Do you feel sorry for Native Americans?

[Greenman]

They literally got fucked in the ass when this land got invaded.

Back when it happened, sure. Ever since then, not so much.
The point being that no one who was on either side of that deal is alive today. It's history. I'd also note that the culture appears to have been stagnant. I said "appears" because my knowledge of the American Indian tribes is limited. I based that thought on the biases of them being not much further advanced than hunter gatherers. I could very well be wrong.

 

[IronWing]

What land?

Did the OP stutter? This land. You know, this land? The land that isn't that land or that other land, and certainly not the land over there.

 

[Dirigible]

Confining my discussion to currently-living people, no. I don't feel sorry for Native Americans.

If I were in a mood to feel sorry for some people, I'd probably choose the North Koreans, or people in some of the African shitholes. Native Americans have it great in comparison.

 

[zinfamous]

That is some seriously stupid shit. I have lost respect for Merriam Webster dictionary. How can a word have two competing definitions?

dictionaries are records of word use, though. Not so much a manual for what words explicitly mean. It's easy to confuse those two, however.

But yes, I think it is still stupid. In certain cases, general usage for words is sujugated by the throngs of imbeciles: irregardless is now "a word," even though the actual word, "regardless," already exists and has the exact same use.

"Literally," quite literally, no longer means, "literally." :hmm:

As for OPs question, yes.

But I am a firm believer in picking yourself up. I am a believer in providing opportunities for success for those that are less privileged, but I am not a believer in simply handing success over in any way.

Pretty much. The problem with applying that belief to the case of the general Native American territory is that you can't ignore the fact that they were overtly subjugated and forced into generations of poverty, with little recompense and opportunity to escape that.

And, is as you say.

I think only a soulless muffinhead would not feel sympathy for that plight.

 

[pete6032]

No, they are not currently oppressed and can make their lives to be whatever they strive to be.

They may not be oppressed, but if you trace back some of the biggest problems that native americans deal with today, they can be tied to how our government has treated them in the past.

Chronic widespread sexual physical abuse of Native Americans who were taken from their family and put in "Christian" American Indian Boarding schools and forbidden to celebrate their heritage or speak their native language. This has led to the drinking and abuse problems we see in the native american community today.

After the US govt corralled them into reservations, Native American diets changed drastically and became dependent on government rations of cheese, lard, fatty meats, and powdered milk, leading entire generations to contract type 2 diabetes and unable to pass along their traditional cooking knowledge to their children.

 

[mmntech]

Well, I don't feel any guilt for what happened to them since my family only immigrated to Canada in the 1950s.

Somewhat, but it looks like governments in Canada and US are trying to right some of the wrongs.

On the other hand, something is definitely wrong because Native Americans hold some of the worst youth delinquency stats in the Canada. Certain reservations are always having emergencies. Lot of natives are living in poverty on and off the reserves. Major, effed up, complicated issue that isn't being taken care of properly.

The problem is the government keeps them in a state of being wards of the state instead of allowing them full self government and giving reserves the same rights to govern as provinces and territories. The fact that individual natives living on reserves cannot own property is just mind blowing.

There are a lot of cultural problems too. I've spent some time around them shooting lacrosse. Most of the guys on the teams are really nice dudes but they have a hair trigger temper. I honestly don't know what they expect or want from us. It's unreasonable to ask the entire non-native population of Canada to leave. They don't seem to have any sort of unified demands, and they often resort to violence rather than actually sitting down to discuss things civilly. Not to mention the sheer amount of corruption within reserve leadership.

I think there's this general unwillingness to get their own shit together. There's also a unwillingness to listen to outsiders as well. Which is probably why the feds can't be bothered doing a missing women's inquiry. Everybody already knows the answers even if they don't want to say it. It's an exercise in frustration, which is why nothing ever seems to change for the better.

 

[blankslate]

Native Americans alive today are almost certainly far better off than their ancestors 100s of years ago.

Yep because no one is actively using giving them small pox laden items today as was happening 100 years ago.

Also unless some Vegas billionaires get their way Native Tribes can still run casinos on their land if they wish, so there is that.

Speaking about the situation in the U.S. not Canada.


....

 

[squarecut1]

Native Americans alive today are almost certainly far better off than their ancestors 100s of years ago.

What kind of nonsense is this?

 

[BoberFett]

I knew a guy who's mother was a tribe elder, one of the casino owning tribes here in MN. He had so much money he threw it around like nothing. Strip clubs constantly. Didn't work for a living, just raced high powered go karts for fun. He's one of the lottery winners.

My brother-in-law (sister's husband) is half native, had a pretty normal childhood, he's just a regular guy.

