Originally posted by: Millennium
Master Sammyson PLEASE tell me how Oxycodone or Hydrocodone is a stronger Analgesic than IV morphine... You can't really compare an IV drug to an oral one.
Dosage and conversion chart from Rutgers University
pwn3d!
I'm not bored enough to actually read that book but I'm sure it said some pretty smart stuff.
I'm not bored enough to actually read that book but I'm sure it said some pretty smart stuff.
You should read links that you post.
IV is used for instant pain/breathing problem relief.
Hydrocodone in no way is stronger than morphine.
If you read the link you posted and go to the chart on page 10, you will see that the dose for hydromorphone(dilaudid) is approx 90% less than IV morphine. You also see that Fentanyl is on that chart too.
It's very clear from this chart that oxycodone and morphine doses are the same for oral administration.
Also, if you can't compare IV and oral drugs, why does the link you posted do it?
I guess I wasn't clear enough...I'm not saying that Oxycodone or Vicodin is more effective than Morphine, far from it. I start with the lower drugs, then if those don't work I escalate to stronger medication. There have been a few times where my strongest meds (dilaudid and methadone now) haven't worked and I've had to go to the hospital. Now the few times I have been in the hospital I would get Morphine and that would work like a charm but that's not the case any more. The last two times I was in the hospital they tried to start me off with morphine and it just wasn't working so they moved me to dilaudid. Does that make any more sense now?
What does it matter anyway, apparently I'm a drug addict that is trying to hide my addiction on the drug test and I don't deserve this job right? I may as well sit at home and collect disability and welfare 'cause I don't deserve to be out there working. Heavin forbid I try to join the workforce with my health. I should be happy working 20 hours a week at a fast food joint and never aspire to be anything.
It's possible that she could do it to someone else in the future, but I'll never know that for certain. After her comments to me she starting working from home for some reason and never came into the office any more.
All I know is even though she was wrong in terminating my employment I still didn't feel right filing a lawsuit against the company because of 1 moron. The company and the people I liked, it was only my boss that I had a beef with so that's why I dropped the issue.
Originally posted by: SammySon
You should read links that you post.
IV is used for instant pain/breathing problem relief.
Hydrocodone in no way is stronger than morphine.
If you read the link you posted and go to the chart on page 10, you will see that the dose for hydromorphone(dilaudid) is approx 90% less than IV morphine. You also see that Fentanyl is on that chart too.
It's very clear from this chart that oxycodone and morphine doses are the same for oral administration.
Also, if you can't compare IV and oral drugs, why does the link you posted do it?
You evidently don't understand my postsI know that dilaudid is WAY more powerful that morphine. A much smaller IV dose is needed. That hasn't even been brought up. We are talking about an Oxycodone to IV morphine comparison which is almost worthless. 30MG of morphine sulfate is equivalent to 30MG Oxycodone. When it comes to IV dosage, the morphine is WAY stronger. Where did I ever say hydrocodone is stronger than morphine? I never said that. EVER! Please learn to read someone's posts. Finally, the whole debate was about oxycodone being compared to IV Morphine. Think about how many Percocets would be needed to equal one IV drip of morphine. Also think about the amount of APAP you will have in your system after that. The LD50 of APAP is 5-6 grams and you wouldn't be THAT close to it, but continual usage of high amounts of APAP is NOT good.
It makes total sense. That is why I asked you to clarify in the very beginning before this whole debate started. In that case, just have your prescriptions ready before you go take the test. They are not going to be testing for specific Opioids so just take your Percocet and Vicodin prescription. They others are probably not needed. If you can do the job as the employer wishes then your disability should not disqualify you.
Evan
There seems to be a lot of misconceptions flying around here. I don't claim to be an expert in any sense, but I have studied these subjects before. So I'll give a little bit of personal experience and than something a bit more technical:
Most employers give urine test, blood tests are too expensive and invasive and patches take too long and are expensive as well.
The amount of time that a drug takes to clear your system depends on two factors: 1. The rate at which your body processes the drug and 2. The quantities of drug that have been taken.
A urine test may be passed if the taker has "flushed" his system by drinking a lot of water resulting in a more dilute sample....though most centers are supposed to screen for this, many ignore it.
Marijuana: For the casual user, someone who only smokes lightly once every week or two, 3-4 days is usually fine. The daily user should wait at least a week.....both should drink plenty of fluids.
Percocet, oxycontin, vicodin, tylenol-4, heroin, opium, dilaudid....etc. are all members of members of the opiate family (synthetic or otherwise) and will show up as "opiate" on the urinalysis. For sustained and probably relatively high level use such as the one indicated you should wait at least a week, drinking plenty of water as before.....maybe a little longer.
All "speed" like drugs [this basically refers to amphetimines, methamphetamines, and cocaine] are out of your system in 72 hours.
