do you into motorbikes?

[DigDog]

so,

I mentioned I did my recent test. as you know I used to have a license, it expired, I never renewed it, it disappeared in the bowels of Italian bureaucracy.
And I did my driving test on two Suzuki SV650. One of them had a really rough engine down at low revs, and under that basically no power at all, which is horrible when y' tryin to do a U-turn test. Genuinely could not drive the damn thing, stalling at traffic lights, bike goes straight on bends, etc. Like I had never ridden before.
The second SV650 was not as bad, but it's still kinda of a bad bike. I had a buddy who owned one oif the first series (these are relatively new models) and that one wasn't any better, although the suspensions are not complete **** now.

But, my point is:

I don't like the multistrada, but once you've driven a ducati, nothing else feels like it. And I would even pick the multistrada over just about anything JUST to have a clutch that works as god intended.

I've been pretty lucky in my life, having driven the 748R (amazing), Honda Superblackbird (also amazing), and honestly the only bike I didn't like was my ridiculously-expensive MV F4 - for a 750 with 120hp, it had no power at all during most of the range, and very hard to handle in any situation that isn't max-rev.

My GPz and Guzzi were honest, hardworking bikes that were totally satisfying (even though they would occasionally lose a piece or two), but the ducati is just on another level. EVERYTHING is perfect, the chassis, the brakes, the gears, the power band, the clutch.

Believe me, I really, really want a 848 or a 1098. But I cannot afford them (coming in at around 6/7 grand used), cannot pay for the maintenance (not trying to further those myths that ducati costs 3x the rest), and I know that they are exactly the kind of bike that gets stolen.

 

[jdoggg12]

I'll preface that I've been riding for 20 years, owned many bikes, taught classes, was track day instructor, racer, etc....

SV650 was the gold standard of entry-level, scalable bikes for nearly 2 decades. The ones you rode were either in disrepair or poorly setup. They're the civics of motorctcles. Masters of nothing, failures at nothing. For the price, you can put a good suspension on them and keep up with nearly anything ridden by a decent rider.

Nothing feels like a Ducati.... or an MV, Husky, Aprilia, Gas Gas, Ural, or any of the relatively niche/high-end/outlier brands. They're not necessarily better just because they're different.... I rarely see anyone racing with them despite their racing lifestyle image. (IMO it's a reliability issue).

You might change gears and look into the other brawler bikes - KTM Superduke, or 790 Duke, MT09 or 10, Street Triple, or Monster 821.

I have a WR250, 701SM, and R3/R6. I race my R3, track my R6, street/track my 701, and everything on the WR. My R3 is the mot fun on the track. 701 is most fun on the street. I never would've guessed that'd be the case before riding them....

 

[DigDog]

well, i got my Falco now, still have not ridden it once because i went on holiday and still need to finish my last driving test, although i did fire her up just to hear the noise.
But, if i get confirmed here at work this december, im gonna seriously look at a 848/1098.

 

[CZroe]

I'll preface that I've been riding for 20 years, owned many bikes, taught classes, was track day instructor, racer, etc....

SV650 was the gold standard of entry-level, scalable bikes for nearly 2 decades. The ones you rode were either in disrepair or poorly setup. They're the civics of motorctcles. Masters of nothing, failures at nothing. For the price, you can put a good suspension on them and keep up with nearly anything ridden by a decent rider.

Nothing feels like a Ducati.... or an MV, Husky, Aprilia, Gas Gas, Ural, or any of the relatively niche/high-end/outlier brands. They're not necessarily better just because they're different.... I rarely see anyone racing with them despite their racing lifestyle image. (IMO it's a reliability issue).

You might change gears and look into the other brawler bikes - KTM Superduke, or 790 Duke, MT09 or 10, Street Triple, or Monster 821.

I have a WR250, 701SM, and R3/R6. I race my R3, track my R6, street/track my 701, and everything on the WR. My R3 is the mot fun on the track. 701 is most fun on the street. I never would've guessed that'd be the case before riding them....

Regular Car Reviews reviewed the SV650 yesterday and spent the whole video railing against the idea that the SV650 is a beginner bike ("entry-level").

