Do you believe in a god?

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CKent

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
9,020
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: CKent
Originally posted by: Amused
Because quite simply, it IS intellectually dishonest to make the claim that no god exists. Why? Because you cannot prove that.

You can say you doubt it all you want. But you cannot make a definitive claim either way.
I remember Vic making this claim nearly five years ago, before he grew up a little. It's surprising seeing you say it though. Reason being it's discriminatory toward atheists. They are the polar opposite of the religious, yet they're wrong for making their claim while there's nothing wrong with the religious making their own? How does that work? Because there are more religious people to argue with you if you claim they're equally wrong?

Why would you assume I said the theists were right?

I am only making the point that the positive atheists are no more correct than the theists.

Both stances are faith based.

In your words, "it is intellectually dishonest to make the claim that no god exists ... because you cannot prove that.". Thus either a) it's equally dishonest to claim god does exist, or b) you're discriminating against atheism simply by omitting that this is true of theism as well. I see b) a whole lot on AT. A lot of people here love to claim agnosticism and then berate atheists for their faith while they just happen to ignore their opposite, the theists. The only difference is the theists are far more numerous. Coincidence?
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
6
81
Originally posted by: Amused

It's not lazy, it's honest. You want to twist and turn something into something it's not. You want to influence others rather than admit the facts.

The fact is, it's unknowable and you don't know. Anything beyond that is a waste of time and energy and is usually an attempt to make it appear as though you do know.

See, how I see it, you are twisting something into something that it's not. It is lazy stopping at "I don't know" for this question. Stop trying to deny it is.

I was once like you. I moved on. Hopefully you will as well.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
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Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: So
So, No. You consider it intellectually dishonest to say that any claim that cannot be proven to be false to a logical point to be untrue. It does not matter how much investigation is done, nor how ludicrous said claim is, you feel that any such claim cannot be discounted. Am I correctly stating your position?

You can only make a claim as to how unlikely you think it is. Yes.

Okay, we've made another step. Now, do you think there is a point where something is so extremely unlikely that it is reasonable to behave as if it's false?

Yes. But not to logically claim that it is false.

Okay, now, let us consider what words mean. We need a useful definition of atheism and agnosticism to move forward.

1. Theism / Atheism - Deals with the existence of a god. If you are a theist, you fall on the side of "I think a god exists" and if you are an atheist you say "I do not think that a god exists"

2. Agnosticism / Gnosticism - Deals with the provability of a question. If you are gnostic, you'd say that you can prove it one way or the other, agnostic, that you can't.

Now you can be a theist agnostic (go to church, not sure), or an atheist gnostic (sure there is no god).

See this chart: http://scienceblogs.com/evolvi...ghts/atheist_chart.gif

Do you agree that this is a useful definition? Obviously it is not the subjective definition most people hold in mind, but we are working for a USEFUL definition that we can both use to come to an understanding.


An atheist agnostic would be what most people simply call an "agnostic". Someone who does not actively believe that a god exists but feels that the question has not been sufficiently investigated yet.

Finally we get to athiest gnostics. People who claim to "know" that there is no god. Now we are where we were before. You agreed that there is a point where a claim is so unlikely that the most rational choice is to behave as if you know that something is false. It is these people -- the ones who believe that the question of god has been thoroughly investigated and is so unlikely that they are better off simply believing the claim is untrue -- who make up 99% of the people who claim to "know" that there is no god.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
I've thus far restrained myself from injecting my thoughts into the currently prominent disagreement in this thread. At this point I would like to offer a few ideas in light of which I feel the discussion should be considered.

Belief and Knowledge - Knowledge is ordinarily defined as "true and justified belief" -- thus, all knowledge is belief, but not all belief is knowledge. Generally, belief is accepted to be "justified" (and therefore true) when that belief is accorded some real experience in reality. For example, I am justified in believing that I am typing on my laptop because I am currently interacting with it directly. I therefore know that I am typing on my laptop. Less commonly, beliefs are said to be justified by sound logical deduction. This kind of knowledge is more-or-less limited to abstractions such as mathematics.

Atheism and Agnosticism - The theist/atheist dichotomy deals with belief. The gnostic/agnostic dichotomy deals with knowledge, or whether or not the belief is true and justified. An agnostic theist will hold a belief that a god exists, but he will not believe that his belief is necessarily true and justified. It could be likened to a "guess" or "speculation." A gnostic atheist, in contrast, will hold a belief that exactly zero gods exist, and furthermore he will hold that this belief is true and justified.

