Do NOT take RoboTech v BenSkywalker seriously

[BenSkywalker]

I feel the need to make this clear,

When I am arguing with RoboTech, I am doing it solely for the sake of arguing. If you are looking for some solid advice on video cards, or inquiring about particular techologies used, please ignore our little tiffs.

I can't say for certain that Robo is as light hearted about these arguments as I am, but a quick scan of his sig shows he is running a GF2 64MB board so my assumption is that he is thinking of this as I am(feel free to disagree you SOB).

If you notice, we mainly muck up threads which are there to be mucked up, or arguments/debates/discussions that are already in progress.

Also, you might notice BFG involved a lot too, he runs a V3 2K, Robo is running nVidia and BFG is running 3dfx.

I know this is all well known to most of the regulars in this forum, but those who are dropping in once in a great while or are visiting for the first time, I at least am light heartedly involved in a p!ssing match and nothing more, it is all in fun

 

[Wingznut]

Don't I get any credit for "mucking up threads"?

*feels left out*

 

[BenSkywalker]

I apologize for leaving out Wingnut, he has aided a great deal with the muckings up, and is the other half of the wrong side of most arguments

WingnutPEZ+RoboTECH vs BenSkywalker+BFG10K

 

[Wingznut]

Thanks, I feel much better now... ummm, I think.

 

[Ahriman6]

Ben:

That's fine. If it's only playing around, no problem. But you need to remember that you write for a site that's run by a guy who's horribly infamous for being virulently anti-3dfx in Usenet. A simple Deja search will show that Jeff has serious issues (and I mean serious) with anything 3dfx-related, and his V3 review that he wrote for Firingsquad was shown to contain falsified screenshots intended to make the V3's image quality look bad. And don't say that was last year because I see Atwood posting on boards like B3D still taking pot-shots at 3dfx. And you know what? I really don't care that the man is biased for or against any particular company; what angers me is watching him label other people as biased (like when he wrote that he's detected a certain amount of 3dfx bias at Hardocp in the past). The hypocrisy involved in such statements is what bothers me.

If you don't share these strong biases, that's great but your association probably calls for you being a wee-bit more circumspect, IMO.

 

[BenSkywalker]

I haven't known Jeff for that long, and I honestly can't say that I have seen any of that.

In fact, the first time I had direct interaction with him was an argument we got into over on his site about problems with nVidia hardware(he was talking about the problems, I was on the defensive).

As far as HardOCP, I can site an example of anti nVidia bias in testing that was pointed out to Kyle that he refused to address on his site(hardware T&L, he completely ignored the only API with fully functioning support). I'm not speaking for GB here, anyone who has been around here long enough has heard my, and LeoV's rants about the tests done by HardOCP(along with Kyle via numerous emails from LV), but every site can be shown to have certain tests or comments that can be interpeted as bashing one company or "pimping" another.

Myself I have no particular bias, I buy the best product for what I do, and could care less who makes it. At this point in time, that is nVidia but mainly because I work with 3D visualization and play games. If I only played games and didn't have to worry about full OpenGL ICD performance/stability and T&L performance in modeling apps, I would hands down pick up a Radeon. It is simply the best overall gaming board on the market at this moment in this point in time.

 

[Ahriman6]

Ben:

Cool! Thanks for the level-headed response and my sincere apologies for jumping on you the way I did. I assumed because of your association with Gamebasement.

Funny thing is, I would recommend the Radeon too.

 

[RoboTECH]

Ben, what are you talking aobut WRT the hardOCP thing? Kyle seems to like his GTS (as do I, just not as good as my 5500, heh..) Just curious.

as far as wumpus is concerned, he is well-known for having a strong anti-3dfx bias, not necessarily a pro-nvidia bias. he's kinda like BFG in that respect.

Oh, and by the way, i take these discussions much more seriously than you think. In fact, I got so mad after reading one of your posts, I almost turned into my alter ego. Someone got a pic of me, too. I'll post the link when I get to my other system at home.

 

[merlocka]

Well, I must say that your arguments "for the sake of arguing" produce more good facts than I have found on many other BBS's. (Funny how BBS has BS in it )

I've leaned quite a bit about 3d rendering from you guys so thanks for the input, regardless of it's intention.

 

[Gandalf90125]

Yes! Your arguments have been as informative--if not more so--than all the 3dfx and nVidia reviews over the past year when it comes down to choosing a card.

The reviews are full of information, but so is a "road test" article in Road & Track. Opinions from someone who's extensively driven the vehicle in question can be more valuable than an article written by a reviewer who's had the car for a limited time.

 

[RoboTECH]

I TAKE THIS $HIT SERIOUSLY PEOPLE!!!

STOP MESSING WITH ME!!!!!!

I'M GETTING VERY VERY ANGRY!!!!!!