The poor natives living on the res? I feel as bad for them as I do poor people living in the hood. Frankly I think most of them should move, they'd have a lot better opportunities. Living on the res is a dead end.

 

[Leyawiin]

a team called the Ohio Afros or some shit, with the logo being a headshot of a black dude with a fro and a haircomb in it.

That would be the most bad-assed team ever.

 

[ultimatebob]

No, but I usually feel sorry for myself when I leave the local Indian casino

 

[Babbles]

One the one hand, sure I do feel kinda bad. However, on the other hand that has been the natural cycle of cultures since the dawn of mankind. Tons of other societies have came and gone. I think this is a relatively recent event so as it is more established in the social consciousness, but it was nothing new.

 

[Fern]

Do you feel sorry for Native Americans?

Sure, just like for everybody else that was kicked off their land etc.

I'm of Scottish decent and by some accounts the Scottish had the most people kicked off their land. See the Highland Clearances: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

Otherwise here's a list of diaspoas. The Native American are in good company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diasporas#S

--------------------

If we're talking about conditions today it's a mixed bag. Over here where I live the Cherokee are in a damned nice place. Beautiful mountains and creeks/rivers and waterfalls. Plenty of fishing and game. Tourists blowing money on their casinos and other tourist activities.

I lived in Miami and knew some Seminole indians living on the reservation in the Everglades. Again, nice place and they seemed pretty happy doing what they liked to do (hunting and fishing etc.). I believe since then they've been able to open up casinos so they probably have more money too.

OTOH, I've been to some reservations where they looked miserable. It was somewhere in the NW. Oklahoma maybe. Crappy barren land and unhappy looking people.

Fern

 

[Red Squirrel]

I feel sorry for the natives here in Canada, particularly the ones in Attawapiskat. Despite our government giving them free houses and tons of money, it's just not enough, they need more. They have reverted to tearing their houses apart to burn the wood for fuel so their kids can continue playing Xbox live on their 55" plasma TVs. It's such a shame, they need more money.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

The crime against native Americans wasn't attempted genocide, being made wards of the government or, routinely taken advantage of, it was the very real, very successful, eradication of their culture. A crime so horrendous that we refuse to consider it in order to solve our current problems in Afghanistan, Iran, Syria and other middle eastern countries.

 

[who?]

Native Americans alive today are almost certainly far better off than their ancestors 100s of years ago.

This is like the article in Newsweek that said that todays blacks are better off than their ancestors. You don't compare them to their ancestors, you compare them to the most privileged race in todays society, whoever that is.

 

[Fern]

The crime against native Americans wasn't attempted genocide, being made wards of the government or, routinely taken advantage of, it was the very real, very successful, eradication of their culture. A crime so horrendous that we refuse to consider it in order to solve our current problems in Afghanistan, Iran, Syria and other middle eastern countries.

Do you know any native americans?

Sure, hunting buffalo is gone but that was only plains indians anyway. Others still live like they did, assuming they want to. It's their choice to buy a new pickup with their casino check or just walk/run everywhere like in the 'good old days'.

The ones who were relocated to crappy land got screwed, but there are some living in reservations on nice, traditional land. As I said before, it's a mixed bag.

Fern

 

[Fern]

This is like the article in Newsweek that said that todays blacks are better off than their ancestors. You don't compare them to their ancestors, you compare them to the most privileged race in todays society, whoever that is.

Arabs in rich oil states?

Fern

 

[darkswordsman17]

The crime against native Americans wasn't attempted genocide, being made wards of the government or, routinely taken advantage of, it was the very real, very successful, eradication of their culture. A crime so horrendous that we refuse to consider it in order to solve our current problems in Afghanistan, Iran, Syria and other middle eastern countries.

What do you think the point of genocide was? Not sure why you'd dismiss that since they're tied hand in hand.

Do you know any native americans?

Sure, hunting buffalo is gone but that was only plains indians anyway. Others still live like they did, assuming they want to. It's their choice to buy a new pickup with their casino check or just walk/run everywhere like in the 'good old days'.

The ones who were relocated to crappy land got screwed, but there are some living in reservations on nice, traditional land. As I said before, it's a mixed bag.

Fern

Do you? The ones I'm aware of are constantly having issues with the government and average people keep "yeah I feel sooo bad for them bilking people out of money from their casinos" attitudes towards them and dismiss them because they're fucking idiots that don't know about them or what's actually happened to them.

Not to mention the horrible education our schools do about what was actually done to them. It was full on Hitler level shit, but because it was America people get misinformation, it was just a "sad but necessary" era in American history.