 

[jdoggg12]

Regular Car Reviews reviewed the SV650 yesterday and spent the whole video railing against the idea that the SV650 is a beginner bike ("entry-level").

Yet, in contrast, nearly every motorcycle-focused review site, instructor, or seasoned rider I know recommends it as a fantastic first bike. Will a 250 be easier to learn on? Of course. Will most riders tire of the 250 in their first year? Absolutely. I LOVE my R3 (300) on the race track but it is anemic for street use, where it's nearly impossible to keep its momentum up like on the track. The SV isn't THAT much faster. The 650 is literally half the power of an I4 600. It is docile yet capable. Nimble but not twitchy. Sporty yet civilized. Inexpensive but not cheap.

In my honest opinion if you cannot handle the SV650 AFTER you've done the MSF/CMSP (or whatever your local training cert is) then you might not be cut out for riding a motorcycle.

 

[CZroe]

Yet, in contrast, nearly every motorcycle-focused review site, instructor, or seasoned rider I know recommends it as a fantastic first bike. Will a 250 be easier to learn on? Of course. Will most riders tire of the 250 in their first year? Absolutely. I LOVE my R3 (300) on the race track but it is anemic for street use, where it's nearly impossible to keep its momentum up like on the track. The SV isn't THAT much faster. The 650 is literally half the power of an I4 600. It is docile yet capable. Nimble but not twitchy. Sporty yet civilized. Inexpensive but not cheap.

In my honest opinion if you cannot handle the SV650 AFTER you've done the MSF/CMSP (or whatever your local training cert is) then you might not be cut out for riding a motorcycle.

Yes, even RCR acknowledges that it's a pervasive notion. That's why they felt compelled to speak out against it as much as they did.

It isn't like everything that isn't a supersport is a beginner bike. There's room in between.

Isn't the R3 single-cylinder, like the CBR300? That should mean more torque down low than a 2-cyl like the Ninja 300/400. At least the high-revving 2-cyl beginner bikes will still get up and go when you ring their neck but the single-cylinder bikes should be even better at it... like a KLR650 versus a Ninja 650. Ninja is better at speed while KLR is better off the line, or at least that's the understanding I got from the old Ninja 250 versus CBR250 arguments.

 

[rstrohkirch]

Naw, the R3 is a twin. Most of them are twins.

In regards to the SV650, I owned that exact model/year/color in that video. It's the bike I'm on in my avatar. I agree that it was the best bike per dollar I've ever owned. For street bikes anyway. I re-did the suspension, put on better brake pads and took it to the track multiple times.

In regards to beginners on a SV650, I personally feel it's at the very top of the acceptable range to learn on. Which is around 65-70hp. On the flip side I think all these 250/300cc bikes are too small for a street bike. I think the best range to start on is around a 50-60hp bike.

 

[jdoggg12]

Naw, the R3 is a twin. Most of them are twins.

In regards to the SV650, I owned that exact model/year/color in that video. It's the bike I'm on in my avatar. I agree that it was the best bike per dollar I've ever owned. For street bikes anyway. I re-did the suspension, put on better brake pads and took it to the track multiple times.

In regards to beginners on a SV650, I personally feel it's at the very top of the acceptable range to learn on. Which is around 65-70hp. On the flip side I think all these 250/300cc bikes are too small for a street bike. I think the best range to start on is around a 50-60hp bike.

Agreed.

Yes, even RCR acknowledges that it's a pervasive notion. That's why they felt compelled to speak out against it as much as they did.

It isn't like everything that isn't a supersport is a beginner bike. There's room in between.

Isn't the R3 single-cylinder, like the CBR300? That should mean more torque down low than a 2-cyl like the Ninja 300/400. At least the high-revving 2-cyl beginner bikes will still get up and go when you ring their neck but the single-cylinder bikes should be even better at it... like a KLR650 versus a Ninja 650. Ninja is better at speed while KLR is better off the line, or at least that's the understanding I got from the old Ninja 250 versus CBR250 arguments.

As he said, the R3 is a twin. There are very few sport/standard singles under 400cc. Off the top of my head the 390 Duke is the only one I can think of, currently being sold, mainstream.

The singles are worse at getting up and going. Is that what you mean? That they're easier for a noob?

