Do huge air coolers make sense?

[tolis626]

So...Do huge air coolers make any sense relative to their price?I'm talking about coolers like the CoolerMaster v8 GTS (Which I'm thinking about getting,I find it quite sexy),the Be Quiet! Dark Rock Pro 2 or the (unbelievably ugly) Noctua NH-D14.All these cost north of 90€ and are so huge that they dominate the space inside the case.Comparing them to water coolers like the Corsair H100i or whatever Antec Kuhler model out there,what do they perform like?

 

[Carson Dyle]

You're worried about "ugly" CPU coolers?

I think a lot of people just don't want to deal with water cooling. I know I don't. I use a fairly large cooler that was a good value (Scythe Mugen 3, was $45), but primarily for silent operation, not overclocking. I do agree that many of those coolers seem to be very overpriced.

 

[DigDog]

nah, air coolers are on their way out.

some smaller, budget coolers such as the Hyper 212 will stay because of price/efficency, and ofc some people will have a hard time adapting, some will keep their old coolers, but imho AIOs are the future.

(that, and AIO-PhaseChange, who knows)

But then again, nobody can tell. Will next gen CPU be still as overclockable as they are now?
Will TDPs drop dramatically, leading to lower cooling needs?

Right now, with the new AIO offerings from Swiftech, Tt, CM, NZXT, you can buy ridiculous good efficiency for very little money; expandable loops are also being offered now, so "more-than-one-AIO" solutions might become more popular in the near future, with GPUs added in the loop.

Hey, maybe Corsair will start branding WCd GPUs next, who knows.

 

[tolis626]

You're worried about "ugly" CPU coolers?

I think a lot of people just don't want to deal with water cooling. I know I don't. I use a fairly large cooler that was a good value (Scythe Mugen 3, was $45), but primarily for silent operation, not overclocking. I do agree that many of those coolers seem to be very overpriced.

You misunderstood.I'm just the kind of person who will buy a case with a side window and occassionaly look inside and savour the moment.I just have a thing for my PC looking as nice as I want it and I do occassionaly shell out some additional cash just for something that looks better (RAM with cool heatsinks,gaming mobos etc).If the "ugly" product is better enough,I won't sacrifice performance.Just a few €.

That said,the Noctuas' brown color doesn't go well with anything IMO.Why they insist on using it is beyond me.Great products otherwise.

As for water cooling...Well,to each their own,but I like tinkering anyway,so I wouldn't mind liquid cooling.Just not initially.I will most probably include it as an upgrade sometime.

nah, air coolers are on their way out.

some smaller, budget coolers such as the Hyper 212 will stay because of price/efficency, and ofc some people will have a hard time adapting, some will keep their old coolers, but imho AIOs are the future.

(that, and AIO-PhaseChange, who knows)

But then again, nobody can tell. Will next gen CPU be still as overclockable as they are now?
Will TDPs drop dramatically, leading to lower cooling needs?

Right now, with the new AIO offerings from Swiftech, Tt, CM, NZXT, you can buy ridiculous good efficiency for very little money; expandable loops are also being offered now, so "more-than-one-AIO" solutions might become more popular in the near future, with GPUs added in the loop.

Hey, maybe Corsair will start branding WCd GPUs next, who knows.

I think liquid cooling is the only real solution for GPUs in the upcoming years.Look at the MSI Lightning cards.That's what a modern air cooler has to be to be sufficient enough for extreme clocks.At least more or less.I'd just like to see some more ideas in the field.I don't know what,but something seems off with the afforementioned liquid coolers.I'd think that water would be in a completely different league than air,but high-end air coolers manage well against mainstream liquid cooling solutions.And all together pale in comparison to custom closed loops.Maybe using one will change my mind,but still...

 

[MrK6]

So...Do huge air coolers make any sense relative to their price?I'm talking about coolers like the CoolerMaster v8 GTS (Which I'm thinking about getting,I find it quite sexy),the Be Quiet! Dark Rock Pro 2 or the (unbelievably ugly) Noctua NH-D14.All these cost north of 90€ and are so huge that they dominate the space inside the case.Comparing them to water coolers like the Corsair H100i or whatever Antec Kuhler model out there,what do they perform like?

