do teachers have a legitimate gripe about having to do work outside of school?

[nageov3t]

I come from a family of teachers... my mom and aunt are both teachers, my sister's a teacher, most of my parents' family friends are teachers, and my dad even started to go to school to become a teacher (but dropped out because, at the time, they couldn't really afford it and he never went back)

without fail, every single teacher I know bitches about all the work they have to do outside of the classroom. I've always rolled my eyes, and after making a comment about it when my friend's wife was crying about having to go back to school after spring break the other week, I got flamed pretty hard over it.

is it really a legitimate complaint, though? even with the hours spent at home grading papers, it seems like the average length of a work-year for a teacher is still substantially lower than someone in the private industry working 40-45 hours/week with, let's say, about a month of yearly vacation time.

(that's ignoring stuff like summer school, which is voluntary and provides income in addition to their teacher's salary... I'd think working summer school would be the equivalent of a corporate guy picking up a part-time job)

 

[SandEagle]

if you come from a family of teachers, you should already know the answer.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

They work much fewer hours per year than some other professions...but they get paid a lot less as well, and a lot of them don't get the professional respect that other people might in their careers.

 

[waggy]

My wife was a teacher. we have friends that are still teachers. The amount of work they do outside the home is a lot.

Is it a legitmate complaint? yes and no. they get paid well for only 9 months work (yes i know training and such in the summer) and have great benefits. But in all honesty if they didn't know that the hours were long BEFORE they took the job they are idiots.

 

[Crono]

Teachers do homework and get summer vacations. Its like being a student, but without the backpack.

I am loathe to quote TFP, but everyone knows this.

 

[waggy]

They work much fewer hours per year than some other professions...but they get paid a lot less as well, and a lot of them don't get the professional respect that other people might in their careers.

heh do you know a teacher?

I can say without a doubt the ones i know work more hours per day then most people i know. but..the summer is easy. so i guess it evens out.



edit: big part is IF the teacher is GOOD would make the difference here too. A family friend teachers. he is "on call" as he puts it nightly. his students have his email and phone number. its not uncommon for him to get a call for help. Then he also stays late helping kids after school or before.

He has said some teachers clock ends at the end of school. they don't take stuff home and don't give out any way to contact them.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Teachers here are paid based on a 1400 hour classroom work-year. Your typical work year is around 2000 hours. That's a 600 hour difference. Broken down, that's 16.67 hours/week (36 week school schedule) outside of the classroom or 3.33 hours/day to match up with a typical work year. My wife is a teacher (and her mom). My wife and her mom do spend at least that amount of time outside of the classroom doing stuff (preparing assignments, getting ahead/refreshed on material, grading assignments, writing IEPs, meeting with parents, etc.) each week. I'm sure that there are teachers that get to school a few minutes before the bell rings, leave within a few minutes of the final bell, and don't spend much/any time working at home. It's just like any other job - there are some who put in a lot of effort and deserve respect and increased pay, while there are some that just do enough to skate by.

 

[FoBoT]

lots of jobs/industries require more than 40 hours/wk for salaried employees including taking work home or coming in on weekends, at some frequency

 

[sactoking]

I, too, come from a family of teachers and they would be the first ones to tell you that most teachers are whiny crybabies and the complaint is not legit.

1) Teachers are paid a reasonable annual salary for 8-9 months of work. Many of them take summer jobs so they get paid very well.
2) Teachers usually only have to put in tons of extra hours when they first start out, when their other obligations tend to be minimal. Lesson planning and grading and whatnot can add an extra 20 hours per week to the job for a teacher in their first few years. If you've been doing it for 5-10 years or more and don't have most of that on cruise control, well, then you're an idiot.
3) Lots of teachers are just dumb. For example, in the district my mom taught in teachers were given a choice: have their annual salary paid out during the months they worked (and make more per paycheck) or have it paid out over the full 12 months (and make less per paycheck). Something like 75% of the teachers chose to take the 12-month pay schedule and the #1 reason cited for doing so was to ensure that they didn't go broke over the summer. Really? You're that incompetent with your money that you can't budget? Even those people who work a job during the summer?

While there are a lot of people who really care about kids and are wonderful teachers and deserve to be paid 2-3x what they actually make, the vast majority of teachers are worthless idiots who should be working at Arby's.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Teachers here are paid based on a 1400 hour classroom work-year. Your typical work year is around 2000 hours. That's a 600 hour difference. Broken down, that's 16.67 hours/week (36 week school schedule) outside of the classroom or 3.33 hours/day to match up with a typical work year. My wife is a teacher (and her mom). My wife and her mom do spend at least that amount of time outside of the classroom doing stuff (preparing assignments, getting ahead/refreshed on material, grading assignments, writing IEPs, meeting with parents, etc.) each week. I'm sure that there are teachers that get to school a few minutes before the bell rings, leave within a few minutes of the final bell, and don't spend much/any time working at home. It's just like any other job - there are some who put in a lot of effort and deserve respect and increased pay, while there are some that just do enough to skate by.