When you take your p*ss test, the med tech will ask you if you are currently on any medications. If the ones you have listed are the only ones than they are all opiates......therefore, you only have produce legitimacy for one of these drugs to cover them all. (in case you don't wish to divulge dependancy on the heavier ones like morphine and dilaudid). They may ask why, but you only have to give a decent reason....they don't dig too deep. Now, if you DO choose to list the heavier ones...well let's just say that a "decent" reason for morphine is a different than a "decent" reason for vicodin.
Now for the technical that may doubt the above "groupings":
Percocet:
Active Ingredients: Acetaminophen 500mg(tylenol) and oxycodone 5mg(opiate derivative).
Oxycodone--> hydroxydihydrocodeinone or C18H21NO4 * HCl [for the chemically inclined)
Oxycontin, roxycontin, hydrocodone, percolone, vicoden, yada, yada:
Active Ingredient: see above....same animal basically minus the tylenol in most
Morphine:
Active Ingredient: morphine sulfate or 7,8-didehydro-4,5 -epoxy-17-mtehyl-morphinian-3, 6 -diol sulfate(2:1)(salt)pentahydrate OR C17H19NO3 [love that chemistry, baby]
Dilaudid:
Active Ingredient: Hydromorphone HCl or Morphinan-6-one,4,5-epoxy-3-hydroxy-17-methyl-,hydrochloride, (5 alpha) OR C17H19NO3HCl
You don't have to know chemistry to see the similiarities in the chemical forumulaes....heyyy, looky that morphine and dilaudid seem a lot alike, hehe. You can add a sulfate or a hydrochloric molecule to most of these and produce a drug that is slightly different...not so much in effect, but in delivery.
My point being...they are pretty much all the same. Dilaudid (of course) will never work better than Morphine and the vicodins, percocets, etc will NEVER work better than the Oxycontins et al since they are the same drug with higher doses. (though oxy's are time release so used differently).
Anyway, take it how you will....hope this helps.
Most employers give urine test, blood tests are too expensive and invasive and patches take too long and are expensive as well.
The amount of time that a drug takes to clear your system depends on two factors: 1. The rate at which your body processes the drug and 2. The quantities of drug that have been taken.
A urine test may be passed if the taker has "flushed" his system by drinking a lot of water resulting in a more dilute sample....though most centers are supposed to screen for this, many ignore it.
Marijuana: For the casual user, someone who only smokes lightly once every week or two, 3-4 days is usually fine. The daily user should wait at least a week.....both should drink plenty of fluids.
Percocet, oxycontin, vicodin, tylenol-4, heroin, opium, dilaudid....etc. are all members of members of the opiate family (synthetic or otherwise) and will show up as "opiate" on the urinalysis. For sustained and probably relatively high level use such as the one indicated you should wait at least a week, drinking plenty of water as before.....maybe a little longer.
All "speed" like drugs [this basically refers to amphetimines, methamphetamines, and cocaine] are out of your system in 72 hours.
When you take your p*ss test, the med tech will ask you if you are currently on any medications. If the ones you have listed are the only ones than they are all opiates......therefore, you only have produce legitimacy for one of these drugs to cover them all. (in case you don't wish to divulge dependancy on the heavier ones like morphine and dilaudid). They may ask why, but you only have to give a decent reason....they don't dig too deep. Now, if you DO choose to list the heavier ones...well let's just say that a "decent" reason for morphine is a different than a "decent" reason for vicodin.
Now for the technical that may doubt the above "groupings":
Percocet:
Active Ingredients: Acetaminophen 500mg(tylenol) and oxycodone 5mg(opiate derivative).
Oxycodone--> hydroxydihydrocodeinone or C18H21NO4 * HCl [for the chemically inclined
)Oxycontin, roxycontin, hydrocodone, percolone, vicoden, yada, yada:
Active Ingredient: see above....same animal basically minus the tylenol in most
Morphine:
Active Ingredient: morphine sulfate or 7,8-didehydro-4,5 -epoxy-17-mtehyl-morphinian-3, 6 -diol sulfate(2:1)(salt)pentahydrate OR C17H19NO3 [love that chemistry, baby]
Dilaudid:
Active Ingredient: Hydromorphone HCl or Morphinan-6-one,4,5-epoxy-3-hydroxy-17-methyl-,hydrochloride, (5 alpha) OR C17H19NO3HCl
You don't have to know chemistry to see the similiarities in the chemical forumulaes....heyyy, looky that morphine and dilaudid seem a lot alike, hehe. You can add a sulfate or a hydrochloric molecule to most of these and produce a drug that is slightly different...not so much in effect, but in delivery.