If you want a silent computer that can still overclock, but don't want to go custom water, they really are the only solution. It's a niche market that's probably shrinking, but it has its purpose. A good air cooler will still well outperform any of the "all-in-one" water coolers and will be quieter to boot (take home point: putting the pump in direct contact with anything is a stupid design). That said, my free time would have to be greatly reduced to ever consider leaving custom water, so this is only my two cents.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

nah, air coolers are on their way out.

some smaller, budget coolers such as the Hyper 212 will stay because of price/efficency, and ofc some people will have a hard time adapting, some will keep their old coolers, but imho AIOs are the future.

(that, and AIO-PhaseChange, who knows)

But then again, nobody can tell. Will next gen CPU be still as overclockable as they are now?
Will TDPs drop dramatically, leading to lower cooling needs?

Right now, with the new AIO offerings from Swiftech, Tt, CM, NZXT, you can buy ridiculous good efficiency for very little money; expandable loops are also being offered now, so "more-than-one-AIO" solutions might become more popular in the near future, with GPUs added in the loop.

Hey, maybe Corsair will start branding WCd GPUs next, who knows.

Overclocking could be on it's way out!

Every time I start planning to build a new machine, I revisit this issue. And there was a period where I was investigating more exotic solutions than custom water-cooling, but I didn't do it, for some reasons of personal limits on Rube Goldberg creations and projects.

Then I began to see that water-cooling might buy me just a bit more than 10C for the CPU. I had experimented with TIMs and coolers and lapping. When I would finally decide to build a new system AND do it again with air-cooling, I'd take a month if needed to find out which . . air-cooler . . . had the lowest thermal resistance. I didn't care what it looked like, didn't care how big it was (because you aren't going to be fiddling around with that area of your motherboard much anyway, except to add more RAM).

Now . . . today, I finally found my "sweet-spot" settings to run my i7-2600K at 4.7Ghz instead of 4.6 (which it's been "doing" for the past 2.5 years.) The LinX load voltage settles around 1.35V; the average temperature for the four cores is something between 75 and 79C -- which I say because I have one core sensor that has a 6C-degree upward bias. Figure during these LinX runs -- 35 passes -- the "hot" core never exceeds about 83C.

The other point I'd make here is that units like the Corsair H100i give you just a couple degrees better cooling than the Noctua NH-D14.

Now all that being said -- has ANYBODY discovered a newer model cooler which outperforms the D14? I want to KNOW!

 

[coffeejunkee]

Stuff like this was tested, here:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6916/...nd-12-more-coolers-the-retest-and-megaroundup

and at Tom's hardware:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/h100i-elc240-seidon-240m-lq320,3380.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/water2.0-extreme-kraken-x40-hydro-h90-elc120,3434.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nepton-280l-tundra-td02-water3.0-pro-reserator3-max,3607.html

The NH-D14 did better at TH but it did ok too at AT:

temps:
H100i: 46.4
NH-D14: 48.7

noise:
H100i: 31.4
NH-D14: 31.5

For me the question is actually the other way around, but I can also see the benefits of clc's. Cooling wise they can outperform air because they work better with high rpm fans but it comes at the cost of noise.

TBH, both are bad value if you look at price/temp/noise compared to coolers that cost around $40-50 (but those will limit overclocking somewhat).

 

[rpjkw11]

I have a Phanteks TC-14PE in blue to go with blue and white sleeved cables with black stitching.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Some of the all-in-one water systems are better than I thought. I think I see a 9 or 10C degree difference from the NH-D14.

Time for a change. The NH-D14 profile in the review matches almost to the very degree of the load-less-ambient difference for my system.

So a 10 dBA increase in noise? I think I could do something about that too.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Anyone seen this yet?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=35-103-198&SortField=0&SummaryType=0&Pagesize=10&PurchaseMark=&SelectedRating=5&VideoOnlyMark=False&VendorMark=&IsFeedbackTab=true&Keywords=%28keywords%29

I'd be interested in comparison reviews, but not sure there are any yet.

I'm not eager to buy a new case so I can enhance my SB system.

