Do federal employees have it good?

[Lalakai]

Just as in the private sector, the work and pay will depend heavily on location, and type of boss/command structure. In my branch of government, our hours vary to a high degree on the customers we work with; there are times i'm in the office by 4:30 AM to prep for a concrete pour (site inspector) and other times I'm in the office after 6 PM as that was the only time I could meet with the folks requesting assistance. Supposedly we can only work a maximum of 10 hours per day, but when deadlines come up, we'll work weekends and evenings, and kiss those hours goodbye. We can schedule our vacations, have them approved weeks in advance, then have the state director decide on mandatory work, revoking all prior approved leave. I have a BS degree, and nearly 25 years in, and take home less then 60K. 3 times so far I"ve been told that my check is now waiting at "that" office, and it's time to bring out the packing boxes; now I'm commuting 60 miles each way, rather then pull my kids out of school and move them to a new district. 15% of my paycheck goes toward retirement, and they match 5%. $260 of each paycheck goes toward medical insurance. The work flexibility is nice, and if I keep up on my retirement payments, i'll have a decent retirement package. Prior to 2008, the contractors I worked with would laugh at my work hours and what I was paid; now they think I get paid too much.

Pisses me off to see a high level fed who has less field and contract knowledge then me, pulling down alot more then I, because of who they know. Yep, the "old boy" system is very prevelant in the gov't. The biggest saving grace for me are the times when the projects we work on, go in, function as planned, and the people are happy with what we've accomplished.

 

[tedrodai]

It depends on the field, but overall federal employees are now making more than contractors. Of course they have it good, but good luck getting into the government in this economy. Better have your Master's + be disabled and/or a veteran to get the job.

First line is bull shit. Contractors easily make more than federal employees almost everywhere. I've got a government engineering job (do have a masters though), and I happen to be in an organization that has a pretty progressive pay system (I'm not GS)...i.e. we're still a decent amount under the equivalent contractor pay, but the benefits/flexible schedule/job security make it pretty competitive. A few good people I've worked with have made the switch from contractor to govt or vice versa, but they were still weighing the pros/cons.

My brother is also an federal govt employee, as an engineer with a masters degree, and he earns about 1/2 of what I do, because he's in a different organization, different location, and is on the incredibly outdated GS system. You've gotta sacrifice an enormous amount of pay for many federal technical jobs.

 

[DCal430]

Rememeber over 75% of Federal Employees have no collective bargaining rights. They have no right to strike, and no right to unionize. They have fewer labor rights than most private employees.

 

[Nebor]

Rememeber over 75% of Federal Employees have no collective bargaining rights. They have no right to strike, and no right to unionize. They have fewer labor rights than most private employees.

Which makes you wonder how all the state and local governments got so messed up. No government employee should be allowed to strike.

 

[SP33Demon]

Rememeber over 75% of Federal Employees have no collective bargaining rights. They have no right to strike, and no right to unionize. They have fewer labor rights than most private employees.

And despite that, they still have to do something above and beyond to be fired. Who the hell needs a union when you can't be fired and are almost guaranteed pay increases?

 

[SpongeBob]

First line is bull shit. Contractors easily make more than federal employees almost everywhere. I've got a government engineering job (do have a masters though), and I happen to be in an organization that has a pretty progressive pay system (I'm not GS)...i.e. we're still a decent amount under the equivalent contractor pay, but the benefits/flexible schedule/job security make it pretty competitive. A few good people I've worked with have made the switch from contractor to govt or vice versa, but they were still weighing the pros/cons.

My brother is also an federal govt employee, as an engineer with a masters degree, and he earns about 1/2 of what I do, because he's in a different organization, different location, and is on the incredibly outdated GS system. You've gotta sacrifice an enormous amount of pay for many federal technical jobs.

This. I'm also an engineer with a masters and my org moved off of GS almost 10 yrs ago to a performance based system. Unlike before where step increases were a certainty, low performers i work with are getting no increases in base salary and only getting yearly cost of living increases, or else they refused to opt in to the performance based system (grandfathered) and are now topped out in their current grade (latter group will disappear eventually due to attrition). Of course this is still better for them than if they were in private industry where they would get shit-canned in a heartbeat, but at least we are making progress. That said, the engineering contractors I deal with definitely make more on average than I do. It's really not even close. But I have better benefits (health care, vacation, retirement, job security).

 

[Fox5]

I came across an article on CNN on top earning towns and the median family incomes in the DC metro area are $367,660 (Rank #1 Great Falls, VA), $191,677 (Rank #13 Potomac, MD), Tyson's Corner, etc.

For those workers mainly in the DC area, don't they have it good?
Aren't they grossly overpaid? I know people making a ton of money in the DC area for not doing anything. Their work hours are strict 9-5 most times and they have job stability. In the private sector, if a company is broke like how the US currently is, people would be losing jobs left and right.

At $367,660 for a 2 income household, those aren't federal employees. That's above the salary cap for federal employees...

