Do you predict economic collapse?

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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What do you think of this?:
"I believe there are new complexities from the time Mises wrote Socialism. First, investors are much more inflation-aware than they have ever been in history. Inflation is no longer treated as "pesky but inconsequential" by anyone but academics and politicians. The heavily inflationary environment is precisely what is driving the new boom in the hedge-fund industry. Hedge-funds are essentially inflation-avoidance vehicles for the wealthy which is the real reason the pols are all up-in-arms about them.
Second, I believe that policy-makers like Bernanke are frankly two-faced - they say "inflation will save the economy" for the TV cameras because that's what they're supposed to say but, behind closed doors, I think they (Federal Reserve board and whoever their superiors are...) understand ABCT even while they publicly renounce it. The way the Fed inflated during 2009/2010 was so odd... they flooded the reserve accounts of member banks at the Fed but didn't actually put that much new money into the economy beyond what was needed to bail out their buddies. So, it's like they were pretending to inflate but were reluctant to really inflate. Bernanke said, "even a credible threat of inflation" is sufficient to drive investors out and get the economy flowing again. I find his choice of words ... "credible threat" to be very interesting. I think the Fed is playing games at a much more sophisticated level than it did in 1929.
The net effect of inflation is to tax and it's important to remember that. Inflation is a particularly bad kind of tax because it distorts the capital structure of the entire economy... that's ABCT. But every tax distorts the market to one degree or another. Inflation centralizes economic decision-making by putting more wealth in the hands of the central planners in the State. This doesn't automatically entail that the economy will crash but it does entail that we're all going to be getting a lot poorer as the division of labor is broken down and we are driven backwards into a tribal barter economy. The longer the US government is able to persist in this game the worse things will become in the long run. At some point, people will begin starving in the streets as production becomes so discoordinated with demand that even the most primitive forms of production (i.e. farming) break down. This is the road to serfdom and we're all in a forced-march on it right now.
I do believe there was some kind of coordinated, secret political plan that began in September 2001 but which began breaking down around the time of the Copenhagen climate summit in December 2009. That is good news. My hope is that things continue to break down further but without an outbreak of open war. You can see that the messaging for a global currency has broken down. China and other developing countries are not playing ball with this carbon-tax and cap&trade nonsense. The whole global warming thing appears to be going the way of the ozone hole... to obscurity and eventually the memory hole. But the problems on the home-front remain... we're in for either massive privation or massive social unrest as the promises of the Federal government to retirees become unfulfillable without putting working-age people in chain-gangs to pay their Social Security "obligations." I predict that, within a decade, Social Security will not exist in its present form. This is the biggest change coming within the United States. Health care is going to change big-time as well since I believe the purpose of Universal Healthcare was to make an end-run around the Medicare problem. Basically, at a convenient time, Medicare will be absorbed into the Universal Healthcare system. All those "unfunded obligations" will simply evaporate and we will have fully nationalized health care instead.
Sorry for rambling... back on-topic... the money that's been printed so far may or may not lead to massive inflation, depending on how the Fed sets its internal policies to either sop up the excess cash or spread it far and wide. But that's all tactical (important for short-term decisions... but it doesn't tell us anything about the long-term). This is where you have to turn to Marc Faber... his argument is that basically the US government has no choice, their back is up against the wall. They can't collect significantly more tax revenues because the American public simply won't tolerate it. Wealthy Americans are, by and large, already defending themselves against any strategy the US government might deploy to try to soak them... they're buying immovable assets overseas, they're moving their money into cash or bullion or other forms that cannot be traced by the Feds. So, "raising taxes" is a joke, not gonna happen to any meaningful degree. They can't borrow much more than they're already borrowing... we're at 97% debt to GDP, by next year it will be over 100% debt to GDP... China isn't going to bail us out by buying more of our crap bonds and other institutional investors have lost interest in US bonds... and even domestic investors don't want US bonds, either. Everybody's running for the exits because nobody can see how the US government is going to continue business-as-usual and collect enough surplus to keep paying the interest on its debts. Once the point is reached where bond investors no longer believe the US government can continue business-as-usual and pay interest on its debts, the US government is going to wake up and find out that there are forces in the world much, much more powerful than itself. All the aircraft carriers in the world won't deliver the US government from a crash in the US bond market.
This logically leaves only one possible option: print, print, print. And Faber says it best, they will print and print and print until the final collapse. And this is what I envision happening:
1) We will wake up one morning and the bond market is crashing... US gov't blames speculators, asks Europe for help reining in financial "vigilantes"... they already have a smear-term ready to deploy on the bond traders. News will probably emerge that China has been secretly dumping its US bond holdings and is holding a fraction of the bonds it has publicly stated it is holding.
2) As the crisis progresses, it will become way, way, way bigger than anything that can be addressed by slapping fines on PIMCO or raiding the offices of hedge funds... there's an across-the-board run for the exits. The US government will literally have to stop sending benefits checks out and stop payment on paychecks to all "non-essential" personnel. US revenues will take a good 25%-30% cut in a matter of weeks.
3) Emergency measures will be deployed by the government in response to the financial crisis. The Fed will print money like there's no tomorrow. The dollar will begin a true crash in the FOREX, maybe plunging as low as 10 cents on the dollar.
4) Now will be the time for overhauling Social Security due to the "crisis." The trillions sitting in 401(k) and IRA accounts will be earmarked for transition to a new "national retirement system" - sure, you will be able to opt-out but you will have to pay a 50% exit tax.
5) This will staunch the bleeding for a few years but people will be really upset when they start collecting their shiny new national retirement pensions. They will find that while the national retirement pension is nominally the same as the 401(k) or IRA they had cashed in a few years ago, the dollar was cut to 10 cents of its original value in the interim by a tsunami of new money printing.
How else do you think the Rahm Emmanuels and Cass Sunsteins can be so damn smug? They've alreayd worked out how they're going to handle this thing when it crashes... for now, they just gotta keep it on the tracks until we all reach the cliff... then they'll break out the "parachutes" and you can pick your poison.... lose half your money on the exit tax or keep the nominal value in the national retirement fund and ride the dollar devaluation all the way down to the bottom."