What happens when I get angry

 

[BFG10K]

Also, you might notice BFG involved a lot too, he runs a V3 2K,

Not for much longer! I should get my GF2 MX soon.

I'll try to put up a nice review of it when I get it.

 

[Sunner]

LOL @ Robo
You funny!

 

[RoboTECH]

hehehe...

BFG, I thoguht you were leaning toward a Radeon?

 

[TAsunder]

You guys aren't seriously arch enemies??

Man this is worse than the time my mom told me Santa Claus isn't real (I still don't believe her).

 

[Sunner]

Santa is very real, dont you believe anything else.
He still wont give me that 911 Turbo I've wished for for a while now, but there's another christmas comming up soon, so...

 

[RoboTECH]

TAsunder, Ben makes me so mad, I get all green.

Check the link in the above post, that's what happens when we talk

 

[BenSkywalker]

ROBO SMAAAASSSSSSHHHHH!!!!!!!

Heheheh....

"Ben, what are you talking aobut WRT the hardOCP thing? Kyle seems to like his GTS (as do I, just not as good as my 5500, heh..) Just curious."

Kyle posted an article on the GeForce's hardware T&L performance a while back. He used three different tests, 3DMark2K's high poly test, WinBench2000 and TD6.

For 3DMark2K he first off reported scores so low for hardware T&L that noone could reproduce them. Then, he never once brought up the fact that 3DMark2K uses two different lighting engines depending on whether or not you are running hardware or software T&L(like MDK2). The software test runs diffuse lighting which in comparitive terms is extremely simplistic compared to the specular lighting utilized by hardware T&L. The test may look the same, but it is completely apples to oranges comparison.

WinBench2000 he pretty much attempted to discredit, enough so to get a response from ZDNet(who tends to ignore our community for the most part).

For TD6 he did two things, first he fill limited the bench without every mentioning this fact. This wasn't a case where he brought up resolutions you would like to use or whatever, he simply fill limited the bench and then showed the results as hardware T&L being slower.

This, in itslef, was a driver issue, one that has since been fixed. Kyle, refused to ackowledge any of this at all.

He also was told time and time again that OpenGL T&L benches were far superior, had an established record, and had numerous machines to compare directly against via prior results. He could have easily brought up dozens if not hundreds of results for different CPUs and hardware T&L implementations using GLPerf or ViewPerf but not only did he not do that, he also completely refused to acknowledge the fact that DX was not nearly as mature as OpenGL for hardware T&L support.

These "findings" were repeated by many sites numerous times, including one we both frequent who has since changed their view somewhat, at least judging by some of their more recent artilces, calling the NV hardware T&L "too powerful for gaming".

Of all the truthful and honest things he could say that make T&L less of an issue(game support being the most obvious), he chose instead to try and make it seem like it was slower then SIMD CPU software based T&L. This is simply false, even when pitting an Athlon T-Bird 1.2GHZ against a GeForce1, the GeForce still throttles it and badly.

He wrote a series of artilces, three if memory serves, and was notified repeatedly after each one of his flawed testing and results, he only acknowledged these issues privately, leaving the article to mislead many people.

 

[RoboTECH]

interesting...

I find that my GTS runs MDK2 slower w/T&L enabled @ 1280 and 1600 than with it disabled

of course, it's probably becuase of the different lighting engines.

heh....BTW, my kids absolutely LOOOOVE that pic, heh...."Daddy's all green like the Hulk"

heh......funny stuff. a buddy of mine sent that to me, the dirty bastage!

 

[BFG10K]

BFG, I thoguht you were leaning toward a Radeon?

I really tried very hard to get it but none of my local retailers could find a distributor for it. And it would be too expensive for me to get it from the U.S.

I'll explain everything in my review when I put it up.

 

[SmackdownHotel]

Hey Robotech, didn't you GUARANTEE a 3dfx annoucement regarding the release of the v5 6000..oh..about a month ago?

 

[RoboTECH]

indeed

the announcement has been "they're possibly NOT goign to release the damn thing"

why?

because the Intel bridge chip (used to make the 4 VSA-100's look like 1 core to the AGP - allows for AGPx4 transfers) is having serious problems with AMD and Via motherboards

doesn't that just fuggin' figure!

:disgust:

 

[Wingznut]

Where do you live, BFG?

 

[SmackdownHotel]

Hey Robo, sorry if I came across as cynical or highly critical, I am anxiously anticipating this card as much as you are.

 

[RoboTECH]

i hear ya Smack

when I heard about that, i nearly pissed myself with anger

DOESN'T IT FUGGIN' FIGURE THAT AN INTEL BRIDGE CHIP WON'T WORK WITH AN AMD OR VIA MOBO!?!?!

<grumble grumble grumble>