Maybe there are ones that are able to live however they want in peaceful seclusion, but I'm personally not aware of any.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I knew a guy who's mother was a tribe elder, one of the casino owning tribes here in MN. He had so much money he threw it around like nothing. Strip clubs constantly. Didn't work for a living, just raced high powered go karts for fun. He's one of the lottery winners.

My brother-in-law (sister's husband) is half native, had a pretty normal childhood, he's just a regular guy.

The poor natives living on the res? I feel as bad for them as I do poor people living in the hood. Frankly I think most of them should move, they'd have a lot better opportunities. Living on the res is a dead end.

Yep, because they can just afford to move wherever, they'll have no problems with prejudice at all and they'll be rolling in bank in no time! Because that's obviously all that matters is they just chase the American dream! They should just accept America and try to fit in! Wait, you mean they've been hearing that same shit for as long as white men have been interacting with them? I have no idea why they might take issue with that.

Well, I don't feel any guilt for what happened to them since my family only immigrated to Canada in the 1950s.



The problem is the government keeps them in a state of being wards of the state instead of allowing them full self government and giving reserves the same rights to govern as provinces and territories. The fact that individual natives living on reserves cannot own property is just mind blowing.

There are a lot of cultural problems too. I've spent some time around them shooting lacrosse. Most of the guys on the teams are really nice dudes but they have a hair trigger temper. I honestly don't know what they expect or want from us. It's unreasonable to ask the entire non-native population of Canada to leave. They don't seem to have any sort of unified demands, and they often resort to violence rather than actually sitting down to discuss things civilly. Not to mention the sheer amount of corruption within reserve leadership.

I think there's this general unwillingness to get their own shit together. There's also a unwillingness to listen to outsiders as well. Which is probably why the feds can't be bothered doing a missing women's inquiry. Everybody already knows the answers even if they don't want to say it. It's an exercise in frustration, which is why nothing ever seems to change for the better.

I'm sure you're self admitted inability to understand isn't at all part of the problem. Likewise, I'm sure you're "I don't feel guilt, I wasn't part of it" would completely change their feelings.

But yeah, they just need to listen to outside people, you know the ones that belittle them, dismiss them, force them to put up with shit, and then when they don't want to put up with it "its their own fault for not getting their shit together and just dealing with it".

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

What do you think the point of genocide was? Not sure why you'd dismiss that since they're tied hand in hand.



Do you? The ones I'm aware of are constantly having issues with the government and average people keep "yeah I feel sooo bad for them bilking people out of money from their casinos" attitudes towards them and dismiss them because they're fucking idiots that don't know about them or what's actually happened to them.

Not to mention the horrible education our schools do about what was actually done to them. It was full on Hitler level shit, but because it was America people get misinformation, it was just a "sad but necessary" era in American history.

Maybe there are ones that are able to live however they want in peaceful seclusion, but I'm personally not aware of any.

Genocide is honest if Machiavellian. Destroying someones culture is evil and nefarious. The difference is that genocide is quite difficult to accomplish and it foments long term violence and insurrection (think Ireland or, many African nations). Whereas destroying a peoples culture sets them adrift and makes them dependent on the state.

 

[Pocatello]

Yes it was wrong, now the US government should give all the land back to the natives.

 

[Imp]

I feel sorry for the natives here in Canada, particularly the ones in Attawapiskat. Despite our government giving them free houses and tons of money, it's just not enough, they need more. They have reverted to tearing their houses apart to burn the wood for fuel so their kids can continue playing Xbox live on their 55" plasma TVs. It's such a shame, they need more money.

I think Attawapiskat is one example of a group getting bad land. According to quick Googling, the land itself is actually rich in resources. But look at it on a map and there is nothing nearby. The land is beside Hudson's Bay. Closest big town is hundreds of kilometers away and I don't think they even have permanent year-round roads going up there -- fly-in only except in winter?

 

[Red Squirrel]

I think Attawapiskat is one example of a group getting bad land. According to quick Googling, the land itself is actually rich in resources. But look at it on a map and there is nothing nearby. The land is beside Hudson's Bay. Closest big town is hundreds of kilometers away and I don't think they even have permanent year-round roads going up there -- fly-in only except in winter?

That is true, and think it's prone to flooding too. We have some equipment in those areas, pretty much all the sites in the upper half of Ontario in that area is fly in only at least in terms of where are specific towers/buildings are. Really what needs to happen is the government needs to go there and see for themselves, and draw up a final solution (not the nazi kind) to fix their issues but after that they are on their own.

 

[jhu]

Well, my people were conquered by Ghenghis Khan, slaughtered by the Japanese, starved by famine, etc. They seem to be doing pretty well nowadays.