I think that's basically a perfect prediction of the coming economic collapse.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Not surprising fundamentalist minded people always call doomsday as it is a perfect carrot stick to justify extremist and 'crisis' mode of thinking. Really depressing way to live.

Ever wonder in the year 665 how many people freaked out in the dark ages?

Scaaary times ahead oh noes!
 

matt0611

Golden Member
Oct 22, 2010
1,879
0
0
If we stay the course then yes, we will see another economic collapse, one that the government will not be able to re-inflate us into. Will it be the end of the world? No. Will it be pretty bad? Yes.

Whenever there is a collapse or crisis there is always another power grab by government. What you posted is just one of many scenarios that I could see happening.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
10,948
3,459
136
USA s coming economic turmoil will effect only the low
and meddle classes while the bourgeois class will even
increase its share of the pie given its involvment in the
globalised economy..
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
USA s coming economic turmoil will effect only the low
and meddle classes while the bourgeois class will even
increase its share of the pie given its involvment in the
globalised economy..


Wut?
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
0
I do predict economic collapse, but because of unregulated capitalism, not socialism or specific federal monetary policies (though I do agree that those policies are mostly bad and will contribute to the fall in the end).
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
Economic collapse, no.

Another great depression...very likely in my opinion. We are on a course that has never been tried before -- attempting to reinflate our way out of a potentially deflationary scenario (huge labor market slack, depressed home prices, crushing personal debts (mostly mortgages) that people have no hope of repaying without job growth). I believe the Fed's efforts will buy us time but in the end, we will suffer deflation because the negative social mood from the realization there is no quick fix to our debt problems will overpower the Fed's ability to pump money into the system.

