Do you have extreme sympathies for Sega?

Anarchist420

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Feb 13, 2010
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I sure as fuc* do and they include but are not limited to the following:

1. Lower royalty fees than the competition.
2. less censorship than the competition.
3. kinder to third parties than Nintendo and Sony were, at least before Bernie Stolar switched sides.
4. the fact that so many people think the Genesis and Saturn were technologically inferior to their competitors even though they weren't.
5. the fact that nearly every single modern console gaming feature had their origins on the Dreamcast.
6. the fact that Sega was always the first of a new generation.
7. the fact that they listened to everyone more than Nintendo did.
8. The fact that they made modern arcade games when Nintendo was still only making playing cards.
9. the fact that Nintendo only cares about making money and doing things their way... they even fired Gumpei Yokoi. Shigeru Miyamoto even said awhile back that he made things exclusively how he wanted to do.

Gunpei Yokoi may or may not have made a mistake with the VBoy, but he was responsible for their success in the handheld sector and the creator of Metroid.
10. The fact that Nintendo lied about why they stayed with carts for the N64.
11. The fact that Nintendo stayed with carts for a selfish reason.
12. The fact that the Saturn typically had short load times.
13. The fact that Sega could've said that a Genesis 32X CD was 128 bit but didn't.
14. The fact that Sega could've said the Genesis was 32 bit. Instead, they were so humble they put "16 BIT" on the genesis.
15. The fact that they could've called the 32X the 64X.
16. The fact that they turned id Software down in 1991.
17. It's not like Nintendo couldn't make their games for the PC and make them better than they are on their own above-market priced piece of shi* hardware... if that's what Sega does, then surely it should be good enough for Nintendo.

I'm sure that they don't give a flyin' f*** what I think, and their main benefactor wanted to get out of the hardware market anyway, but I want this thread to list everyone's extreme sympathies for Sega.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Meh...they made their mistakes. I miss some of their games but I don't have any sympathies to be honest.
 

mmntech

Lifer
Sep 20, 2007
17,501
12
0
Sega's mistakes were management related for the most part. A lot of it being the left hand not knowing what the right was doing.

The trouble I think really started with the Sega CD and 32X. They were obsessed with topping Nintendo and released two expensive and poorly supported peripherals for the Genesis. The 32X was especially pointless as it was released the same year as the Saturn.

Yes, then there was the Saturn. Rushed to market. So rushed, game retailers and consumers were caught off guard by the launch. Sega themselves were caught of guard by the PlayStation. As such too few Saturns were available, and no third-party titles were ready. I didn't know anybody who owned one. Based on what I've seen, the graphics weren't even as good as the PS1 or N64. It was also hard to program for due to it's weird dual CPU configuration.

The Dreamcast failed mostly due to piracy and the Sony juggernaut. Despite some notable games, I think that Sega did have a pretty weak library for both the Saturn and Dreamcast. No real killer apps.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
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The Genesis functionally was a 16-bit console though. It was named accurately. The N64, although technically capable of 64-bit, was actually a 32-bit console in practice. Lots of marketing weirdness out there.

Anyway, I liked Sega. My largest retro collection is Genesis stuff. A ton of awesome games, and they're hugely less expensive to collect CIB vs. the SNES stuff.

The SNES was definitely more capable in many ways compared to Genesis, though it was hobbled by a super slow processor. In many ways it's a lot like many console gens where things just aren't so simple. One console is better and worse in multiple ways vs. the competitors hardware-wise.

And of course the icing is that a great game on a weaker console is ALWAYS better than a crap game on the more powerful consoles of the era (or any era). Give me Castlevania Bloodlines or MUSHA or River City Ransom or almost any classic title over some regurgitated pile of crap that's so common on PS3/360.
 

dmoney1980

Platinum Member
Jan 17, 2008
2,471
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I worked for a ma n pa video game shop during the Saturn / Dreamcast era. I can tell you that the majority of our business for Saturn games came via imports. We sold the Action Replay cartridge for the Saturn, and people were eating up all of those Capcom and SNK arcade fighters. It really offered an "arcade perfect" experience. I still remember rocking Xmen vs Street Fighter at home. The problem for Sega here was their lack of support from 3rd party devs, as Sony had everybody in their pocket.