As for the two you mentioned:

The KLR650
Big single is pretty docile for a single (not even 40hp, 33ft⋅lb)
Lazy/docile body compared to the Ninja.
It's a pig for a mid-side enduro at ~430lbs (by comparison, my 690cc single cylinder 701 super moto is 330lbs with 72hp and 55ft⋅lb of torque)
Great for noobs and seasoned riders looking for a do-anything bike that won't get you there in a hurry

The Ninja 650
Docile twin engine (70 hp, 48ft-lb)
Eager/twitchy body compared to the KLR
Decent bike for low-intermediate to advanced-intermediate riders for sporty riding - has potential to be a good overall bike but its sport design will be less friendly to newer riders

The ninja will wipe the floor with the KLR for acceleration and top speed. The KLR is down-tuned for reliability - they'll run forever.

 

[CZroe]

Agreed.



As he said, the R3 is a twin. There are very few sport/standard singles under 400cc. Off the top of my head the 390 Duke is the only one I can think of, currently being sold, mainstream.

The singles are worse at getting up and going. Is that what you mean? That they're easier for a noob?

As for the two you mentioned:

The KLR650
Big single is pretty docile for a single (not even 40hp, 33ft⋅lb)
Lazy/docile body compared to the Ninja.
It's a pig for a mid-side enduro at ~430lbs (by comparison, my 690cc single cylinder 701 super moto is 330lbs with 72hp and 55ft⋅lb of torque)
Great for noobs and seasoned riders looking for a do-anything bike that won't get you there in a hurry

The Ninja 650
Docile twin engine (70 hp, 48ft-lb)
Eager/twitchy body compared to the KLR
Decent bike for low-intermediate to advanced-intermediate riders for sporty riding - has potential to be a good overall bike but its sport design will be less friendly to newer riders

The ninja will wipe the floor with the KLR for acceleration and top speed. The KLR is down-tuned for reliability - they'll run forever.

The RC390 is the other single-cylinder low-cc sportbike I was thinking of but I assume it's got a lot in common with the Duke.

I was told that twins have higher top speed and accelerate better at-speed (passing power) compared to a single-cylinder engine of similar displacement, while single-cylinder engines have more torque down low and, thus, will accelerate better at low speeds (off road or starting from a stop light at reasonable RPMs). From rest/low speed. That's what I mean by "get up and go." They're also less comfortable for stop and go commuting ("thumpers") where you might otherwise think the low end torque is helpful.

Not saying it's true, but if so I can see where it might give a worse impression of other low-cc bikes which, as you say, are generally two-cylinder.

 

[mindless1]

You can't bother to title and compose your own topic message, can't construct grammar to write the body of your topic, then want us to give advice?

Okay, stay off public roads, you can't handle the most basic task of communication so without question, you cannot handle driving among other people in a car, but a motorcycle? No. You are going to cause someone severe injury and it is amazing to me that nobody else picked up on this yet.

 

[CZroe]

You can't bother to title and compose your own topic message, can't construct grammar to write the body of your topic, then want us to give advice?

Okay, stay off public roads, you can't handle the most basic task of communication so without question, you cannot handle driving among other people in a car, but a motorcycle? No. You are going to cause someone severe injury and it is amazing to me that nobody else picked up on this yet.

*woosh*

 

[CZroe]

Holy poop...

New Ninja. Inverted forks. Inline four. Certifiably a 250cc supersport.

 

[rstrohkirch]

It don't see this selling well but props to them for making one.

 

[CZroe]

It don't see this selling well but props to them for making one.

It's going to sell like hotcakes anywhere that's limited to 250cc (namely, Indonesia). It'll be a must-have for anyone serious about racing in the class too.

Then, there are those countries where you are forced to ride 400cc or smaller while learning/starting, so many will get it as the fastest production bike in that class. I recall Canada had that sleeved-down 400cc version of the Ninja 650 some years back and I believe Australia had an even smaller limit. Insurance companies may have a say in this too.

For decades now I've seen many, many, many, people lament not getting an inline-four 250 when they were still available back in the late '80s/early '90s. They're collector's items now. I think you might have some interested for historical reasons.

The value really isn't there though so I know what you mean. It'll cost as much as a 600 supersport but it'll definitely appeal to a certain segment.

