an engineer? And then we blame not raising taxes for CA's budget problems? Pathetic.

 

[BoomerD]

I disagree with all the "Unions have no place today" types of comments. Union protections and collective bargaining is as important today as it was 100 years ago.
Left unchecked, the corporations would quickly return to the "robber baron" actions that spawned the union movement.

In many states, the passage of the "Right to Work" (for less) laws have seen a drastic drop in wages and benefits of those industries that once had union protection.

DLeRium, do you think your engineering degree makes you worth more than a prison guard?

You couldn't pay me enough to do that job. Those folks get piss and shit thrown at them regularly, have to be on constant watch for assault by the inmates, (often ARE assaulted by those inmates) and they keep watch over some of the worst dregs of society...many of whom are nothing more than vicious animals in human form.
That being said, I too believe the prison guard union has WAY too much power in Kahleeforneeya...as does the employees association that represents the CHP and other "safety class" employees.
Their retirement package is the envy of most other police and fire departments.


My comment about public transit = socialism was designed to generate comment on the benefits of such a social program.

After all, public funding of transit IS a form of socialism...something that many of the ATPN posters constantly rail against.

 

[Patranus]

Fire them all.

You have people at jobs that require no more than the G.E.D making over 100k and think they are "highly skilled" labor.

With such high unemployment I am sure that they could find replacement workers who are more skilled and would be willing to work at 1/2 the cost.

source
http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_12682351
http://bart.gov/about/jobs/descriptions/index.aspx

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I disagree with all the "Unions have no place today" types of comments. Union protections and collective bargaining is as important today as it was 100 years ago.
Left unchecked, the corporations would quickly return to the "robber baron" actions that spawned the union movement.

In many states, the passage of the "Right to Work" (for less) laws have seen a drastic drop in wages and benefits of those industries that once had union protection.

DLeRium, do you think your engineering degree makes you worth more than a prison guard?

You couldn't pay me enough to do that job. Those folks get piss and shit thrown at them regularly, have to be on constant watch for assault by the inmates, (often ARE assaulted by those inmates) and they keep watch over some of the worst dregs of society...many of whom are nothing more than vicious animals in human form.
That being said, I too believe the prison guard union has WAY too much power in Kahleeforneeya...as does the employees association that represents the CHP and other "safety class" employees.
Their retirement package is the envy of most other police and fire departments.


My comment about public transit = socialism was designed to generate comment on the benefits of such a social program.

After all, public funding of transit IS a form of socialism...something that many of the ATPN posters constantly rail against.

I actually do think it's worth more than a prison guard job, but that's just me. There's a reason why prison guard pay was low as it is. Sure it's bumped up high now and WAY too high and has caused some problems. Now, it's not like I don't respect those jobs, I give mad props to those who are willing to do it, but if we're paying out insane packages, it doesn't make sense. If unions are meant to prevent bullying, the reverse has happened. MANY unions in this nation have WAY too much power and are driving corporations into the ground. Some unions are more reasonable like nurses and teachers.

But when more professional industries like semiconductor, finance, pharmaceuticals, show you that unions are NOT necessary even when you have low paying jobs like technicians, operators, research associates, mixed with scientists, engineers, directors. The market seems to do the job well.

I do agree that we shouldn't have employees bullied by employers, but so many industries can do that just FINE. We have regulations in place, and if they can do it, why can't the unionized industries?

Public transportation is necessary but it is also a socialistic form. It's also the reason why it's run so terribly. We're against it not because we don't want trains or subway or whatever. It's because like many other things government run, it's so terribly done. It's kind of a no choice though, so we just keep letting it go and pumping billions into the system. It's kinda like the chronic headache you just keep taking Tylenol for until someone cares enough to really cure it.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Patranus
Fire them all.

You have people at jobs that require no more than the G.E.D making over 100k and think they are "highly skilled" labor.

With such high unemployment I am sure that they could find replacement workers who are more skilled and would be willing to work at 1/2 the cost.

Tradework is dangerous and yes, it is a highly skilled job.

Someone who humps their ass to rivet huge bolts into the top of the bay bridge or the Union guys who tirelessly paint it are worth it. Same thing with our dock workers who can handle multiple shipping crates the size of a railroad car each with clockwork precision.