The DC console itself was impressive, but it was rushed to the market and it didn't have the same hype as the N64 or PS2. Plus, they made the mistake of making the DC white, in an era where everyone was digging black consoles. That said, I'll always remember the time spent playing Soul Calibur, Shenmue, RE:Veronica, and Jet Set Radio
 
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zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
Sega's mistakes were management related for the most part. A lot of it being the left hand not knowing what the right was doing.

The trouble I think really started with the Sega CD and 32X. They were obsessed with topping Nintendo and released two expensive and poorly supported peripherals for the Genesis. The 32X was especially pointless as it was released the same year as the Saturn.

Yes, then there was the Saturn. Rushed to market. So rushed, game retailers and consumers were caught off guard by the launch. Sega themselves were caught of guard by the PlayStation. As such too few Saturns were available, and no third-party titles were ready. I didn't know anybody who owned one. Based on what I've seen, the graphics weren't even as good as the PS1 or N64. It was also hard to program for due to it's weird dual CPU configuration.

The Dreamcast failed mostly due to piracy and the Sony juggernaut. Despite some notable games, I think that Sega did have a pretty weak library for both the Saturn and Dreamcast. No real killer apps.

No killer apps for Dreamcast??? There's a reason why so many Dreamcast games were later ported to other consoles, because it had so many damn awesome exclusive games.
 

Sulaco

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2003
3,825
44
91
I've always liked Sega.

I think having "extreme sympathies" for any corporation is a bit silly and childish past the age of 12, when you have intense school yard devotion and arguments about whose console is the best, because that's what your parents got you for Christmas that year.

I got a Genesis a year before an SNES, picked up a Sega CD on the cheap a year or two later, worked my ass off mowing lawns for a Saturn (with Virtua Fighter!), got a Dreamcast at launch, hell even have a Game Gear.
Still have them all, all with their original packaging.

That being said, they were always edgy, memorable, and well ahead of their time. They foresaw the future of multiplayer gaming with the Netlink and Dreamcast when Nintendo and Sony were poo-pooing it. Sure, the tech wasn't quite there yet, but their persistence was appreciated by the fans at the time.

Many of their exclusive titles lacked the "mainstream" appeal of the time, but in retrospect, after the dust has settled, were actually superior games for people who actually enjoy the hobby.
 

Anarchist420

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Feb 13, 2010
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Many of their exclusive titles lacked the "mainstream" appeal of the time, but in retrospect, after the dust has settled, were actually superior games for people who actually enjoy the hobby.
Perhaps that's why they've always had a special place in my heart. I didn't like Super Mario 64 that much (I liked Nights into Dreams a lot better) and I don't see what was so great about the former.

Sega's games tended have more ingenuity than those from Nintendo.
 

mmntech

Lifer
Sep 20, 2007
17,501
12
0
No killer apps for Dreamcast??? There's a reason why so many Dreamcast games were later ported to other consoles, because it had so many damn awesome exclusive games.

They apparently weren't good enough to get people to buy them when they were new though.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
I miss the 16 wars so bad.

I had both a SNES and Sega CD.

Square and Working Designs FTFW
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
They apparently weren't good enough to get people to buy them when they were new though.

No because you could burn a copy and make a boot disk and later embed the boot file in the copy so you don't need the boot disk. Nobody bought games anymore after a while. When I say nobody I don't mean that literally but piracy was easy and rampant. Of course it was on the PSOne and PS2 also but they required different methods. I don't condone any of this, but it didn't help the Dreamcast when it was hurting to begin with.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
I think piracy is somewhat overstated.

Bad management decisions is what screwed Sega over. Spa and son having no communication really hurt things. The 32x was never really supported by soj, whereas soa went on a blitz with it, thus ultimately screwing over anyone who bought one. Saturn design was changed at the last minute to fight off the PSX 3d design, when it was really designed to be an incredibly powerful 2D console, and Sega invested too much money in Carson areas of the Dreamcast that simply wasn't ready for its time.. We needed more sports more crazy taxi more piwer stone and less space channel 5 samba fee amigo and broadband adapter. Sega was trying to survive, so it should have had a different focus.
 

Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
12,181
35
91
I sure as fuc* do and they include but are not limited to the following:

1. Lower royalty fees than the competition.
2. less censorship than the competition.
3. kinder to third parties than Nintendo and Sony were, at least before Bernie Stolar switched sides.
4. the fact that so many people think the Genesis and Saturn were technologically inferior to their competitors even though they weren't.
5. the fact that nearly every single modern console gaming feature had their origins on the Dreamcast.
6. the fact that Sega was always the first of a new generation.
7. the fact that they listened to everyone more than Nintendo did.
8. The fact that they made modern arcade games when Nintendo was still only making playing cards.
9. the fact that Nintendo only cares about making money and doing things their way... they even fired Gumpei Yokoi. Shigeru Miyamoto even said awhile back that he made things exclusively how he wanted to do.

Gunpei Yokoi may or may not have made a mistake with the VBoy, but he was responsible for their success in the handheld sector and the creator of Metroid.
10. The fact that Nintendo lied about why they stayed with carts for the N64.
11. The fact that Nintendo stayed with carts for a selfish reason.
12. The fact that the Saturn typically had short load times.
13. The fact that Sega could've said that a Genesis 32X CD was 128 bit but didn't.
14. The fact that Sega could've said the Genesis was 32 bit. Instead, they were so humble they put "16 BIT" on the genesis.
15. The fact that they could've called the 32X the 64X.
16. The fact that they turned id Software down in 1991.
17. It's not like Nintendo couldn't make their games for the PC and make them better than they are on their own above-market priced piece of shi* hardware... if that's what Sega does, then surely it should be good enough for Nintendo.

I'm sure that they don't give a flyin' f*** what I think, and their main benefactor wanted to get out of the hardware market anyway, but I want this thread to list everyone's extreme sympathies for Sega.

So, a bunch of hipstery reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of their products and half of them have not thing to do with Sega at all.
 

Broburger

Senior member
May 30, 2010
318
1
91
I think piracy is somewhat overstated.

Bad management decisions is what screwed Sega over. Spa and son having no communication really hurt things. The 32x was never really supported by soj, whereas soa went on a blitz with it, thus ultimately screwing over anyone who bought one. Saturn design was changed at the last minute to fight off the PSX 3d design, when it was really designed to be an incredibly powerful 2D console, and Sega invested too much money in Carson areas of the Dreamcast that simply wasn't ready for its time.. We needed more sports more crazy taxi more piwer stone and less space channel 5 samba fee amigo and broadband adapter. Sega was trying to survive, so it should have had a different focus.
:thumbsup:

Yu Suzuki and Yuji Naka are awesome and they made some of the best games ever, but I have no sympathy for Sega.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
:thumbsup:

Yu Suzuki and Yuji Naka are awesome and they made some of the best games ever, but I have no sympathy for Sega.

Thank god you understood what I wrote; I had no clue that typing on a phone creates that many mistakes!

I remember I read a ridiculously long article back around ~2003 about the history of SEGA that went into an insane level of detail. Far far more than the crap we have written today, and it was clearly written with knowledge on the inside - it might have been at AssemblerGames...I don't quite remember anymore where it was, but it was and probably still is one of the most comprehensive and eye opening look at at the innards of SEGA and what was going on.

The SoA and SoJ discontinuity was deep and it pretty much tainted almost every single project that the company embarked on. Crap like Lawsuits with 3Dfx (bleeding more money at the worst possible moment) because SoJ quietly decided to go with a PowerVR design simply wouldn't have happened if they had more open communication.