My HAF midtower has a 200mm fan mount in the case top. I took a preliminary measure of the case: It looks as though the 280mm radiator could barely fit. I'd have to mod some extra holes in the case top. I can imagine how I'd do this without removing the hardware -- avoiding risk of filings dropping into the system.

I'm not sure it would fit anywhere else in the case. I don't like the XB EVO -- known to fit the cooler.

A 5C difference from my NH_D14 may not have been enough for me to consider this, but 9 to 10C difference -- that's another matter.

the Corsair H100i or Kraken X60 would likely fit my system without the trouble of the Nepton. But the small-sample reviews at the Egg make the Nepton a better bet for me.

 

[sf101]

Large air coolers are mostly about reliability now a days and many out perform the cheaper AIO water cooler alternatives @ similar price points.

So right now if you can only afford for instance a H60 or H80 you may be better off with a Larger Air cooler like a Noctura D14 or Phanteks cooler it has 0 chance of the cheap pump failures which are common on AIO's for starters and can like said before often out perform them aswell.

Areas i can see the smaller AIO's being more popular is in HTPC's where you cant fit a high tower heatsink.

Problems with Rads though sometimes is clearance as well its becoming less and less of a problem though in newer cases.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Large air coolers are mostly about reliability now a days and many out perform the cheaper AIO water cooler alternatives @ similar price points.

So right now if you can only afford for instance a H60 or H80 you may be better off with a Larger Air cooler like a Noctura D14 or Phanteks cooler it has 0 chance of the cheap pump failures which are common on AIO's for starters and can like said before often out perform them aswell.

Areas i can see the smaller AIO's being more popular is in HTPC's where you cant fit a high tower heatsink.

Problems with Rads though sometimes is clearance as well its becoming less and less of a problem though in newer cases.

I hear that.

In other thread(s) in the CPUs forum, we had posted Cinebench scores to compare older CPUs (like my Sandy) to newer cores including Haswell -- for instance, the i7-4770K. I find that at 4.7Ghz with loaded VCORE 1.34V <= VCORE <= 1.35V, I'm "neck-and-neck."

What I also find at these new settings is a load temperature of between (low in PRime95) ~74C and (high in LinX) ~79C. These are still low temperatures for this processor!

At the same time, I think my NH-D14's Noctua fans are both limp . . . and heavy. I also think that I can mitigate any additional noise and replace both of those fans with only a single Akasa Viper 140 R. And I also think I can enhance cooling on the D14 with a single 200mm NZXT puller fan, ducted at the top side of D14 fins to the top 200mm fan hole in my HAF.

Now, it is established knowledge on this forum that you can only get so far with a heatpipe cooler by increasing CFMs. However, if some minor fan mods can reduce my temperatures by -- say -- 4C under the LinX testing, dumping the D14 for an H100i or CM Nepton 280L isn't worth the money, the possible mods (likely for the Nepton), or the trouble.

The AiO or closed-loop coolers in the established reviews show at most a 10C improvement over the D14 comparing high fan settings on both. Other wisdom here suggests that it could be less.

If I happen to spend -- this year -- $140 on cooling enhancements of either kind, and knowing I won't dump the Sandy Bridge "this year," it's a reasonable budget for "computer stuff." Under either scenario, I would either have a water-cooler tested and ready for a de-lidded Ivy or Haswell build, or I would have more time to explore the options for the latter.

I'm still trying to cope with the ecstasy over voltages and speeds with both my i7-2600K (2.5 years old) and my "nothing special" Ripjaws 1600 RAM @ 1866 and 1.55V. I had previously found the sweet-spot for 4.6Ghz, and stopped fiddling with it between October, 2011 and the present.

. . . Until last week . . .

 

[Aikouka]

I've pretty much run full gambit at this point. I started with bowl-style air coolers, switched to AIO water coolers. I decided to play around with water cooling for a bit, but I ended up switching back to tower-style air coolers. Honestly, it works fine.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I've pretty much run full gambit at this point. I started with bowl-style air coolers, switched to AIO water coolers. I decided to play around with water cooling for a bit, but I ended up switching back to tower-style air coolers. Honestly, it works fine.

A lot of people are so adverse to the slightest noise, they may not ventilate their cases enough or explore the thermal control of CPU fans -- of various makes.