These jobs take mad skill, and a lot of cajones. A lot more then a day trader or a guy in a cubicle.
What do you guys always say? Don't be jealous of someone who works for more then you get.

The irony in here is thick bashing people who work their asses off with the responsibility of the safety of 100s of thousands of people DAILY coming from a bunch of alleged employed well-off "self-responsible" white collar employees who have all day to sit on a forum and regurgitate right-wing anti-union talking points while sitting on their duff.

 

[BoomerD]

Unfortunately, public transit isn't likely to ever be a "profitable concern," so I doubt any company would want to take over. They'd have to jack prices so high that people wouldn't use the service. That leaves the option of government funding of a money-losing service...or discontinuing it.

Unfortunately, the "regulations" of which you speak are all too often subject to the "variable wind" of public opinion. If all unions were done away with effective on Monday, wages would start dropping across the board.
Any company that no longer has to pay union wages and benefits would stop doing so; their competitors who no longer have to compete against the higher pay of union jobs would cut pay, and so on all down the line.
This would even affect many traditional office jobs as those employers no longer have to provide good pay and benefits to (1) keep their workplace union free, (2) prevent those employees from leaving to take a job that offers higher union pay and benefits, and (3) since all their competitors are paying lower wages, they no longer have to worry about their employees bailing out to go elsewhere for more pay.

Unions are the biggest contributor to America's Middle Class.
The higher wages and benefits either provided by union jobs, or provided in response to union jobs is what drives that middle class economy.

I've never thought that ALL jobs/companies had to have unions...some work well without them, BUT, any company/industry where the employees WANT a union should have one. It's not up to the company...it's up to the workers. If they don't want a union, unless management wants to be a union shop, the employees shouldn't have to have one.

I know that goes against much of the union philosophy that was drummed into me all my life, but in reality, unions are for the workers...so they get the choice.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: dammitgibs
This is why I hate unions, I recognize their importance and necessity in our country's history but in this day and age I don't see how you can justify their existence.

Because workers have a right to organize, that's all the justification you need. To do away with that would be tyranny

Edit: In regards to your comment about public transit being pure socialism, you're a moron, sir. Good day.

Care to qualify that comment ...Sir?

Do employers have the right to employ whomever they want? Who's the tyrant now?

 

[Kntx]

At least this will keep the transit cops from shooting anyone.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: JS80


Do employers have the right to employ whomever they want? Who's the tyrant now?

Not if they sign a contract.

 

[Slew Foot]

The starting salary for a BART driver was like 75k back in 2002, f' that.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
The starting salary for a BART driver was like 75k back in 2002, f' that.

Untrue,you can search salaries of all types of BART employees here

Bese salary for a operator is about 62-70 depending on experience it can just get to 100k.

Not so bad considering each operator is responsible for the safety of 100s of thousands of people a day they drive for.

Not many jobs out there with more responsibility hanging over your head.

Same for track welders/layers. These are the guys on the front lines who cleanup messes like this inside tunnels in a hour or two to get things moving again.

 

[dammitgibs]

It's one thing for a company like GM to have union workers, and when the union demands so much that the company can't sustain itself it goes bankrupt, I mean the government buys them out, they have essentially negotiated themselves out of a job. But for a public sector like BART that is already operating at a deficit and the workers demand more, BART isn't going to go out of business, it will just continue to operate a bigger deficit at the expense of the tax payers. That doesn't seem right to me.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
The starting salary for a BART driver was like 75k back in 2002, f' that.

Untrue,you can search salaries of all types of BART employees here

Bese salary for a operator is about 62-70 depending on experience it can just get to 100k.

Not so bad considering each operator is responsible for the safety of 100s of thousands of people a day they drive for.

Not many jobs out there with more responsibility hanging over your head.

Same for track welders/layers. These are the guys on the front lines who cleanup messes like this inside tunnels in a hour or two to get things moving again.

Bullshit about the level of responsibility. Nurses literally have lives in their hands.

However, I wonder if the backlash against the unions is simply envy. Engineers are allegedly "smart." Yet, they'll happily work 60 hours or more a week, without receiving overtime, because they believe that their employer has a "right" to make them work as many hours as they possibly can, lest they lose their job.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Bullshit about the level of responsibility. Nurses literally have lives in their hands.

Funny that you should bring them up also.