$191,677 sounds about right for two government employees of 10 years or more. Almost everyone in government is highly educated too, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of federal employees had their masters.

It's also one of the most expensive areas in the country, everything costs more, so people are paid more. It's not Kansas, it's right up there with the nice areas of Cali and the New York City area.
It probably also depends on what federal jobs you're talking about. The federal pay for engineers and other technical fields is actually on the low side...

The government is massive too. Not every agency treats its employees the same way. Some have basically guaranteed promotions. Others rarely ever promote anyone. (isn't the government on a freeze for pay increases right now?)

 

[MarkXIX]

Lots of misinformation in here.

I am a GS-13, Step 2 and supervise sixteen GS employees ranging from GS-7 to GS-12. I bust my ass every single day in my job. I have a BA and four IT industry certifications including CISSP.

her209 posted the pay scales, let me know if you need an explanation. Bottom line is, the people in that area making those huge salaries are NOT the run of the mill GS employee like me. They are probably retired senior military officers drawing a fat retirement check and a consulting or contractor salary on top of that.

Hell, the only reason I broke $100k last year was because I am both a GS-13 as a Department of the Army Civilian and an officer in the Army Reserve.

 

[rudder]

Rememeber over 75% of Federal Employees have no collective bargaining rights. They have no right to strike, and no right to unionize. They have fewer labor rights than most private employees.

Civil service protection.... they have plenty of rights.

Federal employees should not be allowed to strike. End of story. And why would they need collective bargaining rights? These jobs are taxpayer funded... you get COLA raises... you know the pay scale... so don't take the job if you do not like the conditions.

 

[ModerateRepZero]

It probably also depends on what federal jobs you're talking about. The federal pay for engineers and other technical fields is actually on the low side...

The government is massive too. Not every agency treats its employees the same way. Some have basically guaranteed promotions. Others rarely ever promote anyone. (isn't the government on a freeze for pay increases right now?)

There's conflicting research which (overall) indicates that government workers are either slightly overpaid or slightly underpaid. Certainly for some positions such as technical or executive government pay cannot match that of, say, GE or Google.

You're also right that employee treatment (and also pay systems) can vary by agency. When I was thinking of applying for a civilian position at the Dept. of Navy, it was a "pay bands" system I think. And lastly, yes Obama froze government pay for 2 years, but it applied to side grades, not to (automatic) pay grade increases.

 

[marvdmartian]

The problem with most of these articles, is that they fail to take into consideration that their numbers are badly skewed when they don't realize that a great number of federal employees are located in high cost of living areas, which affects their wages (Washington DC is a prime example), AND that those areas also have a substantial number of high-end executive and managerial level GS/GM (white collar) employees.

Especially in the DC area, where you have so many cabinet level positions (care to take a WAG at how much each "Secretary of...." position pays?, let alone their assistant secretaries, and other high-end managerial positions??), as well as all the "Czars" who have become so popular in recent years. They also count in every federal politician (yes, they are federal employees) and their staffs, which amounts to a healthy chunk of change.

For the other 98% of us, we make a wage commensurate with our local cost of living, and that's exactly what they base us on. GS employees make a flat rate salary, with a cost of living allowance added in some areas, to make up for a higher COL. Wage grade (WG, blue collar) employees have a range that their pay can fall into, depending on the local wages. Higher cost of living areas usually pay higher (i.e.-Hawaii or Alaska), but not always, as it depends on what the local wages are for similar trades.

When I first got into civil service, back in 1992, in Guam, I started out at $11.40/hour (as a WG-08), then got into a higher responsibility position (WG-10), that paid a little over $12/hour. After 4 years, my wage was up to just over $15/hour. However, due to a fluke, where Guam is allowed to bring in "H-2 workers" (foreign nationals brought in to do construction work, from Korea, Philippines, etc), and the fact that those H-2 workers don't get paid shit (construction electricians were making ~$15/hour, versus probably over $20/hour they'd get if they were non-union electricians in the states), it dragged our WG pay scale all the way to the bottom of the range.

To make it more clear, our cost of living was equivalent to that of Hawaii (I paid $650/month for a 1 bedroom apartment, $4-$5 for a box of cereal or a gallon of milk, etc), but our wages were ~$3/hour LESS than Hawaii's. Nice, huh??

In fact, the federal employees that don't live in the few ultra-high cost of living areas, and make a "regular" wage, actually see a wage lower than what their non-federal counterparts would probably see, especially in the white collar areas. They make that up, somewhat, with decent benefit packages, though in recent years they have by no means been cheap (just cheaper than most employers would probably offer).