This. One example: Have 100+ papers to grade and provide feedback. Spend ten minutes per paper, do the math.

 

[waggy]

I, too, come from a family of teachers and they would be the first ones to tell you that most teachers are whiny crybabies and the complaint is not legit.


3) Lots of teachers are just dumb. For example, in the district my mom taught in teachers were given a choice: have their annual salary paid out during the months they worked (and make more per paycheck) or have it paid out over the full 12 months (and make less per paycheck). Something like 75% of the teachers chose to take the 12-month pay schedule and the #1 reason cited for doing so was to ensure that they didn't go broke over the summer. Really? You're that incompetent with your money that you can't budget? Even those people who work a job during the summer?

While there are a lot of people who really care about kids and are wonderful teachers and deserve to be paid 2-3x what they actually make, the vast majority of teachers are worthless idiots who should be working at Arby's.

i have issues with #3. It's not dumb to do at all. Why take it over 9 months? your budget is 12 months. why not have a consistent income all 12 months? any money made in the summer is nice and can be used for vacations (witch is what we did).

 

[Gunslinger08]

2) Teachers usually only have to put in tons of extra hours when they first start out, when their other obligations tend to be minimal. Lesson planning and grading and whatnot can add an extra 20 hours per week to the job for a teacher in their first few years. If you've been doing it for 5-10 years or more and don't have most of that on cruise control, well, then you're an idiot.

This is true for teachers that stay at one school/grade level, who teach subjects that don't change, who don't work with kids that have state mandated special education programs. However, if you fall into any of those categories (ex. special education teacher, SLP, ESL, get moved around schools a lot, advanced science teacher, etc.), you're going to be doing something different pretty much every year.

Even for your run of the mill subject teacher who sticks to the same material each year, you still have to do things like help/tutor slower students, grade assignments, meet with parents, attend department and administrative meetings, etc. You shouldn't be spending as much time creating lectures, handouts, worksheets, assignments, etc., but you're still going to be putting in more than a ~7 hour school day.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Absolutely no right to complain. Two of my best friends' mothers are teachers and I tell them all the time (Disclaimer: I represent school districts in labor and employment disputes).

Regardless, shitty ass LAUSD has a starting salary of a credentialed teacher is $46,000, plus $3000 for bi-lingual cerit, $584 for master, and $1,168 annually for PhD, plus 3k of valued health benefits AND 7.5% salary contribution to retirement.

So the MINIMUM a teacher is making is about 53k for 9 months (summer is extra $).

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

heh do you know a teacher?

I can say without a doubt the ones i know work more hours per day then most people i know. but..the summer is easy. so i guess it evens out.

They work much fewer hours per year than some other professions...but they get paid a lot less as well, and a lot of them don't get the professional respect that other people might in their careers.

But a 2000 hour work year is pretty good, considering. I probably won't ever work only 2000 hours a year for the rest of my life. Then again, I'm hoping doctors get paid more than teachers do when I graduate.

 

[sactoking]

i have issues with #3. It's not dumb to do at all. Why take it over 9 months? your budget is 12 months. why not have a consistent income all 12 months? any money made in the summer is nice and can be used for vacations (witch is what we did).

For a teacher making $48,000 you just gave your school district an interest free loan of $12,000 (before taxes) for 3 months. It's about as smart as ensuring you get a $3,000 tax refund.

But the main idiocy isn't that teachers responded "It's easier for me to manage in 12 payments than 9". They responded "I am completely incapable of budgeting my money and if paid $4,000 per month instead of $5,333 I would waste that extra $1,333 on hookers and blow, no doubt about it."

 

[Corporate Thug]

For a teacher making $48,000 you just gave your school district an interest free loan of $12,000 (before taxes) for 3 months. It's about as smart as ensuring you get a $3,000 tax refund.

But the main idiocy isn't that teachers responded "It's easier for me to manage in 12 payments than 9". They responded "I am completely incapable of budgeting my money and if paid $4,000 per month instead of $5,333 I would waste that extra $1,333 on hookers and blow, no doubt about it."

I never understood the budgeting argument either.

 

[darkxshade]

Don't hand out homework if you don't want to grade them.

 

[MotionMan]

You took up teaching because you thought it would be fun, you could have summer vacations off. Then you found out it was actually work and that really bummed you out.

MotionMan

 

[ichy]

I suspect that in reality the answer is that shitty teachers who put in minimal effort have a pretty cushy job, whereas good ones who put in more than the minimum spend a lot of time at their jobs. The problem with our system is that they reward seniority rather than achievement, so there's no rewards for good teachers and no penalties for shitty ones.

 

[DrPizza]

There have been studies - now that you're aware, someone else can go find them (if you don't believe me) - that show that the number of hours actually spent working for a teacher is very similar to the number of hours actually spent working for many many of these other professions.