Intellectual honesty - In my experience debating this topic (which is considerable), none of the four possible positions which result from the intersection of the aforementioned dichotomies is necessarily intellectually dishonest. It is conceivable (although not necessarily likely, or even arguably impossible) that a person has had personal experience which justifies his belief, even when his experience is totally non-reproduceable for other observers. Outside observers can legitimately doubt the validity of his claims about his experience, but that does not necessitate intellectual dishonesty on his part since it remains conceivable that he alone has had such experience.

Argumentation - It is intellectually dishonest to insist that someone else should be convinced of the truth of a person's belief without supplying an adequate demonstration that appropriately justifies that belief for the other person. In simpler terms, one must only shoulder a burden of proof if he hopes to be persuasive to another person. If he has made an argument which he intends to be persuasive and defends as his basis for his claim to have true and justified belief, but which can be shown to be fallacious, then the criteria for intellectual dishonesty are met.

It is my belief that the rare animal "gnostic atheist," is intellectually dishonest when he is trying to be persuasive. Due to the slippery nature of the term "god" there can be constructed a plethora of conceivable scenarios, the falsity of which could not possibly be confirmed by the experience of the gnostic atheist.

Mai too sense....
 

TridenT

Lifer
Sep 4, 2006
16,800
45
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Originally posted by: Leafy
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
BTW, the majority of scientists AND gays have some form of belief in a god or gods.


No, they don't. The correlation between level of training in science (as recognized by NIST) and belief in God is a negative one - the more training you have in science, the less likely you are to believe in God.

It's a basic tenet of critical thinking that something is assumed false until it is proven or demonstrated with evidence or reason otherwise. The opposite would be insane - we would believe everything until it was proven false. So since there's no evidence for God, and there is evidence against God, why would anyone believe at all?

Hey! I didn't say that, Amused did... You misquoted. :eek:
 
S

SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: So
Finally we get to athiest gnostics. People who claim to "know" that there is no god. Now we are where we were before. You agreed that there is a point where a claim is so unlikely that the most rational choice is to behave as if you know that something is false. It is these people -- the ones who believe that the question of god has been thoroughly investigated and is so unlikely that they are better off simply believing the claim is untrue -- who make up 99% of the people who claim to "know" that there is no god.

Certainty is like truth, in that it either exists or it doesn't in the context. "It is certain" carries much more weight than "I am certain" because it implies that the certainty is independent from the person making the judgement. In fact, it implies that there is no judgement being made at all, only a statement of fact. That makes the obvious idea that anytime someone says "It is certain", it's not possible for them to mean anything other than "I am certain" somewhat surprising. It is THEY who make the judgement however they word it. What difference does it make if YOU are certain? It is impossible for me to make the leap from "I am certain" to "It is certain" because in the end it's just me being certain or not certain, which has little to do with the objective certainty of the subject in question. This leads me to believe that actually discovering the objective certainty or "truth" of anything is not possible or at least meaningless to think about. We made up a word for something we can't experience. That's why I think that 100% (rather than 99%) of the people who claim to "know" whether or not there is a god are really just drawing the conclusion of extreme likelihood/unlikelihood in the same way I do, and choosing to label it as truth. Their error is not knowing what truth is, or more importantly, what it is not.
 

Leafy

Member
Mar 8, 2008
155
0
0
Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
Originally posted by: Leafy
Originally posted by: Amused
BTW, the majority of scientists AND gays have some form of belief in a god or gods.


No, they don't. The correlation between level of training in science (as recognized by NIST) and belief in God is a negative one - the more training you have in science, the less likely you are to believe in God.

It's a basic tenet of critical thinking that something is assumed false until it is proven or demonstrated with evidence or reason otherwise. The opposite would be insane - we would believe everything until it was proven false. So since there's no evidence for God, and there is evidence against God, why would anyone believe at all?

Hey! I didn't say that, Amused did... You misquoted. :eek:

Oops.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,445
19,893
146
Originally posted by: Leafy
Originally posted by: Amused
BTW, the majority of scientists AND gays have some form of belief in a god or gods.


No, they don't. The correlation between level of training in science (as recognized by NIST) and belief in God is a negative one - the more training you have in science, the less likely you are to believe in God.

It's a basic tenet of critical thinking that something is assumed false until it is proven or demonstrated with evidence or reason otherwise. The opposite would be insane - we would believe everything until it was proven false. So since there's no evidence for God, and there is evidence against God, why would anyone believe at all?

Fail

I even posted a link and you still got it wrong.