Do liberalism and conservatism have a single underlying premise?

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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At some level, I figure there has to be a single (or small set) of core principles underlying liberalism and conservativism which explain their worldview and how they arrive at the viewpoints they have on various issues.

One person I asked believed that it was a difference in beliefs on what the nature of man is; that conservatives essentially believe in the concept of "original sin" (that man is essentially not good by nature) and that liberals believe the opposite. I don't think that's it though, otherwise it would be consistent in both the economic and social realms. If that were the case, then it would make sense that the conservative side would see laissez faire economics as catering to man's baser instincts, and thus in need of being controlled (similar to how they feel the need for society to assert "family values" in controlling aspects of culture). Liberals similarly fail this consistency test.

So what's the underlying assumptions which underpin liberalism and conservatism, and form the worldview from which they determine what to believe on all the other issues of the day?

This is not intended to be a mud wrestling competition, such as "conservatives are neanderthals" or "liberals are wannabe communists."
 

TheBoyBlunder

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2003
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Yeah. Each side believes they're right, and the other side is nothing but a bunch of satan worshipers.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
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"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


Its just like the bible, subject to its interpretation, that finds people thinking differently....

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Ya to act like they hate one another while smoking in the back room with lobbiests who grift the american worker and small businessman...warez they sell, to regulations, to protecting and favoring big business.

The Republicans act like it's taxes holding people back but spend more money the Democrates then come in and play cleanup ..rinse repeat.
 

Caminetto

Senior member
Jul 29, 2001
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Basically, it boils down to the age old argument of whether mankindis totally a creature ofhisown free will (conservative) ora creature of hisenvironment/experiences (liberal).I personally believe it's some of both, but the moreyou buy intoone argument or the other, the moreextreme you are.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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What I find funny about conservatives and liberals is their claim that they are much different from each other. Both have basically perpetuated the same system of government. The welfare state and collectivism in general has absolutely exploded in the past century under both conservatives and liberals, and it all happened right after the government took control of the medium of exchange which is now the U.S. dollar or the Federal Reserve Note. The adoption and widespread use of government currency has enabled the government to levy taxes and fines like there is no tomorrow and no matter what anyone claims there is nary a hair's difference between your average conservative and your average liberal.
 
May 10, 2001
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If that were the case, then it would make sense that the conservative side would see laissez faire economics as catering to man's baser instincts,
we do, but that's the beauty: it works because people are evil.
get the government involved and you just take power away from a system that thrives on humans being evil and replace it with a system that decays because of humans being evil.

boils down to the age old argument of whether mankind is totally a creature of his own free will (conservative) or a creature of his environment/experiences (liberal).
best answer.

I've had a relatively crap life and I?m doing quite all right, so I believe that our lives are what we make of them.
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
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Liberalism and conservatism are terms or descriptions of 20th century political movements. Now they are passe because the issues are too complicated and the US is too politically diverse to define issues in terms of left and right.
Both liberals and conservatives are all over the place on the issues to the point where the two words are cliches.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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Ah, The Unified Field Theory of Politics!

Yes, but the math gets tricky when you try to integrate the differentials.

:roll:

-Robert
 

Bulk Beef

Diamond Member
Aug 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: Zephyr106
Which of the two sides espouses idealism and which realism?
Liberalism:idealism & conservatism:realism is what I had in mind. Of course, that's a gross oversimplification, but if you're trying boil an ideology down to one single premise, or one word, that's inevitable.

Personally, I think the idea of a liberal vs. conservative world is itself a gross oversimplification, and both terms are way overused. The notion that the scale of political thought is linear is obviously flawed. I think of it as more of a sphere, with an infinite number of points in multiple dimensions. Note also that on a sphere, if you go far enough in any direction, you wind up on the other side, sharing space with those that went just as far in the opposite direction.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Originally posted by: sward666
Originally posted by: Zephyr106
Which of the two sides espouses idealism and which realism?
Liberalism:idealism & conservatism:realism is what I had in mind. Of course, that's a gross oversimplification, but if you're trying boil an ideology down to one single premise, or one word, that's inevitable.

Personally, I think the idea of a liberal vs. conservative world is itself a gross oversimplification, and both terms are way overused. The notion that the scale of political thought is linear is obviously flawed. I think of it as more of a sphere, with an infinite number of points in multiple dimensions. Note also that on a sphere, if you go far enough in any direction, you wind up on the other side, sharing space with those that went just as far in the opposite direction.

I think just the opposite. Conservatives are idealistic thinking all will be just fine with governemnt hands off social issues. Idealistic in thier leaders and place way too much trust in them and sit at the feet of their masters and be spoon-fed a myriad of half-baked speculations . Evidently conservatives ideal of "rugged individualism" and pragmatism, is forgotten when national defense or law enforcement enters into the conversation. That their bureaucracy called "The FBI" or "The CIA" differs in any qualitative way from the bureaucracy called "the post office" or "the welfare state" can never be explained by these people. All they know is that when the government comes around asking for more money, more lives, and more power in the name of "national security," everybody had better fall into line.