Given that, and the level of education that is now required, the pay really isn't very competitive for many fields, particularly science and math teachers. Well, the level required in some states - it's different from state to state. In NY, to be math certified, you have to have majored in mathematics. Not majored in education with a handful of easy math courses. Likewise areas such as physics or chemistry.
At a glance, (not sure how much I trust these figures), average salary with a bachelors in mathematics after 10 years = 90k. Chemistry = 133k, Physics 123K
http://www.studentsreview.com/salary_by_major.php3
It's possible those figures are inflated a little bit. However, no 10 year teacher makes anywhere remotely close to those salaries. Yet, teachers of those subjects take identical courses in college (plus a minor in education.)

 

[Soccerman06]

I hate when teachers complain about money and workload. They get paid a very good amount of money for 7 hours of classroom work including 10 minute breaks every hour and a 40-50 minute lunch.

 

[waggy]

I suspect that in reality the answer is that shitty teachers who put in minimal effort have a pretty cushy job, whereas good ones who put in more than the minimum spend a lot of time at their jobs. The problem with our system is that they reward seniority rather than achievement, so there's no rewards for good teachers and no penalties for shitty ones.

/this

My wife got disgusted with the union. She was rather blind going into it. Watching bad teachers who leave after the bell and just bad teachers getting big raises bugged her. Also they would strike if they didn't get what they wan't. it was NEVER about the kids but protecting bad teachers and the union.

throw in teh bullshit she had to put up with from the parents? after 2 she was tired of the bullshit. she loves being with the kids but the other stuff was bad.

I hate when teachers complain about money and workload. They get paid a very good amount of money for 7 hours of classroom work including 10 minute breaks every hour and a 40-50 minute lunch.

again that depends on the teacher. The ones i know put in more work then anyone i know. bad ones? yeah they should be fired and replaced.

 

[trmiv]

My wife is a teacher and does a TON of work outside school hours. She hates taking work home when she can avoid it, so most of the time she stays until 5:30-6:00 when school ends at 3. But she usually spends most of that time calling parents, so she rarely gets grading done and has to bring it home. The school district here puts a lot of demands on teachers, and it seems to increase by the month. The amount of babysitting, checking and monitoring she has to do for students is absurd.

I hate when teachers complain about money and workload. They get paid a very good amount of money for 7 hours of classroom work including 10 minute breaks every hour and a 40-50 minute lunch.

A lot of schools require their teachers to remain on campus and be available during lunch, so their lunch is not their own. My wife is like that, she cannot leave campus and is required to have her classroom open to assist with students. She's usually got 7-8 students there every lunch asking for assistance on something. She finally is able to help them and them out and get 5-10 minutes to shovel some food down before the bell rings.

Also not sure where the 10 minute break every hour thing is from. At my wife's school there is 5 minutes between bells, and the classes are 1.5 hours long. The kids rush to class to avoid being late, so if she's lucky there's a minute or two without kids. Most of the time that's taken up by a kid or two asking questions after class.

 

[DrPizza]

For a teacher making $48,000 you just gave your school district an interest free loan of $12,000 (before taxes) for 3 months. It's about as smart as ensuring you get a $3,000 tax refund.

But the main idiocy isn't that teachers responded "It's easier for me to manage in 12 payments than 9". They responded "I am completely incapable of budgeting my money and if paid $4,000 per month instead of $5,333 I would waste that extra $1,333 on hookers and blow, no doubt about it."

I agree that it's better not to spread the payments out, but it's pretty ignorant to think that it really makes that much of a difference in the long run. First of all, it's not equivalent to making a $12,000 interest free loan. In most cases, schools would pay employees weekly or biweekly (biweekly being the norm) throughout the school year. If employees want it automatically budgeted for them, then the school makes a balloon payment with the last payment - thus, they get a large check just before the start of the summer. With biweekly pays, there are usually 21 pay weeks, give or take 1. The difference between 48k/21 and 48k/26 is $439.56. For 20 pay periods, you will take home less money, but on the 21st pay period, you'll receive the balloon check, along with the regular check. 20 times 439.56 is a little over $8791. At 1% interest, over those 9 1/2 months, you miss out on about $30.

 

[SagaLore]

I hate when teachers complain about money and workload. They get paid a very good amount of money for 7 hours of classroom work including 10 minute breaks every hour and a 40-50 minute lunch.

You're not considering the amount of stress it is to handle so many kids in a single day...

If you have worked in IT, perhaps doing some kind of helpdesk or phone support, look at how many anxious people you've had to talk to in a day. Let's say you average 1 person every 10 minutes. That is 6 an hour. In a 8 hour day, that is 48 people. Look at how miserable the average IT customer service person is.

If you've ever had kids, more than 1, look at how crazy they can be through various stages of growing up. Look at how different each of your kid's personalities, and the mental exhaustion of trying to keep up with it (well unless you have one of those families that was mostly raised by daycare, then its hard to relate).

If you've been to a university in a challenging degree, look at how much work you had to do outside of class. Even if lots of the homework and projects were simple, the actual challenge was the time management of it all. Its a lot to keep track of.

Now...


Take all 3 of those, and multiply them all by 3, and have them happen all at the same time.

I do NOT envy teachers.