The other side of the coin -- voltage requirements seem to drop with progressive control of temperature. If you could reap a 10C improvement, you'd at least look at your options.

Apparently, there's a shared apprehension about the quality and longevity of the AIO units' pumps. I think I'd seen a few people here just in the last week who had that problem.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Mobo cooling is an often overlooked benefit of tower style coolers. I still prefer mid priced/sized air coolers like the 212 evo. The cost delta to get that last 20% of performance isn't worth it to me.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Mobo cooling is an often overlooked benefit of tower style coolers. I still prefer mid priced/sized air coolers like the 212 evo. The cost delta to get that last 20% of performance isn't worth it to me.

You might want to check out my thread here ("cases & cooling") about the ASUS Sabertooth boards, and how they attempted to do something nicely that we were trying to do back in '07.

Of course, a person can spend money, or they can spend time -- passed with tedium.

I still have this idea that I can build a mobo duct-plate with a "vent-box" that reaches up to the side of the tower-heatpipe -- which would suck air off the motherboard through narrow spaces, push it through the cooler and out the exhaust.

But if my LinX thermals for 2600K @ 4.7 Ghz are between 76 and 79C, and I have a 200mm fan blowing on the mobo, I'm not too worried about mobo-components getting hot . . .

 

[-slash-]

I have a 212 Evo and run a 2500k at 4.6ghz daily. I have the stock fan on it and it isnt turned up. It is quieter than stock for sure. Intel Burn test nets me 56*C max, average 33*C idle setup as is. This is also in a Thor V2 so I have lots of air being moved quietly by large fans.

 

[Fallen Kell]

If you want a silent computer that can still overclock, but don't want to go custom water, they really are the only solution.

If you want a silent computer period. Custom water is still louder than the large heatsinks/fans, even when doing moderate overclocking. I just tried to search for a roundup that was just done recently, but couldn't find it (not sure if it was a Tom's Hardware, Hexus, etc.), where they compared most of the closed loop water (i.e. non-custom) as well as 2 custom water (I think one used a Switftech pump, can't remember the other).

The large air heatsinks beat almost all the closed loop water systems in every category (including cooling performance), but where beat by the custom water for temperatures. However, the air coolers still beat the custom water for sound levels even up to max overclock (which wasn't as high as the max overclock achievable on water, but not by much). The water pumps are louder than the fans in these systems.

There are some LOUD fans out there which could make the air heatsinks perform better, but people don't do that really. They use them for being virtually silent, which you can't do with water.

 

[tolis626]

I see what you're saying guys,but giving away north of 80€ just for an air cooler seems wrong to me.Maybe what's wrong is my perception of what an air cooler can do.The biggest and until now the best air cooler I have used is an AKASA Nero.It does get the job done,but I'd expect that that's about as far as air cooling would go.Seems I had it all wrong and,given a cool enough environment around the PC,an air cooler can work wonders.I just saw at Tom's (I think) a Noctua NH-D14 besting the entry level Corsair H80i and competing well against a H100i.Factoring in the lower noise and (much) easier installation of an air cooler,while costs are similar,it seems that one of these will be my cooler of choice.I kinda like that ridiculous CM V8 GTS,but the question is,how does it fare against the Noctua?

 

[cytoSiN]

I see what you're saying guys,but giving away north of 80€ just for an air cooler seems wrong to me.Maybe what's wrong is my perception of what an air cooler can do.The biggest and until now the best air cooler I have used is an AKASA Nero.It does get the job done,but I'd expect that that's about as far as air cooling would go.Seems I had it all wrong and,given a cool enough environment around the PC,an air cooler can work wonders.I just saw at Tom's (I think) a Noctua NH-D14 besting the entry level Corsair H80i and competing well against a H100i.Factoring in the lower noise and (much) easier installation of an air cooler,while costs are similar,it seems that one of these will be my cooler of choice.I kinda like that ridiculous CM V8 GTS,but the question is,how does it fare against the Noctua?

If you don't want to spend 80€, stick with the tried and true 212 series for $40 (or less if you get one at the right time), and you've got performance nearly (but not quite) equal to the Noctua.