At the end of the day, debt is the problem and there is nothing that will make that go away except for time or for deflation to make the lenders take a loss. A stock market wipeout and a Depression are simply the ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS of the wipeout. But that is not when you wiped out. You wiped out the day you borrowed more money than you ever had a prayer of paying back. Kind of like jumping out a 30 story window...just because you haven't hit the ground right away doesn't mean you aren't already dead.

Sorry for that macabre example. But I work in the financial services industry and while many companies are reporting decent earnings, I don't see enough hiring taking place in the U.S. to give the struggling unemployed sufficient relief. Companies earnings are good because of cheap money from the Fed and from their foreign operations. But that is not translating into jobs HERE.

Meanwhile the malls and restaurants around me in NJ are suddenly getting very quiet again and there are sales galore. Trading volumes across many different asset classes (EM, Converts, High Yield, High Grades, even equities) are shrinking as investors are running out of attractive investment opportunities (given credit spreads as well as equity valuations are back to pre-2008 wipeout peaks). The US Treasury market has started to rally again which could be a signal that the bond market is sniffing out recession in the near future. I believe that come YE2011 we may very well be there again and I am concerned.
 
Last edited:

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
What do you think of this?:
"I believe there are new complexities from the time Mises wrote Socialism. First, investors are much more inflation-aware than they have ever been in history. Inflation is no longer treated as "pesky but inconsequential" by anyone but academics and politicians. The heavily inflationary environment is precisely what is driving the new boom in the hedge-fund industry. Hedge-funds are essentially inflation-avoidance vehicles for the wealthy which is the real reason the pols are all up-in-arms about them.
Second, I believe that policy-makers like Bernanke are frankly two-faced - they say "inflation will save the economy" for the TV cameras because that's what they're supposed to say but, behind closed doors, I think they (Federal Reserve board and whoever their superiors are...) understand ABCT even while they publicly renounce it. The way the Fed inflated during 2009/2010 was so odd... they flooded the reserve accounts of member banks at the Fed but didn't actually put that much new money into the economy beyond what was needed to bail out their buddies. So, it's like they were pretending to inflate but were reluctant to really inflate. Bernanke said, "even a credible threat of inflation" is sufficient to drive investors out and get the economy flowing again. I find his choice of words ... "credible threat" to be very interesting. I think the Fed is playing games at a much more sophisticated level than it did in 1929.
The net effect of inflation is to tax and it's important to remember that. Inflation is a particularly bad kind of tax because it distorts the capital structure of the entire economy... that's ABCT. But every tax distorts the market to one degree or another. Inflation centralizes economic decision-making by putting more wealth in the hands of the central planners in the State. This doesn't automatically entail that the economy will crash but it does entail that we're all going to be getting a lot poorer as the division of labor is broken down and we are driven backwards into a tribal barter economy. The longer the US government is able to persist in this game the worse things will become in the long run. At some point, people will begin starving in the streets as production becomes so discoordinated with demand that even the most primitive forms of production (i.e. farming) break down. This is the road to serfdom and we're all in a forced-march on it right now.
I do believe there was some kind of coordinated, secret political plan that began in September 2001 but which began breaking down around the time of the Copenhagen climate summit in December 2009. That is good news. My hope is that things continue to break down further but without an outbreak of open war. You can see that the messaging for a global currency has broken down. China and other developing countries are not playing ball with this carbon-tax and cap&trade nonsense. The whole global warming thing appears to be going the way of the ozone hole... to obscurity and eventually the memory hole. But the problems on the home-front remain... we're in for either massive privation or massive social unrest as the promises of the Federal government to retirees become unfulfillable without putting working-age people in chain-gangs to pay their Social Security "obligations." I predict that, within a decade, Social Security will not exist in its present form. This is the biggest change coming within the United States. Health care is going to change big-time as well since I believe the purpose of Universal Healthcare was to make an end-run around the Medicare problem. Basically, at a convenient time, Medicare will be absorbed into the Universal Healthcare system. All those "unfunded obligations" will simply evaporate and we will have fully nationalized health care instead.