But yes I agree - Yu And Yuji are geniuses.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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Bad management decisions is what screwed Sega over.
True, but then for a long time the people NoA "couldn't take a shit" without permission from NoJ.
The 32x was never really supported by soj, whereas soa went on a blitz with it, thus ultimately screwing over anyone who bought one.
100% true and that was ultimately ruined any chances for the Saturn to succeed in America. Tom Kalinske loved the 32X but then he hated the Saturn. If it weren't for the 32X not only would they have not lost trust, they also could've poured those resources into American software development for the Saturn.
 

futurefields

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2012
6,470
32
91
800px-Sega-Genesis-Model-2-Monster-Bare.jpg


Lol. What a freak. There was something exciting about these days though. I'm glad my parents refused to buy either of the attachments.
 

N-A-N-0

Member
Sep 1, 2013
26
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I sure as fuc* do and they include but are not limited to the following:

1. Lower royalty fees than the competition.
2. less censorship than the competition.
3. kinder to third parties than Nintendo and Sony were, at least before Bernie Stolar switched sides.
4. the fact that so many people think the Genesis and Saturn were technologically inferior to their competitors even though they weren't.
5. the fact that nearly every single modern console gaming feature had their origins on the Dreamcast.
6. the fact that Sega was always the first of a new generation.
7. the fact that they listened to everyone more than Nintendo did.
8. The fact that they made modern arcade games when Nintendo was still only making playing cards.
9. the fact that Nintendo only cares about making money and doing things their way... they even fired Gumpei Yokoi. Shigeru Miyamoto even said awhile back that he made things exclusively how he wanted to do.

Gunpei Yokoi may or may not have made a mistake with the VBoy, but he was responsible for their success in the handheld sector and the creator of Metroid.
10. The fact that Nintendo lied about why they stayed with carts for the N64.
11. The fact that Nintendo stayed with carts for a selfish reason.
12. The fact that the Saturn typically had short load times.
13. The fact that Sega could've said that a Genesis 32X CD was 128 bit but didn't.
14. The fact that Sega could've said the Genesis was 32 bit. Instead, they were so humble they put "16 BIT" on the genesis.
15. The fact that they could've called the 32X the 64X.
16. The fact that they turned id Software down in 1991.
17. It's not like Nintendo couldn't make their games for the PC and make them better than they are on their own above-market priced piece of shi* hardware... if that's what Sega does, then surely it should be good enough for Nintendo.

I'm sure that they don't give a flyin' f*** what I think, and their main benefactor wanted to get out of the hardware market anyway, but I want this thread to list everyone's extreme sympathies for Sega.

1. Source?

2. Briefly...then Mortal Kombat II SNES... then Sony...

3. False, remember sudden North American Saturn launch

4. False

5. Don't even know where to begin...Online gaming was around before, especially in Japn. Built-in online though, yes, that's not "nearly every."

6. Master System...Game Gear...

7. Dubious...

9. Dubious...

10. Dubious...

11. Carts have a lower profit margin that discs... Preventing piracy is not a selfish reason.

12. False.

13. False...

14. That'd be dumb like the Jaguar and Sega would have been torn to pieces by the more powerful SNES in Nintendo Power.

15. See 14

16. Missed opportunity.

17. Sega Saturn was the most expensive virtually the entire generation and the least powerful system of the 5th generation.... N64 and PS1 could afford to be much cheaper and their boards were easily consolidated (and N64 was simple from the start thanks to no moving parts.)


LOL
 

N-A-N-0

Member
Sep 1, 2013
26
0
0
The Genesis functionally was a 16-bit console though. It was named accurately. The N64, although technically capable of 64-bit, was actually a 32-bit console in practice. Lots of marketing weirdness out there.

Anyway, I liked Sega. My largest retro collection is Genesis stuff. A ton of awesome games, and they're hugely less expensive to collect CIB vs. the SNES stuff.

The SNES was definitely more capable in many ways compared to Genesis, though it was hobbled by a super slow processor. In many ways it's a lot like many console gens where things just aren't so simple. One console is better and worse in multiple ways vs. the competitors hardware-wise.

And of course the icing is that a great game on a weaker console is ALWAYS better than a crap game on the more powerful consoles of the era (or any era). Give me Castlevania Bloodlines or MUSHA or River City Ransom or almost any classic title over some regurgitated pile of crap that's so common on PS3/360.