 

[DigDog]

You can't bother to title and compose your own topic message, can't construct grammar to write the body of your topic, then want us to give advice?

Okay, stay off public roads, you can't handle the most basic task of communication so without question, you cannot handle driving among other people in a car, but a motorcycle? No. You are going to cause someone severe injury and it is amazing to me that nobody else picked up on this yet.

are you trying to say i can't into grammar? XD

 

[DigDog]

you know that kawa is totally aimed at the economy track racing segment; it would be interesting to see how much hp people will be able to squeeze out of it when they rebuild the engine and let it rev to 20k.

i've been told a few days ago that my contract here is going to be extended - propably ad infinitum - so obviously i immediately thought i should have gone for a better bike. But, im not gonna do that - i want to see how much fun i can get out of the falco. Also STILL havent completed my last test yet, due to work, rain, and not having open slots at the test center.

.. i had forgotten how much stuff you need to buy just to own a bike;
allen keys
jumper cables
battery charger
ground anchor
boots
gloves
more gloves
jackets
everything leather
leather grease
kryptonite
chain lube
helmet
water repellant
synth cloths
cover sheet

and tax, insurance, parking, haven't even started pumping gas and my wallet already hurts. Maybe i can just stop eating to save money.

 

[rstrohkirch]

What racing are you referring to? For recreational racing and track days, I don't see anyone spending $10k on a 250cc bike when you get a well sorted track/race bike for $5k to $7k used. For professional/amateur racing I don't recall really any classes this bike fits in. Moto3 is single cylinder. Nearly all of WERA classes limit you to twins or singles. Only one class that I see and that is Clubman. Even Honda's new CBR250RR which is definitely intended to make it to a track is a twin...because it actually fits in various classes.

In regards to horsepower, you should see 55hp to 60hp out of this with some mods. You could get around 50-55hp out of a 30 year old MC22. So I think 55 to 60 is a good guess for something modern.

 

[Ackmed]

Got heated gloves for the first time in my life, wondering why I never did this before. So much better when in the 40's and even in the upper 30's. Going to try and ride as long as I can.

Speaking of things you have to buy with a bike, I think I will get a stand on wheels this year. So I can move it around easier, and keep weight off of the tires.

 

[rstrohkirch]

Around here, when it gets that cold it's usually accompanied by some kind of precipitation multiple days of the week. In regards to the stand are you referring to a proper center lift stand or a combo swingarm/fork stand?

 

[DigDog]

What racing are you referring to?

ah, i was totally talking out of my ass - i do not actually follow racing enough to know what classes are there. I guess you could say i made an educated guess? Why else would there be a 4-inline of that size? The idea of having such small cylinders is that they will rev really high, which isn't something you want if you are aiming at the hp-restricted market. So obviously i thought of this being used as a cheapo racing bike for the lower categories.

 

[CZroe]

It's a response to Honda's CBR250RR twin that has a bit of supersport flair, like upside-down forks. Me thinks Honda may have plans for an i4, or maybe they trolled Kawasaki into it. It's possible that Kawi's went into development while Honda was signaling the CBR250RR a few years ago, since the '90s CBR250RR was an inline four-cylinder supersport.

 

[DigDog]

i was just thinking the other day about what "a beginner's bike" means.
Today it's just anything limited to whatever-horsepower-your-country-does, but in the days everybody would recommend "you get a beginners bike to start".
But then i look at beginners bikes and i see: bad suspensions, frame that shakes, engine that has 90% of the power in 10% of the powerband, ultralight bike that catches wind when a truck passes by, and im thinking, are we meant to learn with the bad before i go with the good? Because to me a beginners bike is a CBR600.
A proper full-blown bike that is easy to drive, everything works as intended, you don't need to "know your bike" just to stay alive. Plus, you can shift without using the clutch, you can enter a bend in the wrong gear, it's got big wheels to make it more stable, and, you know, ALL that stuff.

Now, using that same concept, it wouldn't be bad if we had a bike that had all the advantages of a proper race bike, but, with a beginner's engine size.
Obviously it would cost too much for most people, but if you can afford it, say, a rich dad who bikes, and he buys it for his son.