Sorry for rambling... back on-topic... the money that's been printed so far may or may not lead to massive inflation, depending on how the Fed sets its internal policies to either sop up the excess cash or spread it far and wide. But that's all tactical (important for short-term decisions... but it doesn't tell us anything about the long-term). This is where you have to turn to Marc Faber... his argument is that basically the US government has no choice, their back is up against the wall. They can't collect significantly more tax revenues because the American public simply won't tolerate it. Wealthy Americans are, by and large, already defending themselves against any strategy the US government might deploy to try to soak them... they're buying immovable assets overseas, they're moving their money into cash or bullion or other forms that cannot be traced by the Feds. So, "raising taxes" is a joke, not gonna happen to any meaningful degree. They can't borrow much more than they're already borrowing... we're at 97% debt to GDP, by next year it will be over 100% debt to GDP... China isn't going to bail us out by buying more of our crap bonds and other institutional investors have lost interest in US bonds... and even domestic investors don't want US bonds, either. Everybody's running for the exits because nobody can see how the US government is going to continue business-as-usual and collect enough surplus to keep paying the interest on its debts. Once the point is reached where bond investors no longer believe the US government can continue business-as-usual and pay interest on its debts, the US government is going to wake up and find out that there are forces in the world much, much more powerful than itself. All the aircraft carriers in the world won't deliver the US government from a crash in the US bond market.
This logically leaves only one possible option: print, print, print. And Faber says it best, they will print and print and print until the final collapse. And this is what I envision happening:
1) We will wake up one morning and the bond market is crashing... US gov't blames speculators, asks Europe for help reining in financial "vigilantes"... they already have a smear-term ready to deploy on the bond traders. News will probably emerge that China has been secretly dumping its US bond holdings and is holding a fraction of the bonds it has publicly stated it is holding.
2) As the crisis progresses, it will become way, way, way bigger than anything that can be addressed by slapping fines on PIMCO or raiding the offices of hedge funds... there's an across-the-board run for the exits. The US government will literally have to stop sending benefits checks out and stop payment on paychecks to all "non-essential" personnel. US revenues will take a good 25%-30% cut in a matter of weeks.
3) Emergency measures will be deployed by the government in response to the financial crisis. The Fed will print money like there's no tomorrow. The dollar will begin a true crash in the FOREX, maybe plunging as low as 10 cents on the dollar.
4) Now will be the time for overhauling Social Security due to the "crisis." The trillions sitting in 401(k) and IRA accounts will be earmarked for transition to a new "national retirement system" - sure, you will be able to opt-out but you will have to pay a 50% exit tax.
5) This will staunch the bleeding for a few years but people will be really upset when they start collecting their shiny new national retirement pensions. They will find that while the national retirement pension is nominally the same as the 401(k) or IRA they had cashed in a few years ago, the dollar was cut to 10 cents of its original value in the interim by a tsunami of new money printing.
How else do you think the Rahm Emmanuels and Cass Sunsteins can be so damn smug? They've alreayd worked out how they're going to handle this thing when it crashes... for now, they just gotta keep it on the tracks until we all reach the cliff... then they'll break out the "parachutes" and you can pick your poison.... lose half your money on the exit tax or keep the nominal value in the national retirement fund and ride the dollar devaluation all the way down to the bottom."

I think that's basically a perfect prediction of the coming economic collapse.
Wall of text, not reading it.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Not surprising fundamentalist minded people always call doomsday as it is a perfect carrot stick to justify extremist and 'crisis' mode of thinking. Really depressing way to live.

Ever wonder in the year 665 how many people freaked out in the dark ages?

Scaaary times ahead oh noes!

lol the #1 money man in the world, Bill Gross, is not some fundi. All those pols mentioning "unsustainable" in SotU speech are not fundis.. But keep on keepin on.

head-in-the-sand.jpg
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
lol the #1 money man in the world, Bill Gross, is not some fundi. All those pols mentioning "unsustainable" in SotU speech are not fundis.. But keep on keepin on.

head-in-the-sand.jpg

What's amusing is that Gross sold low, bonds have rallied something like 10-15% in the last several weeks. He has even reversed his position if the economy goes into a recession, saying that he would then buy bonds again.