My point being...they are pretty much all the same. Dilaudid (of course) will never work better than Morphine and the vicodins, percocets, etc will NEVER work better than the Oxycontins et al since they are the same drug with higher doses. (though oxy's are time release so used differently).
Anyway, take it how you will....hope this helps.
Originally posted by: krunk7
There seems to be a lot of misconceptions flying around here. I don't claim to be an expert in any sense, but I have studied these subjects before. So I'll give a little bit of personal experience and than something a bit more technical:
Most employers give urine test, blood tests are too expensive and invasive and patches take too long and are expensive as well.
The amount of time that a drug takes to clear your system depends on two factors: 1. The rate at which your body processes the drug and 2. The quantities of drug that have been taken.
A urine test may be passed if the taker has "flushed" his system by drinking a lot of water resulting in a more dilute sample....though most centers are supposed to screen for this, many ignore it.
Marijuana: For the casual user, someone who only smokes lightly once every week or two, 3-4 days is usually fine. The daily user should wait at least a week.....both should drink plenty of fluids.
Percocet, oxycontin, vicodin, tylenol-4, heroin, opium, dilaudid....etc. are all members of members of the opiate family (synthetic or otherwise) and will show up as "opiate" on the urinalysis. For sustained and probably relatively high level use such as the one indicated you should wait at least a week, drinking plenty of water as before.....maybe a little longer.
All "speed" like drugs [this basically refers to amphetimines, methamphetamines, and cocaine] are out of your system in 72 hours.
When you take your p*ss test, the med tech will ask you if you are currently on any medications. If the ones you have listed are the only ones than they are all opiates......therefore, you only have produce legitimacy for one of these drugs to cover them all. (in case you don't wish to divulge dependancy on the heavier ones like morphine and dilaudid). They may ask why, but you only have to give a decent reason....they don't dig too deep. Now, if you DO choose to list the heavier ones...well let's just say that a "decent" reason for morphine is a different than a "decent" reason for vicodin.
Now for the technical that may doubt the above "groupings":
Percocet:
Active Ingredients: Acetaminophen 500mg(tylenol) and oxycodone 5mg(opiate derivative).
Oxycodone--> hydroxydihydrocodeinone or C18H21NO4 * HCl [for the chemically inclined
Oxycontin, roxycontin, hydrocodone, percolone, vicoden, yada, yada:
Active Ingredient: see above....same animal basically minus the tylenol in most
Morphine:
Active Ingredient: morphine sulfate or 7,8-didehydro-4,5 -epoxy-17-mtehyl-morphinian-3, 6 -diol sulfate(2:1)(salt)pentahydrate OR C17H19NO3 [love that chemistry, baby]
Dilaudid:
Active Ingredient: Hydromorphone HCl or Morphinan-6-one,4,5-epoxy-3-hydroxy-17-methyl-,hydrochloride, (5 alpha) OR C17H19NO3HCl
You don't have to know chemistry to see the similiarities in the chemical forumulaes....heyyy, looky that morphine and dilaudid seem a lot alike, hehe. You can add a sulfate or a hydrochloric molecule to most of these and produce a drug that is slightly different...not so much in effect, but in delivery.
My point being...they are pretty much all the same. Dilaudid (of course) will never work better than Morphine and the vicodins, percocets, etc will NEVER work better than the Oxycontins et al since they are the same drug with higher doses. (though oxy's are time release so used differently).
Anyway, take it how you will....hope this helps.
Umm... this has already been discussed Dilaudid is more powerful than morphine. The Oral and IV dosage of Dilaudid is significantly less than the dosage needed for morphine. BTW, Vicodin/Loratab/Lorcet(hydrocodone/hydrocodeine) are WAY different than Percocet(Oxycodone+APAP) or Oxycontin(Oxycodone in time release form). Also, cocaine and amphetamines are two vastly different substances when we are speaking about a urinalysis.
Link again to show you what I am talking about.
I think it hurt more than it helped, because of the sheer inaccuracy of many of your points.
Hydrocodone (AKA Vicodin) will NOT be tested for on a standard urine NIDA-5 test. Just stick to Vicodin for about 4 days before the test and you'll be fine.
Well, unless I get sick between now and the drug test I don't have to worry about sticking to a certain medication. I only take the stuff when I need it and that's it. About the only thing I take on a daily basis is a multivitamin. Now, if I was on some sort of medication 24x7 then I guess it would be helpful to stick to just Vicodin, but for right now I'm not taking anything and I haven't taken anything in well over a week.
I'm sure with my posts I sound like I take something each and every day, but that's simply not the truth. I take my meds when I'm sick and when I'm fine I take nothing. Simple as that.
Well if you do get sick, start getting pain or whatever, and have a choice of things to take, take vic. That's all i meant.
NIDA-5 tests for Opiates. Why do you think Hydrocodone wouldn't show up? It really depends on how many ng/ml is the cutoff for his company when it comes to Opiates.