 

[tolis626]

If you don't want to spend 80€, stick with the tried and true 212 series for $40 (or less if you get one at the right time), and you've got performance nearly (but not quite) equal to the Noctua.

Any first hand opinions on the Be Quiet! coolers?They seem solid performers and look cool too.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

If you want a silent computer period. Custom water is still louder than the large heatsinks/fans, even when doing moderate overclocking. I just tried to search for a roundup that was just done recently, but couldn't find it (not sure if it was a Tom's Hardware, Hexus, etc.), where they compared most of the closed loop water (i.e. non-custom) as well as 2 custom water (I think one used a Switftech pump, can't remember the other).

The large air heatsinks beat almost all the closed loop water systems in every category (including cooling performance), but where beat by the custom water for temperatures. However, the air coolers still beat the custom water for sound levels even up to max overclock (which wasn't as high as the max overclock achievable on water, but not by much). The water pumps are louder than the fans in these systems.

There are some LOUD fans out there which could make the air heatsinks perform better, but people don't do that really. They use them for being virtually silent, which you can't do with water.

I've thought about this pro and con for years.

Add complexity to something, you eventually increase problems. That being said, a good custom water system CAN be problem-free. But the AiO options we have now seem to show some customers for whom the pumps failed, RMA etc.

Every time I thought I'd switch to water, CPU TDP dropped with a new generation, and someone came out with a more effective heatpipe cooler.

They may take up space, but heatpipes are -- technically -- "liquid" or water cooling. But there are no parts to fail.

On the fan noise, I may be repeating myself -- frequently posting here in the last week or two -- but that's the up-side of thermal fan control. When you don't need the RPMs, you avoid the noise. When you do - there are ways to reduce it, and it's only temporary.

 

[rgallant]

If you want a silent computer period. Custom water is still louder than the large heatsinks/fans, even when doing moderate overclocking. I just tried to search for a roundup that was just done recently, but couldn't find it (not sure if it was a Tom's Hardware, Hexus, etc.), where they compared most of the closed loop water (i.e. non-custom) as well as 2 custom water (I think one used a Switftech pump, can't remember the other).

The large air heatsinks beat almost all the closed loop water systems in every category (including cooling performance), but where beat by the custom water for temperatures. However, the air coolers still beat the custom water for sound levels even up to max overclock (which wasn't as high as the max overclock achievable on water, but not by much). The water pumps are louder than the fans in these systems.

There are some LOUD fans out there which could make the air heatsinks perform better, but people don't do that really. They use them for being virtually silent, which you can't do with water.

or just saying
I agree I just came up from the basement and yes rad fans can sing
lucky my system is in my office up stairs.
also my 2 gtx780 sli / cpu at full load make 0 noise or heat dumped into the room.
but for power supplies 1k I can't find a quiet one yet.

 

[MrK6]

If you want a silent computer period. Custom water is still louder than the large heatsinks/fans, even when doing moderate overclocking. I just tried to search for a roundup that was just done recently, but couldn't find it (not sure if it was a Tom's Hardware, Hexus, etc.), where they compared most of the closed loop water (i.e. non-custom) as well as 2 custom water (I think one used a Switftech pump, can't remember the other).

The large air heatsinks beat almost all the closed loop water systems in every category (including cooling performance), but where beat by the custom water for temperatures. However, the air coolers still beat the custom water for sound levels even up to max overclock (which wasn't as high as the max overclock achievable on water, but not by much). The water pumps are louder than the fans in these systems.

There are some LOUD fans out there which could make the air heatsinks perform better, but people don't do that really. They use them for being virtually silent, which you can't do with water.

Air does have the capacity to be absolutely quieter than water, but you sacrifice so much doing so it's not worth it from a performance perspective. A proper mount of a water pump will make it virtually silent and then you're back to fans. Also, radiators have the capacity to disperse much more heat than any air cooler, which then will be trumped handily.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Air does have the capacity to be absolutely quieter than water, but you sacrifice so much doing so it's not worth it from a performance perspective. A proper mount of a water pump will make it virtually silent and then you're back to fans. Also, radiators have the capacity to disperse much more heat than any air cooler, which then will be trumped handily.

My next system is going to use water. If I'm going to de-lid, then I'm going to jump in with both feet.