What you're not getting is that Gross' position was only predicated upon the Gov't not easing fiscal and the Fed not easing monetary policies as the economy took off, creating inflation, reducing yields on the bonds (or making them go negative). His was nothing more than a temporal play, but he lost on it to the detriment of Pimco investors.

If you don't understand what bond guys think about, don't opine on bond guys.

Yes, I am a bond guy.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Do you mean collapse to a point where we will become a third world country? Uh no.

Our nation is well on its way to becoming a third world country. According to one report I've read, our nation has lost 10% of its middle class jobs over the past ten years.

In the meantime, Global Labor Arbitrage dictates that we become a third world country because foreign outsourcing, H-1B and L-1 visas, and mass immigration dictate lower compensation for Americans through the economic forces of supply (of labor) and demand (for labor). In an effort to compete our government will feel pressure to reduce environmental regulations, labor regulations, and health and safety regulations. (There was a news report a while back about how the Republicans wanted to reduce OHSA funding.)

Did I mention that our nation's population is also exploding as a result of mass immigration? One of the hallmarks of most third world countries is overpopulation--too few resources (arable land, water, etc.) available for the amount of people in the country. We are already the world's 3rd most populous nation and we're on track to be at 400-450 million by 2050.

I definitely think we're headed for economic collapse in terms of our becoming a third world country. The rich will still be rich, but the majority of Americans will be poor.

Here are two articles you may find interesting. Note that not only are many people only able to find low wage jobs, but the also often have student loans and lost years of opportunity cost (spent preparing for non-existent white collar jobs) on top of it, adding insult to injury.

Why Did 17 Million People Go to College?

From Wall Street to Wal-Mart: Why College Graduates Are Not Getting Good Jobs

In an effort to escape the rising tide of low wages and misery that are engulfing the lower classes, Americans have been falling all over themselves to go to college. Unfortunately we have far, far more college graduates than there are college-education-requiring jobs for them. Many end up as members of the "indentured educated class".
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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I guess it may not be an economic collapse, but it will not be good for the people.

I really wish more people were more willing to give up government entitlements, especially those who don't need them. Our standing military (also an entitlement) has to be abolished, and the sooner it is, the better off everyone but the war profiteers will be. Guerilla warfare against an invader is better. It beats the brute force of an invading army every time.

The worst mentality people have about social security is that they think they paid for their own handout, when they didn't, as that money was spent long ago. They also should only allow the poorest 8 million citizens to be on medicare.

The thing that really bothers me is that Obama campaigned as a champion of the common people, yet he keeps giving cost of living increases to multimillionaires, when he could actually cut their SS paychecks and take them off of medicare. It's not the fault of future generations if the older people can't continue to live beyond-luxurious life styles at the expense of most. I mean, if Obama actually capped SS payments at $2.15k/mo/person and not give cost of living increases for 5 years, does he know how much money that would save? They should also gradually raise the retirement age as Thomas Woods suggested. But Obama is a plutocrat who is possibly making a pathetic attempt to disguise himself as a socialist, so he'd never do any of that.
 

Ponce

Member
May 2, 2011
32
0
0
It will be more than an economic colapse but a society colapse.....the only reason that it wil be worse than it should be is because the people will make it so. I have already being there and know what it will look like......but........here in the states it will be worse than where I was at......"Get ready today and you won't be sorry tomorrow"... Ponce
 

jruchko

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May 5, 2010
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RFE

Member
Dec 15, 2007
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61
I guess it may not be an economic collapse, but it will not be good for the people.

.........
The worst mentality people have about social security is that they think they paid for their own handout, when they didn't, as that money was spent long ago. They also should only allow the poorest 8 million citizens to be on medicare.

.......

Describing Social Security as a handout seems a bit over the top. You do realize that there are many people out there who paid/have been paying into that system for dozens of years. For people who paid into that system throughout their entire working lives, does it seem appropriate to call it a hand out?