We don't have the job security that people think we do either, as that's entirely up to the fickle decisions of how much money Congress is going to appropriate for our agencies. When they don't pay enough to keep people employed, then people get laid off......same as anyone else. In fact, the Air Force (who I currently work for) just announced a 90-day freeze on ALL hiring, and they're going to look at offering early retirements and buy-outs (severance pay for those not eligible for retirement, but who volunteer to leave civil service) in the very near future, to cut back on the number of employees they have (tho not a word peeped on cutting back on general officers, which every branch of the military is very heavy with! ). This, after just a month or so ago, they announced that for every 4 employees lost (people who left their jobs due to transfer, retirement, etc) we would only get one replacement.

So please, don't think that we all sit around, being unhelpful, taking breaks every 15 minutes, and not doing shit. I'm fortunate to work with some of the best professionals I've ever had the pleasure to work with, and who are willing to do what's needed to get the job done right the first time. Being a DoD employee, many of us are veterans, and bring the same professionalism to the civilian workplace that we were taught in our military days. We just don't wear the uniform any more.

 

[marvdmartian]

Civil service protection.... they have plenty of rights.

Federal employees should not be allowed to strike. End of story. And why would they need collective bargaining rights? These jobs are taxpayer funded... you get COLA raises... you know the pay scale... so don't take the job if you do not like the conditions.

How about you get your facts straight? Federal employees are NOT allowed to strike, period. Ever since the Air Traffic Controllers (FAA employees) tried that, back in the Reagan days, all federal employees have had to sign a statement (usually when you first come into the system), that states that you understand that you cannot go on strike, and if you do, you'll be fired. Period.

Federal employees are allowed to join unions, but that's more to prevent the occasional bad supervisor from abusing their authority. There are rules to be followed, all laid out in the various manuals for supervision, but some people fail to follow those rules, and the employee needs to have a route to address those issues. However, NO federal employee is required to join a union, and the union has to give the same service to non-members (with the exception that the union will not provide a non-member the use of a union attorney, if the fight goes that far, and the employee wants to sue their employer).

We currently do NOT get COLA raises, since that was frozen (for up to 5 years). That means that even though the cost of living continues to go up, and the cost of my benefits continues to go up, my wages will remain the same. The only raises that may happen are longevity raises, which occur roughly every 2 years.....but even those are no longer guaranteed.

And yes, we do realize what we were getting into when we went in to federal civil service. Lower wages, but a more favorable benefit package to help make up for that shortcoming. Hopefully now YOU are more educated about what you're talking about??

And despite that, they still have to do something above and beyond to be fired. Who the hell needs a union when you can't be fired and are almost guaranteed pay increases?

Time for you to do a fact check there, Scooter. Federal employees CAN be fired, just like any other employee. Due to the outdated rules and regulations in the system, it takes some effort on the part of the supervisor to make certain they have their ducks in a row, and if the supervisor is too lazy/stupid to do it right, then they're stuck with a bad employee (not that different than outside the system).

And just like any other employee, in or out of the federal system, you can be fired for breaking the law. Hell, when I worked for the Navy, in Guam, one idiot working in the warehouses got canned when he was dumb enough to try to steal $25 worth of steak knives (carried in the stock system, to be ordered & used by the ships, as well as the shore chow halls).

So far as the "almost guaranteed" pay increases, read my reply (above) to rudder.

Man, I tell ya.....I spend more time educating people!!

 

[Nebor]

(tho not a word peeped on cutting back on general officers, which every branch of the military is very heavy with! )

http://www.stripes.com/news/gates-memo-includes-cuts-to-102-flag-general-officer-positions-1.138794

 

[marvdmartian]

http://www.stripes.com/news/gates-memo-includes-cuts-to-102-flag-general-officer-positions-1.138794

Sadly, Secretary Gates isn't around anymore......and that was a pitiful number to begin with.

Do some research, and you'll discover that even though the size of today's US Air Force is a fraction of what the Army Air Corps was at the end of WW2, they have more general officers than the AAC did. Um......why??? :hmm:

 

[Nebor]

Sadly, Secretary Gates isn't around anymore......and that was a pitiful number to begin with.

Do some research, and you'll discover that even though the size of today's US Air Force is a fraction of what the Army Air Corps was at the end of WW2, they have more general officers than the AAC did. Um......why??? :hmm:

At some point we developed a culture of promotion based on time in service, not qualification, and so you have to have a place for all those O-6s to go. Meanwhile we have a critical shortage of senior O-3s and O-4s with no end in site... That said, we have a much more technical military with many small, specialized services that are under a GO, though Gates argued that many of them could be run by O-6s instead.

Regardless, if you're not in the military your opinion on the matter holds little value to me. And if you're a DoD Civilian, I hope you get testicular cancer.



Way over the line.

Take a week off. Yours is a history if insulting members and this needs to stop, now


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[Drekce]

Regardless, if you're not in the military your opinion on the matter holds little value to me. And if you're a DoD Civilian, I hope you get testicular cancer.

I hope you get banned for this. Who do you think is responsible for building all of the equipment that our soldiers have at their disposal? DoD civilians. If I was a software engineer working for Google I would be hot shit, but because I work for the Army you hope I get cancer? People like you piss me off to no end.