They also forget thier idealist way of life, which was around during the industail age till hoover is what lead to the 25% unemplyment/children working/robber barrens etc resulting in the liberal new deal and 70 years of democractic domination in congress. Nevertheless they long for this idealistic lifesytle of hands off which had disasterous consquences.

Idealistic, unprincipled and bad memory.:)



Liberals want to make everyones life a little better. Sure some ideas are half baked but at least they try.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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underlying premises between left and right from http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/leftandright.htm

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the difference can be summarized in one word. Democracy. Liberals believe in it. Conservatives don't. Many conservatives say as much. The question is why this fundamental difference, and what does it say about the real underlying difference between left and right.

I believe at bottom what we are dealing with is a fundamental conservative belief in social hierarchy. In fact, it appears to me that this fundamental belief goes beyond the philosophical into the realm of anthropology. In fact, without getting into a great deal of detail here -- I talk about it at length at my website -- it gets down a basic requirement of civilization built on human labor without the assistance of machines. Simply put, a privileged elite in such civilizations emerges simply because there is inadequate surplus production to support a more equial distribution among society as a whole. The conservative world-view is very simply a throw-back to a world of nobles and serfs.

In such a world, the government is made up of and exists to serve the interests of the elite. And indeed, that was the purpose and function of government for 6000 years until the end of the eighteenth century. Interestingly, with the rise of industrialization came the rise of modern notions of democracy, human rights and eventually the interests of labor. It brought about a revolution in the very concept of the nature and purpose of government. Whereas in the ancient and medieval world the government served the elite, today the government exists to serve the interests of all of the people.

Obviously, a government that serves the interests of the people ought to be controlled by them. And indeed, the roots of liberal, social democratic and even socialist philosophy are found in this very revolution in thinking. One of the more famous philosophers of this new vision of government and democracy was Thomas Jefferson.

Indeed, I have seen no better formulation of the modern theory of democracy than that contained within the Declaration of Independence. "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and institute new Government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and Happiness."

In other words, the people of a nation can set their government up any way they want to, and can empower it to do anything they want it do. The only limitation on the form or power of the government is that set by the "consent of the governed" -- which would include minorities within a society. In other words, the only real limitation on the power and function of government.is the political process itself. Ideologies that perceive grossly limited "legitimate functions of government" have simply failed to understand the fundamental premise of democracy. The people can empower their government any way they want to. Who else besides the people who live in a country ought to decide what its government can and can't do. That is a question liberatarians have a hard time answering.

This perhaps explains a lack of strong ideology, particularly among liberals. Liberals are inevitably pragmatic. We look to our government -- that we at least theoretically control -- to solve problems we can't solve as individuals. We do not perceive any particular "evil" or "tyranny" inherent in this -- though such tyranny is certainly posssible. Where the conservative sees "big government tyranny" in such things as Social Security and the Environmental Protection Agency, we see beneficial and benevolent uses of the power of the state. We see exactly the kinds of things government ought to do more of. It is the old fashioned uses of government -- prison, torture, executions, domestic surveillance, and of course war -- we'd like to see less of.

But those traditional functions of government are precisely the functions conservatives have no problem with. What was the medieval equivalent of the Social Security Administration? When did the Plantagenet monarchs of medieval England create anything that remotely resembled the National Labor Relations Board. In those days, a labor organizer was more likely to find himself dancing at the end of a rope. Because government in those days, employing the uses of government approved by conservatives, did little or nothing to advance the interests of regular people.

This new philosophy of government has become so well established in people's minds, no one would seriously suggest that we return to days of government as the arm of the elite. Now of course, many on the left claim -- and they are frequently correct -- that this is exactly what government continues to do. But there is a difference. In the old days, everyone understood that as the primary purpose of the government. Today, such oligarchies must dissemble about their true nature. They must at least pretend to be democratic. The fact is, that the modern view of the purpose of goverment makes popular control of the government the ultimate outcome, unless elites intervene to stop it.

This is where modern conservative ideology comes in. Notice that the conservative believes in hierarchy. He believes in social classes, and in the perogatives of wealth and privilege. He believes this in a world where the dominant political philosophy favors equality and democracy. Furthermore, that philosophy has created an interesting opportunity for the conservative, namely "social mobility". Persons of low birth can, theoretically, rise up through the heirarchy to become members of the elite. So he is not quite prepared to return to the days of legal class distinctions. He is content to accept de facto social classes, which of course is what our capitalists are.

Actually, the conservative does a neat conceptual trick. He privatizes privilege and class tyranny. Speaking the language of "liberty", and accepting the reality of democracy, he simply seeks shrink the realm of the legitimate power of democratic government to the point where it barely exists. According to the conservative, the only thing a democratic government can legitimately do is enforce his property and contract rights. Sure, the people may establish representative democracies, but those governments can't do anything that actually benefits more than a small segment of society.

Thus, we hear the conservative decry public tyranny -- read that "big government". What he calls "tyranny" is in fact efforts of popularly elected government to reign in the private tyranny found on his shop floor. In fact, the conservative isn't concerned about "tyranny" at all. He simply wants to shrink the sphere of public tyranny, and move it to "the private sector".