Perfect Dark and Conker's Bad Fur Day used 64-bit operations I think, would explain load times going through the 32-bit bus, difficult emulation, and the astounding graphics for the time. I mean, you could even play Perfect Dark at 640 x 480 (and native 16:9, not stretched) if you went to settings, the same res as Dreamcast, Gamecube, and Wii, not to mention virtually all PS2 and original Xbox titles (a few on both systems had 720p and 1080i support via component, although PS2 was weaker than Gamecube.)
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
"64 bit operations" had nothing too do with it.

Rare wrote custom RSP microcode instead of using the conservative SGI code included in the Nintendo SDK.

This allowed, among other things, enough performance gain to use higher polygon tessellation to use a higher number of smaller textures instead of fewer larger textures stretched to hell and back to get around the N64s horrendous 2k (with mip maps) active texture cache.
 
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Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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16. Missed opportunity.
I meant to say that Nintendo turned id Software down.

17. Sega Saturn was the most expensive virtually the entire generation and the least powerful system of the 5th generation.... N64 and PS1 could afford to be much cheaper and their boards were easily consolidated (and N64 was simple from the start thanks to no moving parts.)
It was the most expensive, but it was as powerful as the PS1.
13. False...
It's not false, because they could've said the Motorola 68ks in the Sega CD and Genesis added up to 64 bit and that the Hitachi SH2s in the 32X were another 64 bits.

11. Carts have a lower profit margin that discs... Preventing piracy is not a selfish reason.
Nintendo must not have known that at the time, because they went with carts because of piracy.

2. Briefly...then Mortal Kombat II SNES... then Sony...
Overall less censorship than Nintendo no matter how brief it was.
3. False, remember sudden North American Saturn launch
That wasn't being unfriendly in the ways Nintendo was.
The Super NES wasn't more powerful than the Genesis and the PS1 was not more powerful than the saturn. That's made obvious by Burning Rangers, Panzer Dragoon Saga, and several 2D games.
 

N-A-N-0

Member
Sep 1, 2013
26
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0
I meant to say that Nintendo turned id Software down.

It was the most expensive, but it was as powerful as the PS1.

It's not false, because they could've said the Motorola 68ks in the Sega CD and Genesis added up to 64 bit and that the Hitachi SH2s in the 32X were another 64 bits.

Nintendo must not have known that at the time, because they went with carts because of piracy.

Overall less censorship than Nintendo no matter how brief it was.
That wasn't being unfriendly in the ways Nintendo was.
The Super NES wasn't more powerful than the Genesis and the PS1 was not more powerful than the saturn. That's made obvious by Burning Rangers, Panzer Dragoon Saga, and several 2D games.

No, it was so gimped they had to put a second CPU and GPU in it and it still produced less powerful 3D graphics. Shenmue's tech demo is the closest you can say it can match Playstation and it was well behind the N64. Saturn was the best 2D machine that gen though.

Nobody ever added like that in gaming except Atari, though Sega was close with "blast processing." The SNES' bottleneck was its weak CPU, but it was still a more powerful console in every way, especially sound. The Genesis couldn't compete anywhere and wasn't even stereo.

Nintendo would have known in 1996 that CD's are much cheaper to make than carts. :rolleyes: Obviously piracy was the reason, that's not selfishness, piracy was rampant on PS1 and would have been on Saturn too if anybody owned it...

The Super NES wasn't more powerful than the Genesis and the PS1 was not more powerful than the saturn. That's made obvious by Burning Rangers, Panzer Dragoon Saga, and several 2D games.

No, the SNES really was more powerful than the Genesis, beyond dispute, better in every way except CPU clock.

Panzer Dragoon Saga does not look better than Final Fantasy XI, or VIII for that matter, it barely looks better than the earlier VII! Doesn't look that impressive.

It was good at 2D games though, but so was the Playstation, and many of them didn't come stateside anyway.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Originally the Playstation was destined to be an add-on for the SNES. Nintendo thought it was too pricey and that load times were too long. Basically that CD technology wasn't far enough along to be viable for customers. Boy were they wrong.