Engineers are welcome to unionize also if getting screwed.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
The starting salary for a BART driver was like 75k back in 2002, f' that.

Untrue,you can search salaries of all types of BART employees here

Bese salary for a operator is about 62-70 depending on experience it can just get to 100k.

Not so bad considering each operator is responsible for the safety of 100s of thousands of people a day they drive for.

Not many jobs out there with more responsibility hanging over your head.

Same for track welders/layers. These are the guys on the front lines who cleanup messes like this inside tunnels in a hour or two to get things moving again.

Bullshit about the level of responsibility. Nurses literally have lives in their hands.

However, I wonder if the backlash against the unions is simply envy. Engineers are allegedly "smart." Yet, they'll happily work 60 hours or more a week, without receiving overtime, because they believe that their employer has a "right" to make them work as many hours as they possibly can, lest they lose their job.

You know very well 60 hours a week isnt the average for an engineer. I have friends at Yahoo, Cisco, Apple, Broadcom, and Google, and even myself I don't work 60 hours a week at a startup. I HAVE before, but you make it sound bad when it isn't.

You can say engineers are smart or whatever, but it's the way things get done at a company. Can you expect blue collar labor to operate with the same level of professionalism and sense of responsibility/leadership? Unionized wages have climbed so much in the last decade. Engineers have had roughly the same starting salaries in the past decade. We used to be making plenty more than others, but it's clearly not the case anymore. Maybe I do envy people less educated than me starting at 80k a year, but I also feel no pity when tough times come around and Arnold announces 3 furlough days a month and massive pay cuts for state workers. I also feel no sympathy when the company (like GM) realizes that this kind of business model cannot sustain itself and is just raping itself through traditional unionized labor.

Look, I'm all for treating workers properly, but when unions screw over companies and it comes back to bite them in the ass with unprofitable business models, lack of progress, etc etc, then I laugh. It's a pity the semiconductor industry just does too well without unionized labor. You have to admit they did a lot of things too well and are still a great model for today's new industries.

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Bullshit about the level of responsibility. Nurses literally have lives in their hands.

Funny that you should bring them up also.

Engineers are welcome to unionize also if getting screwed.

Exactly, engineers should have unionized a long time ago. You'll notice who's still making bank these days, doctors, lawyers and skilled construction tradesmen, all people with effective unions.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Bullshit about the level of responsibility. Nurses literally have lives in their hands.

Funny that you should bring them up also.

Engineers are welcome to unionize also if getting screwed.

Exactly, engineers should have unionized a long time ago. You'll notice who's still making bank these days, doctors, lawyers and skilled construction tradesmen, all people with effective unions.

What about CEOs, bankers, finance, the people who got million dollar bonuses? You must be kidding me.

If engineers really have it THAT bad then Santa Clara County wouldn't be one of the top median income counties in the US.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: dammitgibs
This is why I hate unions, I recognize their importance and necessity in our country's history but in this day and age I don't see how you can justify their existence.

Because workers have a right to organize, that's all the justification you need. To do away with that would be tyranny

Edit: In regards to your comment about public transit being pure socialism, you're a moron, sir. Good day.

Care to qualify that comment ...Sir?

Do employers have the right to employ whomever they want? Who's the tyrant now?

Yes they do.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: DLeRium

If engineers really have it THAT bad then Santa Clara County wouldn't be one of the top median income counties in the US.

Yet the more Engineers that moved to the South Bay the lower the quality of life in general there. Coincidence?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: DLeRium

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Bullshit about the level of responsibility. Nurses literally have lives in their hands.

Funny that you should bring them up also.

Engineers are welcome to unionize also if getting screwed.

Exactly, engineers should have unionized a long time ago. You'll notice who's still making bank these days, doctors, lawyers and skilled construction tradesmen, all people with effective unions.

What about CEOs, bankers, finance, the people who got million dollar bonuses? You must be kidding me.

If engineers really have it THAT bad then Santa Clara County wouldn't be one of the top median income counties in the US.

They also employ tons of temp workers/overworked stressed out always on theverge of being laid offemployees that provide the CEOs with low income labor so they can milk workers and pass on costs to consumers.

As far as CCC median incomes:
If I put Bill Gates in the room with you you bet the average income would rise.

Does not mean you both are well paid.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I prefer'd using the casual carpool over the BART when I lived in the Bay Area.