By now, you should begin to understand those really entertaining contradictions of conservative ideology. The hate "big government", but they clearly are talking about government restrictions on their power to pollute and exploit. The recognize no limitation on the power of government to protect their interests. The use the language of "liberty" but their methods inevitably reek of coercion. The support the "military solution" every time. Instead of throwing money at social problems, they throw prison at them. And of course, the "free market" itself is a ruthless jungle -- Hobbes' "war of all against all" -- where the economically powerful, thanks to government created and enforced rights, can use "market forces" to compel you to work cheap. There is little "liberty" to the conservative conception of liberty, except the liberty of the rich to throw their economic weight around.

So the difference between left and right comes down to a difference between hierarchy and equality and between oligarchy and democracy. The liberal left sees democratic government as a useful tool to be used for policies "as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness". The right sees democratic government as a threat to the power and privilege of wealthy elites, who increasingly exercise their tyranny in the private sector.
 

Bulk Beef

Diamond Member
Aug 14, 2001
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Liberals want to make everyones life a little better. Sure some ideas are half baked but at least they try.
You don't think that's a perfect example of idealism?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Originally posted by: sward666
Liberals want to make everyones life a little better. Sure some ideas are half baked but at least they try.
You don't think that's a perfect example of idealism?

I think they are both idealists.
 
May 10, 2001
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zebo, do you know how ignorant to the reality of how production and labor are distributed and wealth is created your post was?

If you don't understand fundamental principles of production I?ll be happy to explain them.

Other wise I?d just like to say I?m looking at working my ars off for 8 years in collage only to have 1/3rd of the time I spend adding to our society as a slave to the government: how is that fair?;

Sour grapes because others have more than you isn't 'liberty'; A government that punishes people who work hard or those that both employ the masses and better everyone?s standard of living, because the intellectual elites are to smart to understand basic economics, is a government that violates our inalienable human rights to a free life, social liberty, and the pursuit of wealth.
 

josphII

Banned
Nov 24, 2001
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to answer your question the underlying principle is both librals and conservaties believe that hard work should yield more rewards (such as going to college and learning a skill or having some exceptional talent) and those that provide necessary services for society, but havn't necessarily learned a skill or have an exceptional talent, should also be rewarded. the difference between the two is the degree in which each is rewarded. the conservative might argue that a person holding a phd in mathematics working as a professor and making $70k/yr is underpaid given his level of expertise. a liberal might argue that a construction worker making $30k/yr is underpaid given his contribution to society.

somebody posted a link once which explained this quite eliquently but i dont have it.
 
May 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: josphII
to answer your question the underlying principle is both librals and conservaties believe that hard work should yield more rewards (such as going to college and learning a skill or having some exceptional talent) and those that provide necessary services for society, but havn't necessarily learned a skill or have an exceptional talent, should also be rewarded. the difference between the two is the degree in which each is rewarded. the conservative might argue that a person holding a phd in mathematics working as a professor and making $70k/yr is underpaid given his level of expertise. a liberal might argue that a construction worker making $30k/yr is underpaid given his contribution to society.

somebody posted a link once which explained this quite eliquently but i dont have it.

I argue that both are paid properly as you get paid what you are worth when the economy is free to set wages. If you don't have enough construction workers or math professors, then they are under paid.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: josphII
to answer your question the underlying principle is both librals and conservaties believe that hard work should yield more rewards (such as going to college and learning a skill or having some exceptional talent) and those that provide necessary services for society, but havn't necessarily learned a skill or have an exceptional talent, should also be rewarded. the difference between the two is the degree in which each is rewarded. the conservative might argue that a person holding a phd in mathematics working as a professor and making $70k/yr is underpaid given his level of expertise. a liberal might argue that a construction worker making $30k/yr is underpaid given his contribution to society.

somebody posted a link once which explained this quite eliquently but i dont have it.

That's odd, considering 57.9 percent of the federal budget is transfer payments to individuals. This budget was passed by a Republican controlled whitehouse and congress.

Link

See:
Social Security
Income Security
Medicare
Health
 

LadyJessica

Senior member
Apr 20, 2000
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Well, the difference between liberals and conservatives is how they spend other people's money. As to how much they spend, I think it's pretty much a toss-up.
 
May 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: josphII
to answer your question the underlying principle is both librals and conservaties believe that hard work should yield more rewards (such as going to college and learning a skill or having some exceptional talent) and those that provide necessary services for society, but havn't necessarily learned a skill or have an exceptional talent, should also be rewarded. the difference between the two is the degree in which each is rewarded. the conservative might argue that a person holding a phd in mathematics working as a professor and making $70k/yr is underpaid given his level of expertise. a liberal might argue that a construction worker making $30k/yr is underpaid given his contribution to society.

somebody posted a link once which explained this quite eliquently but i dont have it.

That's odd, considering 57.9 percent of the federal budget is transfer payments to individuals. This budget was passed by a Republican controlled whitehouse and congress.

Link

See:
Social Security
Income Security
Medicare
Health
1.) The democrats can still keep things from moving in the senate.

2.) Reducing taxes and government expenditures on transfer payments is all well and good, but we also believe in keeping a social safety net for those who truly can't make their way and help those that want to.