Hydrocodone doesn't break down into morphine like heroin or codiene does.
http://www.erowid.org/pharms/hydrocodone/hydrocodone_testing.shtml
Hydrocodone [4,5a-epoxy-3-methoxy-17-methylmorphinan-6-one tartrate (1:1) hydrate (2:5), dihydrocodeinone] is a semisynthetic opioid structurally related to codeine and is approximately equipotent to morphine in producing opiate-like effects. The first report that hydrocodone produced a "striking euphoria" and habituation symptoms was published in 1923; the first report of hydrocodone dependency in the U.S. was published in 1961. It was removed from exempt status in the U.S. by the Narcotics Manufacturing Act of 1960.
There are over 200 products containing hydrocodone in the U.S. In its most usual product forms hydrocodone is combined with acetaminophen (Vicodin, Lortab), but it is also combined with aspirin (Lortab ASA), ibuprofen (Vicoprofen), and antihistamines (Hycomine). Both tablet and liquid forms of hydrocodone are available (e.g., Tussionex)
Hydrocodone will react as a normal opiate in the available field test kits.
I have seen this same Pharmacological breakdown on several sites. Why would a field test show positive and a urine test not? Well you could argue the breakdown of the drug in the human body, but the NIDA-5 tests for metabolites of Opiate substances. Hydrocodone is NOT easily picked up in a basic NIDA-5(
As argued here), but it can be picked up based on sensitivity levels that the company or screening lab uses. It also depends upon the technology and equipment that the people in labs have access to. Why hydrocodone can be hard to find in urine, it is done quite regularly.
It was actually hard to find something that listed what all hydrocodone was metabolized into, but then I remembered rxlist:
Metabolism: Hydrocodone exhibits a complex pattern of metabolism, including O -demethylation, N -demethylation, and 6-keto reduction to the corresponding 6-(alpha)-and 6-(beta)-hydroxy metabolites. Hydromorphone, a potent opioid, is formed from the O -demethylation of hydrocodone and contributes to the total analgesic effect of hydrocodone. The O - and N -demethylation processes are mediated by separate P-450 isoenzymes: CYP2D6 and CYP3A4, respectively.
I can't find SH!T for what Hydromorphone metabolizes into. I cannot find pharmacology anywhere that mentions it. Erowid said it is not detectable on NIDA-5, but it doesn't say how Hydromorphone is metabolized either. I always give Erowid a watchful eye, because I have discovered errors before.
I have heard of positive drug tests for moderate usage of hydrocodone, but then again I have nothing to substantiate that and neither does erowid.
"Metabolism: Hydromorphone is excreted in the urine principally unchanged. [Top]"
http://www.norchemlab.com/reference/ds-opiates.htm
http://www.norchemlab.com/reference/ds-opiates.htm
Wait - that means if you are somehow able to seperate hydromorphone from the normal urine ingredients, you can effectively recycle it. I can just see somebody fiending for opiates drinkin their own piss. wacky stuff for sure.
Time to send these findings over to the drug forums.
Time to send these findings over to the drug forums.
Looks like you built up a tolerance to morphine so the normal safe dosage doesn't work for your pains anymore.
Yep, that's basically the size of it. The sad thing is that I'm building up a tolerance to these drugs too quickly. I've gotten to the point where methadone isn't working the way it used to. I could understand if I took the stuff every day but I don't so I don't really know what will happen from here on out. I'd hate to have to go to the hospital every time I'm sick, but if I keep becomming immune to the my meds I'm not really going to have a choice.
You should tell us your condition. Seriously.
We would be a lot more sympathetic, and it's not like any of us know you.. so it doesen't even matter.It might feel good to talk about it.
You need a different doctor then. Without your condition there is no way for us to give you any advice on what to do. If it is cancer, marijuana helps. Seriously.
Ahh.. I didn't think about something like cancer. I was thinking along the lines of severe migranes, or.. I really don't know.
i wouldn't worry about it if you in fact do take them legally, but if you dont take them legally i'd worry
Whatever it is, I can't see how it is that embarrassing to post. Now, unless we are talking about some weird fvcking sh!t that attacks your dick.
Originally posted by: stev0
ROTFL. that right there is dumbest answer to a question i have ever seen on these boards. so the drug test is going to be able to tell if your abusing a presription drug that you are on? depending on body weight and what you are on the medication for. the same does that a doctor could prescribe a 250lb man could be the same size dose that would get a small teen flying. but in a drug test, it's going to show up in both people, regardless of legit use or otherwise.
your best bet is to listen to millennium, he knows what he is talking about when it comes to these sorts of things.
LOL! That wasn't a serious answer. Hah hah! Of course prescription medications such as opioids can be detected on drug tests.
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